Closed Is the community become fragile?

Status
Not open for further replies.

MMacD

Active Member

Thanks: 15
Messages: 116

There should be no need for a code of conduct except in environments whose mores cannot be inferred from those of everyday civilised life. Is the world of FreeBSD such an environment? Not that I've noticed, but to me the os is a tool, not a pastime, so I might be oblivious.

I've been around a fair long while (I was born during the Battle of Britain), and my training, both formal and experiential, is relevant here.

Any code of conduct should, at most, remind people of the basic socialisation nearly everyone receives in early childhood:
  • Try not to do anything to someone else that you'd dislike if done to you. We're all in this together, and everyday life is already hard enough.
  • You are the sole judge of who you are, what you want from life, and how the behavior of others affects you. But you are not in any way a valid judge of who other people are, what they should want from life, or how they should react to your behavior or that of others.
  • If someone tells you you've offended them, apologise and stop doing whatever that was, at least as it applies to that person.
  • If you find that, no matter how much you conform your behavior to someone's wishes you are continually giving offence, do a reality check with people you trust who aren't getting told off. Then act accordingly, perhaps by avoiding the serially-offended person/people.
  • Do your share; clean up your messes; help when you can.
 

Trihexagonal

Daemon

Thanks: 524
Messages: 1,036

I and others have begun contacting people and corporations on the FreeBSD Donor List:

FreeBSD Foundation Donors List

Making them aware of this completely unwelcome ideological fiasco and the reactions from the greater development community.

Don't worry, I'm sure all of them will continue to want their donated funds to be used to support a small group of ideologues hijacking the project.

So you are a troll after all.
 

Atarian

Member

Thanks: 14
Messages: 21

However did FreeBSD survive without a CoC like this? These forums were like a cross between 4chan and a warzone, it was terrible. Developers eating babies while compiling a new version of Clang, driving with their fog lights on in daytime, that sort of thing.

...Except it wasn't. Because people are basically decent, particularly from academic or technical backgrounds. This CoC is completely unnecessary.
 

scottro

Daemon

Thanks: 418
Messages: 1,237

There is a code of conduct for the forums, which has been around, and another for the FreeBSD organization itself. They are two different things.
 

Atarian

Member

Thanks: 14
Messages: 21

There is a code of conduct for the forums, which has been around, and another for the FreeBSD organization itself. They are two different things.
That's irrelevant. The meaning behind the post remains. Being a d&%k has never been acceptable, which means the CoC is still unnecessary.

One of the awesome things about Open Source is that nobody even knows (unless you tell them of course) anything about you. Your acceptance is based on the quality of your code alone.
 

Trihexagonal

Daemon

Thanks: 524
Messages: 1,036

There is a code of conduct for the forums, which has been around, and another for the FreeBSD organization itself. They are two different things.
Technically, it does apply to us:

This code of conduct applies to all spaces used by the FreeBSD Project, including our mailing lists, IRC channels, and social media, both online and off. Anyone who is found to violate this code of conduct may be sanctioned or expelled from FreeBSD Project controlled spaces at the discretion of the FreeBSD Code of Conduct Committee.
https://www.freebsd.org/internal/code-of-conduct.html

But you're right. There is and has been a Code of Conduct for us in place long before I came here in 2012, and it works for me. I plan to continue on as I have without any change. If that violates new terms and they see fit to sanction me, so be it.

Though I will admit to choosing different youtube video than "She's As Beautiful As A Foot" by Blue Öyster Cult to post this morning, just to be on the safe side. :)
 

ralphbsz

Daemon

Thanks: 710
Messages: 1,205

One of the awesome things about Open Source is that nobody even knows (unless you tell them of course) anything about you. Your acceptance is based on the quality of your code alone.
Nonsense. Like all communities, acceptance is based on a variety of factors, and a large fraction of that is familiarity, reputation, and personal interaction. If Kirk McKusick wanted to propose a modification to *BSD today, people would listen to him, same with Eric Allman wanting to change Sendmail, Linus Torvalds or Alan Cox wanting to change the Linux kernel, and Stephen Tweedie and Ted Ts'o wanting to change the ext4 file system. We wouldn't even look at their code, because their opinions are highly valued due to their long history.

Is there a dress code?
On the internet, nobody knows you are a dog. Or that you're programming while wearing a neon-colored grass skirt and nothing else.
 

drhowarddrfine

Son of Beastie

Thanks: 869
Messages: 2,718

I've pointed out trolls on this board before and have been banned for 30 days for doing so. Why PrestonGranite and his ilk are allowed to be here, I do not know, but I fear being banned for 30 days again for saying so.
 

Snurg

Aspiring Daemon

Thanks: 326
Messages: 794

sidetone, PrestonGranite has brought very important points in post #103.
Every point of a potential CoC should be checked:
what is intended with a proposed rule, what can be the consequences of [addition of | abuse of | deletion of ] a rule, and which rules are actually necessary?

