Closed Is the community become fragile?

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ralphbsz

Son of Beastie

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I remember Sarah Sharp's news back in 2015. She felt 'technically respected' but didn't like the communication style of the kernel maintainers, so she left. I don't think there's much more to be said. If you're at the level where Torvalds is yelling at you, you're already breathing the thinnest air of Mt. Olympus.
I don't consider that to be "the thinnest air of Mt. Olympus"; there are a lot of people who contribute to Linux at the kernel developer level, and if you know them, they are just perfectly normal everyday people, good researchers, developers and software engineers, who happen to have an interest in the kernel. There are also a lot of people who don't bother contributing to the kernel, because it is below them: there is another air level above Mt. Olympus, and it remains perfectly breathable.

However, the communication style of the center of the Linux community is ... awful. Linus has the habit of exploding, sometimes for good reasons, and sometimes unreasonably. He is a "dictator for life"; alas, he is not at all benevolent. While he is personally a friendly and charming person (you should try having a few beers with him), his style of dealing with conflict in the kernel community, and dealing with people who for some reason or no reason upset him is awful, and has turned lots of people away from working on Linux. Sarah Sharp is just one example. What is even more troublesome is that the fraction of people who have been "drummed out of town" is significantly higher among female and minority kernel developers. When I say "minority", you have to be careful to not understand that solely in terms of skin color, it can also be about lifestyle, sexual orientation, or color of your paycheck (there is significant discrimination based on who your employer is). This is bad; from a purely selfish viewpoint, it is bad because it prevents some good developers from contributing to the progress in "systems" (operating, file, storage, network, ... systems). I know quite a few of these folks personally (Larry McVoy lives very near me, Tridge used to be a colleague, and I've had the aforementioned beers with Linus), and it pains me that good people can't get along. An interesting counter-example of a community that functions better is Python (even though I don't know Guido personally, he was the office-mate of a friend of mine, and I have first-hand information that Guido is very friendly and reasonable). There is a reason that Guido was the model for the title of "benevolent dictator for life", since he is actually benevolent, unlike Linus.

If the FreeBSD CoC were to prevent developers of the calibre of Sarah Sharp from quitting the FreeBSD community, it would be a success. Alas, the internal style of FreeBSD is quite different from that of Linux, and as such the CoC is much less necessary in FreeBSD.

Valeria Aurora is clearly a superb software engineer but her latest direction has lost me. A bit like when Spinal Tap did Jazz Odyssey. Sorry.
Love the Spinal Tap reference! Few people would probably grok it.
If you have communicated with Val for many years, or read her blog, you will understand her direction. It takes a while to understand where she comes from. If you are in the tech industry in Silly Valley, and see the trials and tribulations of your female (or gay or minority) colleagues all the time, her direction won't be lost on you. Well, unless you are Peter Thiel ...
 
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PrestonGranite

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Sorry, but I thought we already had a Code of Conduct here:

https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/freebsd-forums-rules.38922/

Seems like it's been working fairly well up to this point. Is there really going to be a need to change it?

Just a few examples.

Try not to take offense where no offense was intended.

That line in the FreeBSD Code of Conduct(CoC) shuts down the ability of professional victims cry harassment without actually any harassment or use the CoC has a weapon to wield against anyone they deem not ideologically pure.

That line had to go.


FreeBSD is a meritocracy.

That line in the FreeBSD CoC was met with cries of outrage. It acts as a guard against SJW Entryism - where open source projects are taken over by SJWs who have no interest in a project or any ability to add value to a project.

That line had to go.


Comments that reinforce systemic oppression

That line from the FreeBSD SJW CoC was added because SJWs are some of the most hateful and bigoted people you will ever meet. 'Rules for thee and not for me'. Standard Cultural Marxism garbage. It establishes that there are Victims and Oppressors and that the CoC is only to be used against Oppressors.

You can't have a SJW takeover of an open source project without the proper CoC to use as the basis for the takeover.

The much ridiculed 'virtual hugs' is being laughed at all over the Net as being some silly Nanny State type over-sensitivity But in reality it nothing to be laughed at. You can't be a professional victim if you don't have anything real to be victimized by. You need as much ammunition as possible to be offended or threatened by. That is why these SJW CoCs have these ridiculous amounts of what on the surface appears to be petty crap.

Ideally for a SJW they want to have a CoC that allows them to claim harassment over any interaction with someone they deem an ideological enemy. Unfortunately you have White Knights falling over each other to prove just how virtuous they are adopting this garbage.

node.js and Drupal are two of the most recent examples of what is now and will be happening to FreeBSD:

* SJWs combing through project members social media and other personal information looking for wrongthink
* Secret backchannel communications going on by the Ideological Enforcers
* Attacks and efforts to kick out members for wrongthink while blatant CoC violations by the Ideological Enforcers go unpunished
* Everyone not toeing the ideological line is labeled alt-right, neo-nazi, gamergater, white nationalist, sexist, transphobe, etc.
 

ralphbsz

Son of Beastie

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... because SJWs are some of the most hateful and bigoted people you will ever meet. 'Rules for the and not for me'. Standard Cultural Marxism garbage.
I'm sorry, but that is nonsense. If you work with some of the people you label "SJW", you'll find that they are very far away from being "cultural marxist".
Furthermore, I would suggest that you read "Das Kapital", to understand what Marxism actually is. Hint: it is about economics, not culture. You are using it as a swear word here, without understanding what it means, which makes it fall flat.
 
