Closed Is the community become fragile?

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Cthulhux

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#2
SJWs have never done any open source product any good. A presumed "tech" community that encourages people whose hobby it is to feel discriminated against to waste everybody's time with enforcing the "correct usage of pronouns" has lost the war.

I remember when FreeBSD had their previous encounter with them. Some developers resigned as a follow-up. It's sad that this project has not learned anything from it. Nothing was wrong with keeping everything not project-related strictly off the project. Except if you have green hair and a shrill voice and nothing better to do with your life.

blakkheim's observation might have been tongue-in-cheek, but the point behind it is rightfully made.
 

Ole

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#5
I just saw this in response to FreeBSD's new CoC. Are people really becoming this sensitive to what is supposed to be a highly technical product?

Interesting topic. I have been thinking about moving from FreeBSD to OpenBSD for a long time and, apparently, I will do it (after 18 years of using FreeBSD). At one time FreeBSD was in every second company. Today, the Core team is more interested in political issues related to women's rights than technical ones. No one else (including Core members ) uses FreeBSD. And no attempts to fix it. It seems that this is not my project anymore, unfortunately.
 

Sensucht94

Well-Known Member

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#6
I may be the only one thinking so,but this code of conduct makes me feel even more proud of belonging to this community and gives one more reason to believe that this is the best OS in the World. I don't see any particular sign of weakness,laziness or a badly hidden request to join, finance and support the conmunity.

A CoC has just to establish the rules of behaviour required in order to build a polished, cooperating, effective and comfortable working environment for all the teams to be well coordinated and productive, and this CoC does exactly so in my opinion
 

roddierod

Aspiring Daemon

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#7
I may be the only one thinking so,but this code of conduct makes me feel even more proud of belonging to this community and gives one more reason to believe that this is the best OS in the World. I don't see any particular sign of weakness,laziness or a badly hidden request to join, finance and support the conmunity.

A CoC has just to establish the rules of behaviour required in order to build a polished, cooperating, effective and comfortable working environment for all the teams to be well coordinated and productive, and this CoC does exactly so in my opinion
Except that in every known instance so far just being accused has made the person guilty with no recourse and has weakened the project in my opinion. I've used FreeBSD since 1997 and maintained ports and help debug drivers for release and I'm actively moving away. Just my $0.02.
 

drhowarddrfine

Son of Beastie

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#11
There is a new movement about, I'm sure you all noticed, where everyone is offended by everything. There can be no jokes because some minor group will be slighted even in its obviousness. We need to choose our words wisely and, perhaps, have a nearby PR person monitor what we say and how we say it.

I notice this more in large cities, specifically Chicago where I frequent, but you see it in the East coast media and the liberal west coast. My son, who moved to one of those cities, all of a sudden is offended when I talked about, years ago, seeing a wonderful tribal dance by an American Indian organization, because I used the word "Indian". "It's Native American," he said with a scowl while "native Americans" apparently have no issue being called Indians. So how and why is it his place to defend these people?

I'm sure some in that group will be offended by this statement and, let's face it, if there were no women in tech we wouldn't be having this discussion, but if one said something offensive to a woman years ago, a man would step in front to defend her honor. Nowadays you can get arrested for doing such a thing and ruin your career and maybe even be chastised by the community for not letting the woman "take care of herself". Of course, others may chastise you for not stepping up, too, and that adds to the confusion of life today.

What I do is ignore it all. It means nothing to me and doesn't affect me. It is their problem, not mine. I look at the people around me and realize we're the normal ones and we carry on our business. Unfortunately, some read headlines from non-vetted "news" services and think it must be true from the mouth of God and lead their lives by the rule of reddit.
 

Sensucht94

Well-Known Member

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#13
I can concur that this "detailed" list of rules looks a bit ridicolous at first glance; I hate the fact that in modern society our spreading hypocricy lead us to make laws that penalize anyone whom is seen as an outside voice. Really that's crazy. People aren't free to speak any longer unless they want to be victim of false righteousness and stupid burocracy.

However, it's not the law to be incorrect, rather the ones in charge of applying them.

In this case the CoC isn't incorrent (despite clearly a bit too exagerated), the main problem is how is it going to be applied

And if what roddierod said is true, then he already proved me wrong and FreeBSD is doomed, but if things are going to take a different path in future and moderators will apply the CoC with reason and common sense, then a bright future awaits FreeBSD.
 

drhowarddrfine

Son of Beastie

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#14
Except that in every known instance so far just being accused has made the person guilty with no recourse and has weakened the project in my opinion. I've used FreeBSD since 1997 and maintained ports and help debug drivers for release and I'm actively moving away. Just my $0.02.
Again I say, this "movement" started with Linux so what are you moving to?

Another question, in what way is any of this directly affecting you?
 

