Closed Is the community become fragile?

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Physical contact and simulated physical contact (e.g.,textual descriptions like "*hug*" or"*backrub*") without consent or after a request to stop
Was consent given for these "Big virtual hugs and spoons"? Does this not violate the code? A code that makes everyone feel welcome is one thing, but if the creator of the code is a recipient of a violation the day after it is released, that says something. It says creating this in private without any community feedback has resulted in something that is sub-optimal. I trust good intentions were involved, but this top-down edict is not sitting well with many of us.
 
I'm not privy to internal affairs at The FreeBSD Foundation/Project and see this as a CYA preventive measure.

I remember the virtual hug thingy, it was big in chat back in 2000. I've never seen it done since, much less here.

I'm not in the habit of calling anyone by anything but their handle in public discourse, under normal circumstances. (My disclaimer and only defense.)

I'm happy when I see a, and I'm risking it here, a "female" member of the forum, but my only indication or presumption they are is by their avatara. But I'm always happy to see new members.

This thing isn't going to effect me in the least as I see. I'm here for the OS. it's more a point of debate IMO than what will be a burden on me or how I conduct myself.
 
... a real life example which actually showcases a serious problem with it. I also consider it interesting how some critics can do little more but to ridicule it instead of providing solid argumentation why the whole thing would be bad.
...and I'm also pulling out of the discussion a bit because I really don't see the point anymore :)
You all except people like roddierod and giahung1997, who actually experienced themselves what this totalitarian do-gooders' hypocrisy means, do not get the point.

The new CoC is that what we Germans and Scandinavians call a "Gummiparagraph" respective "Gummiparagraf".

It means a vaguely formulated law that can (and will) be interpreted arbitrarily.
The thing these Gummiparagraphs have in common is that they superficially read innocent and sensible, but hide their true meaning and intention.

Just to name one example from the "CoC": "Unwelcome comments".

Can one define this clearly? No, this is impossible.
The ruling group can declare practically everything that is not 100% conforming as "unwelcome" and take that as grounds to put someone into the KZ or the Gulag.

Or, as in the FreeBSD case, just expel these people.
And everybody else who just asks what did (s)he do, was this actually wrongdoing, risks getting the same treatment.
In short, such is a inherent property of totalitarian dictatures.

The only ones who in this thread violated the CoC were the CoC's creators themselves, with any impunity. Some people seem more equal than others.
I experienced a totalitarian dictature myself, most of you did not.
So it is really sad for me to see how ignorant you all appear of this frightening development.

Regarding the alleged lack of "solid argumentation":
For my part, I experienced this problem very recently again when I was banned from a local academics club because I do openly criticize these developments happening in the society and warn against the dire consequences this has for freedom of expression, which in turn is a prerequisite for democracy.
But, as famous Karl Marx said, who does not know history is doomed to repeat it...

As do not want to be part of a totalitarian community, I am now in the process of migrating away from FreeBSD to DragonFly, too.

SJWs have never done any open source product any good. A presumed "tech" community that encourages people whose hobby it is to feel discriminated against to waste everybody's time with enforcing the "correct usage of pronouns" has lost the war.
Isn't this true? The Meltdown/Spectre thing became public on Jan 3.
DragonFly BSD gurus released patches just two days later.
And FreeBSD team doesn't have more important things to do than wasting their time with debating and imposing some totalitarian censory laws.
FreeBSD users have to wait until at least August before they get patches for Meltdown/Spectre.
Doesn't this make every sensible people shake their heads in disbelief?


Edit: An excellent movie I recommend to watch.
 
As a new member not just here but to the whole idea of UNIX I'm quite surprised to have come across this thread on this forum. Especially after posting q's in the wrong place, misinterpreting simple direction, blowing my system to smithereens etc and not one jab at me was given.
 
No, I'm not a member of the FreeBSD community. Or more accurately: If the FreeBSD community put the matter to a vote, the weight of each vote needs to be proportional to what each member has contributed to FreeBSD. Since I have not checked a single line of code into FreeBSD ... (summary) I do not count

I disagree with you, these are the motivations:

1] FreeBSD is not only code, it is code + documentation + forum + donations. Without the very good docs and this precious forum I guess many have would remained on Linux.