We must also weigh: Do we want innovation and quality?
Can then there really be way around a meritocracy?

Or do we want endless debates with rididulous outcome?
The current priority setting in the shine of Meltdown, geek fandom femdom feminists battling for dominance by imposing a COC as basis for tyranny of the lesser-gifted and lesser-productive, has damaged FreeBSD already beyond cringeworthiness.

What do you ladies and gentlemen think about starting another, constructive, discussion about what would actually be necessary in a sensible Code of Conduct, which ideally should be so short that it is easy to memorize in detail?
 

gomuko

New Member

Thanks: 2
Messages: 2

I have created a new account to use on this forum from now on, because I understand what happens once the kind of characters that write and enforce CoCs like this are like. They will agitate and attempt to ruin the professional careers of anyone involved in this project. I honestly recommend anyone who cares about FreeBSD to do the same as you are all targets in their eyes now. I would go as far as advising you to change the way you write posts, don't even hint at any identifying information. Post commits as normal and delete any social media account you have.

...Except it wasn't. Because people are basically decent, particularly from academic or technical backgrounds. This CoC is completely unnecessary.
This is the problem, the CoC has set the tone. This won't end well and it will attract precisely the kind of people who think this tone is necessary. They're not here to build, they are here to destroy and enslave. I'm not giving up on FreeBSD over this but this is a very sad development.
 

sidetone

Aspiring Daemon

Thanks: 313
Messages: 915

I blame the people who wrote the CoC as much as I blame the trolls. Some of us have brought up good points about it, and there is much agreement about it how to be fair but reduce unnecessary empahsis while upholding it, but they are ignored, or the people who made it went on vacation.

At a work place, someone choses to put Ms or Mr in front of their first name, to identify them as the new gender they identify with, and we call them by that name, and we show respect to them as people (I don't agree with their choices, but I keep that to myself, and show them sympathy like other people.) I call them the name they say, simply because they say this is their name. The work place has a Code of Conduct, that simply says don't discriminate on certain basis. Why is this so difficult for people who write rules to understand?

They will agitate and attempt to ruin the professional careers of anyone involved in this project.
It doesn't go that far.

This won't end well...
I'm not giving up on FreeBSD over this but this is a very sad development.
If they don't wake up and listen to reasonable voices.
 

drhowarddrfine

Son of Beastie

Thanks: 869
Messages: 2,718

gomuko That is ridiculous. Nothing will happen to you. No one cares. in a couple of months this will all be forgotten for another number of years since the last blow up over one person feeling disrespected. Quit letting headlines on the internet ruin your life. It's as bad, and worse, as watching TV "news". You're probably smarter than that.

Does anyone remember that big financial sit down thing everyone was crying about a couple of years ago? I can't even remember the name of their group.

EDIT: Oh.Yeah. The occupy movement. Remember them?

When you wake up tomorrow morning, are you going to race to your print out of this code to check to make sure you lead your life tomorrow in honor of that? Will you even think of it? I know I don't even think of this thread till I click on the "New Posts" link.

Decent, moral, normal every day people don't need a code to follow. Those who are not decent, moral or normal won't follow any code.
 

gomuko

New Member

Thanks: 2
Messages: 2

gomuko That is ridiculous. Nothing will happen to you. No one cares.
You cannot be sure, and given the recent history of open source development, even a small chance that you can become a target of a hate mob should be multiplied by the amount of damage you can take. Anything you write can be taken out of context, in this tone and atmosphere.

I will limit my contributions to purely technical ones, I don't regret meeting the people I have met before in this wonderful community but will have to gradually fade my more personal manifestations in it. I really like where my life is heading, love my job and don't want to risk bringing harm to my family over the vindictive hatred coming from people who wish to destroy open source communities for the benefits of large corporations.

I love FreeBSD, I won't give up on it. They won't succeed in destroying this project, don't let them.

EDIT: I will also say be careful from trolls around this period. The terrible decision from core to enact this change has opened the door to long time detractors of FreeBSD. I'm not surprised about the usual suspects popping up to mock FreeBSD and advertise their Finnish operating system as a substitute...
 

sidetone

Aspiring Daemon

Thanks: 313
Messages: 915

Why didn't they put the definition of "misgendering" in the glossary? Look it up.

I don't like having to call someone by a label that I don't understand. For instance, I will refer to someone's child as their kid, and they reply, "that's not my kid, that's my son!" Makes no sense to me, but I only go by what they say, because otherwise, they will act like I'm antagonizing them, and I'm more sensible than to want to upset them.

To accuse of misgendering children is wrong, it reinforces an idea and it forces everyone else reinforce that idea, which they are not at least an adult to make a big decision.

I once made an honest mistake at a work place, because on first glance I thought someone was a she, so I said maam, then I looked again, I tried to correct myself, so I said sir. Honest mistake, but I guess the word deliberate makes a difference.
 