Cthulhux

Active Member

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#15
I guess the OpenBSD team gets enough attention through OpenSSH. This is not about "attention", this is a repeated reminder about OpenBSD not falling into the same traps as the FreeBSD team.
 

Trihexagonal

Daemon

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#17
Is this really enough to start just another flamewar Open- vs. FreeBSD?
We're both already in one with palemoon and need to stick together.

Harassment includes but is not limited to:

Comments that reinforce systemic oppression related togender, gender identity and expression, sexual orientation,disability, mental illness, neurodiversity, physicalappearance, body size, age, race, or religion.
And I'm probably already in trouble for naming my screenshot examples "normal" and "skinny"...
 

sidetone

Aspiring Daemon

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#18
I don't see anything wrong with it, except the related parts on misgendering/dead names. I don't agree with it, but I do agree with the part that people want to be called what they want to be called anyway. So it's the emphasis on misgendering/dead names that I disagree with. I treat people with respect, even if I don't agree with what they do, or don't understand why anyone would want to change the identity they were born as.

As for the rest, every place has rules. These rules are not much different than a workplace. If there's any sensitivity present, it's the reactions to having rules. Fair rules just means that corruption and abuses of power are less commonplace.

Without rules and fair enforcement of them, it will create a community like a Copenhagen zoo, that encourages discourse from the subject of the goal of the project or forum.
 

sidetone

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#21
There is something I don't like about it. FreeBSD should make their own code of conduct, and not rely on basing their off of Wikia. Their code of conduct is in response to problems that are their sister projects, and never were from the FreeBSD community. They've chased members away by encouraging and rewarding uncivil behavior, and this is not an issue at FreeBSD.

For them, they're just words with no teeth nor true desire to fix them, and an overcompensation to their problems. Basically, there it is a free for all, in terms of whoever causes the most disruption is seen as correct. FreeBSD has always held its guidelines, and didn't need those rules which were a false compensation by a different community.

This is why I respect the way FreeBSD forums are run, everyone plays by the same rules. Some things I saw as trivial, like you must type FreeBSD as "FreeBSD", but they were harmless, and I understand it's a part of branding.

At FreeBSD, the moderators understand what toxic behavior is like, Steve Jobs' or Linus' behaviors. So for FreeBSD to base their guidelines off of Wikia's, which is an overcompensation to their sister communities that encourage anarchy, any behavior is acceptable if everyone agrees, and incivility, is misguided.
 

drhowarddrfine

Son of Beastie

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#22
Without rules and fair enforcement of them
The only purpose of written rules, in this context, is to keep the lawyers happy and give management something to use to fire someone. Otherwise, no one goes to participate on a technical web site or any group and stops first to read a "code of conduct".
 

sidetone

Aspiring Daemon

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#23
The only purpose of written rules, in this context, is to keep the lawyers happy and give management something to use to fire someone.
That's at Wikia's sister projects. They're: everyone votes use mob mentality, even if it is encouraging illegal, negligent, deadly or otherwise bad behavior. edit - Their administration is legally worried about the wrong things, so when their community members vote for shit, they don't take a stance so they can claim they are not responsible for anything, while at the same time being fully aware of it.

Please FreeBSD, make your own guidelines, and don't base yours off of Wikia's, whose problems are not inherent in the FreeBSD community.
 

roddierod

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#24
Again I say, this "movement" started with Linux so what are you moving to?

Another question, in what way is any of this directly affecting you?
Well, I been using dragonFly and I like that...but I screwed up my install doing stuff with hammer that I didn't understand. I have always like OpenBSD but have all nvidia cards otherwise it would be that.

As for how it effects me...it more personal, I guess. As a person who probably classified as one in the groups "being protected" it irrated the f**** out of me that I can see people obviously trying to figure out how to talk to me without offending me and it really seems to me like pandering. It also seems to cause more problem than it solves and since I'm close to 50 and been in this industry for 20+ years, I really can't figure out where all these young people getting offended are coming from. It seems more to me that people are assuming they are being criticised from being a women or a majority than the actual fact that you might just be an a**hole or you code just might not be any good. I have seen it first hand and that hate that more than anything else. I could go on and on with this tract but I irrates me and probably will become inchoerrent and move away from FreeBSD's CoC. I think it boils down to you can't legislate compassion toward others it just ends up doing the opposite.
 

sidetone

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#25
It seems more to me that people are assuming they are being criticised from being a women or a majority than the actual fact that you might just be an a**hole or you code just might not be any good. I have seen it first hand and that hate that more than anything else.
It's not the case at FreeBSD. That's a problem at Wikia's sister projects. They have a reputation for chasing women off, and they have tried to do damage control by making phony baloney rules, which have no merit or sincere backing. FreeBSD is making the mistake of taking their rules seriously enough to base their guidelines off of a community which has those rampant problems.
 
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