2] If you contributed with code, documentation, answered qustions on the forum or made a donation you are and *active* member.

3] You have contributed a lot to the forum. And more than 280 of your contributions have been considered useful by other people. So, you ARE wihout doubt a member of this community. Indeed, your time investment on the health of the FreeBSD comunity probably equals that of some developers.

=> Your voice count.
=> From the "political" point of view your voice is even stronger than that of many developers since you are known to many other forum users.
 
As do not want to be part of a totalitarian community, I am now in the process of migrating away from FreeBSD to DragonFly, too.

Please Snurg, don't leave, let's take some actions instead !

I don't consider a good policy to run away when there is a threat, let's fight it.
Who knows, maybe we migrate to some other OS today and tomorrow we have a arbitrary Code of Conduct even there.

If Snurg, Trihexagonal and aragats which are the three people I interacted most will leave I will consider leaving as well. But I don't think is the right move.

If somebody helps me we can open a petition online and collect votes. As you see my english is approximate, I need some assistance.
 
Don't be excessively annoying
Don't be easily annoyed
I am new here & like this responsive technical forum much. On public forum there may be some not up to the choice. Better way is to ignore. I feel moderators, daemons and other members are doing very well and count all as same. Every matters related to unix & OS are important to us only.
 
I have been a lurker on these fora for quite some time. I made an account specifically to respond to this thread because this is a topic that has me concerned.

I have been a FreeBSD user (migrated from Linux) for about 6 years now. Really enjoyed the ride and the vast majority of my experience has been exceptional using this operating system. But lately the house seems to be showing cracks in its foundation.

I suspect it very much has to do with increasing corporate influence in FreeBSD development. This is not inherently bad, but too much of it can be problematic. You can see this in Linux as well, but since Linux has such massive mindshare (among open source operating systems) it is not as visible because there are so many different groups packaging the kernel in so many different ways.

The BSDs in particular are interesting due to their size. While they are complete operating systems with their own teams and different directions, given that most developers need to eat to live, it is possible that a large company can simply buy up all the native developer talent of a BSD and take it into a completely different direction. They can do this silently via sponsorship of different projects, or they can do this in other ways.

I suspect this is probably what happened to NetBSD when Wasabi Systems went bust and withdrew its support. NetBSD doesn't seem to have much in the way of leadership or direction now and it shows. OpenBSD on the other hand has a very clear mandate and a very clear vision of what they want their OS to be and their developers are exceptionally proficient at digging in with their knuckles and making it happen.

DragonFlyBSD has very gifted leadership and is probably the silent giant in the room. DragonFly is the BSD most likely to take the performance crown and surpass FreeBSD as the superior storage OS of the future. The big data of tomorrow is scale out and clustered over vast networks, not scale up a single node and "add more RAM". There is only so much you can scale a single node and ZFS cannot and was not designed to be a clustered storage platform.

You see the mantra that "he who pays the bills makes the rules" is a general truism no matter which side of the fence you are on. In general FreeBSD's culture seems to be more and more dominated by corporate influences...American corporate influences to be exact. They will silently inject their own politics into the projects that they fund and the atmosphere in the US right now is that everyone gets offended by everything and when someone gets offended they will sue you.

Make of it what you will.
 
Just to name one example from the "CoC": "Unwelcome comments".

Can one define this clearly? No, this is impossible.
The ruling group can declare practically everything that is not 100% conforming as "unwelcome" and take that as grounds to put someone into the KZ or the Gulag.
That only holds true if you apply selective quoting, as you did.

If you look at the whole paragraph you see something "a little bit" different:

  • Unwelcome comments regarding a person's lifestyle choices and practices, including those related to food, health, parenting, drugs, and employment.
And I can easily come up with a definition for this. IF I also look closely at the intention behind the CoC, something which people also seem to be ignoring:

These rules are intended to ensure a safe, harassment-free environment for all and to ensure that everyone feels welcome both working within, and interacting with, the Project.
.