OJ

Daemon

Thanks: 253
Messages: 1,038

"that's not my kid, that's my son!"
Possibly a joke. The word kid properly refers to a young goat in English, and only recently has become common use as a reference to young humans. In some English speaking cultures we play with language a lot like that. :)

But you're quite right. Whatever people want to be called is the right thing to call them. When I was young no one used the word gender in the sense we're using it nowadays. That does not mean that we were not capable of being respectful in those days. There have always been sexualities of many kinds and every human is essentially unique anyway - in all their aspects. Frankly I don't bat an eye when someone introduces themselves with some name that's difficult to pronounce and using a pronoun I've never heard of which has yet to hit the charts. That's cool. I don't need to turn such an encounter into a lesson in proper English grammar. That is not the place for that. That is the place for simple respect.
 

sidetone

Aspiring Daemon

Thanks: 313
Messages: 915

Possibly a joke. The word kid properly refers to a young goat in English, and only recently has become common use as a reference to young humans. In some English speaking cultures we play with language a lot like that. :)
It wasn't a joke, he was serious. The context of that was missing on here. He told everyone that. Both are correct, but I don't want to avoid a label I'm used to, unless there's a scientific reason for it. Well, according to proper English, "kid" is slang, but everyone says it.
 

OJ

Daemon

Thanks: 253
Messages: 1,038

It wasn't a joke, he was serious. The context of that was missing on here. He told everyone that.
Gotcha. :) A guy with a chip on his shoulder. And indeed people like that breed a bad feeling. To me the trick (sometimes difficult) is to ignore that as much as possible so as not to make it worse.

Edit: Someone with a chip on their shoulder is not going to learn and it's not my job to teach them. Also, I noticed that there's some people posting in this thread who are offended by someone being offended. I think such recursive psychology is particularly amusing on an IT forum.
 

sidetone

Aspiring Daemon

Thanks: 313
Messages: 915

Gotcha. :) A guy with a chip on his shoulder. And indeed people like that breed a bad feeling. To me the trick (sometimes difficult) is to ignore that as much as possible so as not to make it worse.

Edit: Someone with a chip on their shoulder is not going to learn and it's not my job to teach them. Also, I noticed that there's some people posting in this thread who are offended by someone being offended. I think such recursive psychology is particularly amusing on an IT forum.
I wouldn't say a chip on their shoulder, but being uptight about it. Or they think I need to learn that.
 
Thanks: OJ

elgrande

New Member

Thanks: 6
Messages: 13

I tried already making my point clear to some persons that defend and like this CoC.
I found out there is no way to have any of my arguments regarded as valid. In fact I am (sometimes implicitly, sometimes explicitly) accused of being someone who harasses people, since I am against this code of conduct.
I have been over 10 years into FreeBSD now. Not a big contributer or something. Just a user and programmer who from time to time contributed minor stuff while just being at it.
Don't get me wrong, in all the years and all the conversations, I probably did never anything that would have violated that new CoC. Except maybe expression something like "a virtual hug" after solving a difficult problem with the help of someone, but I actually do not recall since there was nothing of an issue or something. Besides this, quite some of the contents of the CoC are somewhat consistent with my political / social view of the world I think. Some are not, but simply by trying to be a polite person, I never do something which is meant to insult a person which is "affected" by my opinion. Just to illustrate with an example: I can do both: Be against discrimination and be against changing and prohibiting a hundred years old fantastic literature so that it is politically correct. Opinions can have a lot of nuances.
But since even slight criticism against this CoC is causing being treated rudely, I am taking consequences.
Since I am an enthusiastic programmer, when using open source software, I will most probably contribute a little bit from time to time.
But I will not contribute a single line of code to a project that is based on a politically driven and excluding political view. There is nothing "inclusive" about this CoC it effectively with just exclude people with different opinions.
I came to FreeBSD also because of the "free" and I recall the "good old times" where the project was kind of wild west with tech freaks. Yeah people were talking rough from time to time and could be hard if you were technically wrong, but actually I rarely experienced any community that was less insulting or bullying than this community. Just tech people. Totally unpolitical by the way.
Long story short. I like the BSD world and be taking a look at DragonFly and OpenBSD, maybe I find a new "home" there. If not, then just no more BSD.
Leaving makes me sad, since I had great times with FreeBSD. Regarding all the times I will not leave with a final reproach.

THANK YOU FREEBSD FOR ALL THE TIMES. THANK YOU PEOPLE FOR ALL DISCUSSIONS WE HAD AND ALL THE SOLUTIONS WE FOUND.
WE HAD WONDERFUL TIMES, BUT I WILL NOT GO THIS WAY WITH YOU.
FAREWELL AND ALL THE BEST.
 

OJ

Daemon

Thanks: 253
Messages: 1,038

politically driven and excluding political view
I find it difficult to see how this CoC (or just about any CoC) could possibly be seen as "political". No offence, but to me that is a bit strange. I admit though, that I may be getting old and politics is no longer what it's been in my previous 60 years of involvement.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top