SO let's see... What would make a comment unwelcome? Maybe if the receiving end isn't appreciative of them because they directly address personal topics which have no place in the conversation? So (negatively) addressing a persons lifestyle choices and practices?

You're basically doing exactly what I mentioned in my rant: making accusations of thought crimes. The CoC is bad because it could be theoretically abused. But there's a huge difference between "could be abused" and "is being abused".

Wake me up when there's actually something going on :D
 
A lot more lives have been ruined by the things you those who some of you call SJW's fight against than by SJW's. Sure, there's definitely over reaction, but ask some of your female friends--as I'm sure all of you are guys--if they've ever been date raped. Then ask your male friends who will probably say something intelligent like, Yeah, I wish.

If you're going to leave FreeBSD because there's a code saying respect women, I guess you're in the right country with a president who feels it's OK to grab a woman if she appeals to him. Just want to remind you, some states will lock you up for that, so if you're in one of 'em, you better move if you want to be consistent.
 
If Snurg, Trihexagonal and aragats which are the three people I interacted most will leave I will consider leaving as well. But I don't think is the right move.

If somebody helps me we can open a petition online and collect votes. As you see my english is approximate, I need some assistance.

I have no intent on leaving, and I already run 2 OpenBSD boxen so it would be easy to do so. I have a play Frameset site made up and mine could look completely different in 1 minute. But I don't run from a fight, for one thing. I'm part of this community for another, for better or worse.

First off, I don't know what anybody looks like behind their avatar unless they've shown me a picture of themselves. Nor do I care. I like knowing people from all around the world, and do, and when new members join if I see they are from another country the more I like the diversity and try to make them feel welcome.

I don't tolerate bigots and can point out my past actions here to verify it, which at best skirt forum rules. If you pick on someone, expect me to show you what it feels like. It's such a big thing with me I probably jumped the gun and did so by mistake the last time.

The PC turn is the most ignorant brain-dead movement I've seen in my life. And I'm not young. Now it's invaded these forums and look how it has split the ranks and deteriorated us from within in just one day. I bet those palemoon people are laughing themselves sillier.

The bad part is, not one word from the mods or Admin has been said about the COC to effect any of us here, I did say "female" and didn't get warned/banned yet. it's all self-driven and like a cancer that has spread quickly.

Do I think someone putting 8 parenthesis on each side of my name violates my personal space or is a sexual advance? Get real, people. It might make me wax nostalgic for a moment and I'd probably think it funny, if not a little goofy, but it's not on the list of things that offend me.

Snurg, I am particularly distressed to see you thinking about leaving. It would be a loss to the community. I could be totally wrong, I have been before, but I think you're stretching it a little with Animal Farm. Yes, I have the movie and have watched it before.

I worked 9 years in the mental health field, was the advocate for the rights of my clients and sat on State Board of Inquiries for allegations of abuse and neglect. I am still keenly aware of the rights of others and when they are being infringed upon. It's probably why I find myself jumping into a situation to do what in my mind is stand up for others to this day.

No, I have not lived in totalitarian countries like some others do, but I'm not ignorant of the ramifications or the history of it. This is the most, and can be for lengths of time, the only interaction I get with society. I don't like the way it's going, am able to remove myself from it and stay to myself most of the time. I can probably ride it out and be gone before it breaks down into civil war, or whatever the end result witll be.

I hope that's not the way you feel about it here, Snurg.

Nicola Mingotti, your English is very good and I would be more than happy to help. But can tell you now it won't do a bit of good IMO. Do you actually think that even 10,000 signatures on a petition is going to make Corporate FreeBSD (I can't believe I even said that) change their COC? I don't, but will help you draw it up and sign it if you like.

My only hope is the community doesn't fracture or split off into splinter groups. I'm on record as against political or religious discussion in the forums because it inevitably results in discord, and here were are.
 
I think the point is that it shouldn't be political. People should not 'import' their political leanings, ideals and prejudices into software development, no matter how righteous and moral they may believe their particular standpoint to be. There is already too much of that crap
I think the point is that it shouldn't be political. People should not 'import' their political leanings,

You misunderstood completeley my use of the word "political". Even if I put into quotes you took it literally. It has nothing to do with socialism, Obama, and Trump.

I used the word politics as in this quote from Aristotele: "man is political animal".

You are in a community right now, like it or not, if your actions are aimed at influencing the community rules or functions you are actions are politics. Like or not the word is that. (I don't see any more appropriate word).

Introduction of SoC is a political action.

If you do not agree with it and you dare to change it than you are going to take other political actions. As e.g. ask for a vote, start a protest etc. if you belive the community is even vaguely democratic.
 
Four pages of posts on a single thread in a single day. Now THAT'S sensitivity. I think this is a society/world problem rather than a FreeBSD problem, and so I more or less blow it off as not very relevant. None of these online communities are really going to be much different than society at large when it comes to CYA measures. Society will end, and FreeBSD will continue on, sans the PC eventually. It looks like a lawyer wrote the CoC, I agree with that, but WOW - the cartoon is ridiculous. I can't see any motive to change operating system preferences over this. Back to my coffee now.
 
Nicola Mingotti, your English is very good and I would be more than happy to help. But can tell you now it won't do a bit of good IMO. Do you actually think that even 10,000 signatures on a petition is going to make Corporate FreeBSD (I can't believe I even said that) change their COC? I don't, but will help you draw it up and sign it if you like.

Trihexagonal, actually I don't know if I will get something good out of a petition. It is too short time I am in. I will wait a bit and see how this thing evolve, I don't want hurt this community in any way possible.

Personally I don't find the CoC so frightening, but it is a step in the wrong direction IMHO. We have moderators here, we don't need that stuff. Tomorrow they could say we are required to use "he/she/it" on each pronoun, which thing I would strongly dislike;)
 
Wow, alot has been said already, don't know how much more to add. Just some recent news
stories regarding US Congress requesting the major Social Media platforms to come to Washington DC. This FreeBSD Forum is a social media platform. So, therefore, it makes sense to have a "Rules of the road" like a "Code of Conduct" in order to abide by as a social media platform.

It is a wakeup call for all FreeBSD community to be "civil" within the "community."
The Wild West of the internet is likely to become much more regulated for advertisements,
in particular.

Heck, I have been too harsh in some criticisms already posted by myself on this forum.
I will try and be a better member of this community.

EDIT: A new book written by Emily Chang, of Bloomberg, is now out. It basically paints a very
poor picture of silicon valley employment by women in the IT industry. I'm reading alot into this
thread to make a conclusive leap; saying this may be precursor to incoming lawsuits - against FreeBSD and its community - I have read alot of posts with legalese lately, maybe 'people' have lawyered up already.
 
I reacted a little on what Snurg said and it would be a shame to see you migrate to other. I couldn't really make the connection to totalitarism through the CoC. To me it's as some of us pointed out: "A lawyer's text". The rules are set and they are in accordance with feministic value ground.

My own experience tells me that they are formed a lot from the gaming culture, more than this corporative tech development. (Maybe because I lack experiences in the latter.) Not sure where the roots of Geek Feminism come from but I know that the "virtual hugging" is used as harassment through emotes in some games. Saw recently on a stream where a group of men teamed up on a female player running her down with guns or axes only to be massively teabaging her corpse. Sure it's hilarious but she didn't seem to be as appreciative.

Maybe it's as [whoever said it] said that the CoC could be formed more cohesively for this forum and community itself but I see no wrongs in having them this way.

@bookwormep, Maybe we are going civil.

I don't see this as too big of a deal. Also one reason why my interest in FreeBSD started was because I read that the system is used for high level servers, so having it run without corporation plans or ideas seems to me a little sketchy way of thinking.
 
The FreeBSD Code of Conduct is okay and I think it's well within bounds of any other standard Code of Conduct out there today.

Here is an example of where there will be a problem:

"Comments that reinforce systemic oppression..."

This is so broad you can drive a bus through it, because it is fundamentally meaningless. For instance, were a white male to criticise any given implementation, he is guilty of above, because of the nebulous application of the ideologically motived intersectional construct of 'privilege'. Thus, people will be sanctioned for simple discussion.

Don't believe me? Look around. It is already happening.
 
Here is an example of where there will be a problem:

"Comments that reinforce systemic oppression..."

This is so broad you can drive a bus through it, because it is fundamentally meaningless. For instance, were a white male to criticise any given implementation, he is guilty of above, because of the nebulous application of the ideologically motived intersectional construct of 'privilege'. Thus, people will be sanctioned for simple discussion.

Don't believe me? Look around. It is already happening.

I think that it's more about stating faulty generalisations about people who indirectly or directly will be treated as less worthy in the subject. Things like: "You belong in the kitchen" and "lalalala".
 
...Thus, people will be sanctioned for simple discussion.

Don't believe me? Look around. It is already happening.
Can you give a concrete example? I do not remember any case of someone being thrown out of the FreeBSD forum, or prevented from checking in code, due to a simple discussion.

In Linux, this happens somewhat more frequently. The best example is probably Tridge (Andrew Tridgell), who was thrown out of the Linux "core group" after his reverse-engineering of the BitKeeper protocol angered Larry McVoy and Linus Torvalds.

And before over-reacting to this, it would be a good idea to listen to the perspective of kernel developers Valeria Aurora (former known as Val Hanson, instrumental in developing ZFS and union mounts) and Sarah Sharp (of USB 3.0 fame).
 
And before over-reacting to this, it would be a good idea to listen to the perspective of kernel developers Valeria Aurora (former known as Val Hanson, instrumental in developing ZFS and union mounts) and Sarah Sharp (of USB 3.0 fame).

I remember Sarah Sharp's news back in 2015. She felt 'technically respected' but didn't like the communication style of the kernel maintainers, so she left. I don't think there's much more to be said. If you're at the level where Torvalds is yelling at you, you're already breathing the thinnest air of Mt. Olympus.

Valeria Aurora is clearly a superb software engineer but her latest direction has lost me. A bit like when Spinal Tap did Jazz Odyssey. Sorry.
 
First, that illustration is an embarrassment to its creator(s). The bytes that represent that image are humiliated. Is there a Code of Conduct anywhere that protects un-creative expression that terrible? If I express what else I think of it, I will be banned for a month.

Secondly, why is there suddenly a lot of problems, when it is like yesterday everything was fine? Are those voices coming from a FreeBSD competitor or an organization who wants to use misuse FreeBSD as their platform? Are they using social media as their launching pad?

Last, but not least, the Code of Conduct:
While following it is no problem to many and I, as it is written, is no good.

I've given reasons why FreeBSD needs a code of conduct that is homegrown, BSD related or based from public domain, and not one based off of a project with unrelated problems and background.

It is also inappropriate to get specific about mis-gendering and old names, because this is showing a different bias, where there should neither be discrimination, or promotion on this basis. It is common knowledge that references to he or she are written as "he/she" or "he or she", and in my opinion, for lack of a better pronoun, just use "they".

This can easily be covered with:
  • Reference people by their handle or chosen name.
Also:
  • No discrimination based on gender, sexual orientation, religion, race, ethnicity...
  • Politics and religion are off topic discussions.
includes this.

Consensus is a much better solution than holding a vote. It was a good intention to want to vote. A vote (I'm not opposed to it for reasons of totalitarianism) risks causing or increasing rifts in the community, will cause an opportunity for trolls, and it will leave some group of common users unhappy. With consensus: does it satisfy Moderators' criteria, is there general consensus among contributors, is it fair to serious users? Is it generally agreed upon by opposing arguments of, whether they like how the new Code of Conduct is written?

For anyone who is toxic that their (seemingly primary) objective or personality is to cause discord and chaos, I will spell it out for you, L-E-A-V-E! Not a problem yet, and there are no specific cases, but it needs to be said for any serious project.
 
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