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PrestonGranite

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I'm sorry, but that is nonsense. If you work with some of the people you label "SJW", you'll find that they are very far away from being "cultural marxist".
Furthermore, I would suggest that you read "Das Kapital", to understand what Marxism actually is. Hint: it is about economics, not culture. You are using it as a swear word here, without understanding what it means, which makes it fall flat.

Cultural Marixis != Marxism

I don't understand how in 2018 someone doesn't understand that.
 

forquare

Well-Known Member

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Given we know that there are few developers here, this isn’t the place to report bugs, and I’m guessing there aren’t many Core members here, lastly we know most of the project discussion happens on the mailing lists; has anyone registered their objections where it could actually make a difference?
Or are we just shouting at each other on here?
 

geek

Member

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Maybe it's time to switch to TempleOS? I bet it won't have these kind of CoCs any time soon. Its creator Terry Davis seems somewhat politically incorrect. It is also better than Linux, runs blazing f***ing fast, and its public domain code is even freer than FreeBSD's BSD licensed code, among other things.
 

drhowarddrfine

Son of Beastie

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She felt 'technically respected' but didn't like the communication style of the kernel maintainers, so she left.
Did she want to be treated "like a lady"?

See, that kind of thing gets me every time. Where some person or group wants to be included and treated the same so they get included and treated the same but wants everyone else to change to their own way.
 

ralphbsz

Son of Beastie

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It's funny: I grew up in a time and place where real marxism still existed and was nearby, and where the complete works of Marx and Engels were a favorite gift. I only know of two uses of the term "cultural marxism". One is within an academic setting by a group of German philosophers centered around the Frankfurter Schule, which I'm quite familiar with. My high school music teacher was a friend of Theodor Adorno, and had studied musicology in Koeln, and german literature and history in Frankfurt. We read Adorno's music theory books in high school, in particular his book or essay about popular music and jazz (which in the late 60s was memorable for being so not in tune with the times). His use of the term is clearly in an economic context, where he derides the then-current popular music industry as a capitalist excess to both extract money from the masses and dumb down the proletariat, and proposes a marxist economics of creating music, centered around modern music (Schoenberg, Webern, ...) and twelve-tone composition.

The current use of the word is within the alt right as an illogical swear word, which does not understand the original definition.

Personal side remark: As an amateur musician, I am very fond of exactly the kind of music that Adorno condemned as exploitation of the working class; I love listening and even more playing things like Leroy Anderson and Eric Coates, and the whole genre of "light classical": so much fun! And I detest twelve-tone music (with very exceptions, I can tolerate Berg's violin concerto in small doses). In modern german music, I'm most fond of Hindemith (and I studied music theory from his textbook), and Hindemith was both musically and politically an arch-conservative. One of the high points of my (short and unglamorous) musical career has been to participate in playing Hindemith's Symphony in Bb for wind orchestra; a political counterpart was being allowed to play the snare drum solo in the "Valdres" march, which is clearly music for bourgeois entertainment (there is a pun in here that only band geeks will get).

Sorry for being off-topic.
 

k.jacker

Aspiring Daemon

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This thread is a shame and should take an end here...
Discussing the best phrasing of the CoC by shouting at each other is against any rule of a friendly community anyway.
I'm really worried that so much aggressiveness might harm the overall will to help and learn from each other in the future.
Why has it become so hard our days to calm down?

And I wonder why people who obviously hate FreeBSD, it's communitiy, it's CoC or whatever, do not leave it alone...?
I will not! This is my OS. I have used it since 2001. It was the first OS I ever used. It's the only OS I use. I love. I'll keep it!
 

sidetone

Daemon

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It isn't some sort of amazing coincidence that the only person using abusive language in a thread of people maturely and respectfully discussing the FreeBSD Code of Conduct fiasco is from one of the people directly responsible for it.
Unfounded accusation against other user.

It is the same in every open source project that is infested with creeping SJWism.
I am suspicious about people who cry about that. They claim that they don't want rules or they shouldn't have to follow them, then they make rules that assist with abusing or manipulating power.

I personally and my company both donate every year to FreeBSD. Not a single penny ever again.
If you feel this way, so abruptly, why are you still giving us your opinion? Stop dictating.

As your first post on this forum, I find this horrible business decision highly unlikely as no true businessman with any acumen at all would base such a thing on social media postings and not technical merit.
 
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PrestonGranite

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Maybe it's time to switch to TempleOS? I bet it won't have these kind of CoCs any time soon. Its creator Terry Davis seems somewhat politically incorrect. It is also better than Linux, runs blazing f***ing fast, and its public domain code is even freer than FreeBSD's BSD licensed code, among other things.

I don't see that as viable option for real world production systems.

* OpenBSD
* Linux

are the only two realistic options.

Ideally there will be a fork and we will have sane FreeBSD and SJW FreeBSD going their separate ways.
 

ralphbsz

Son of Beastie

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This thread is a shame and should take an end here...
Well, this thread is certainly unpleasant. Same with the thread in General about the same topic, seen in the light of (through the blinders of?) the BSD license.

But I think it is important that this discussion is had, and that a record of the discussion persists. Because anyone who reads the 5 pages of this thread and that other thread will see where the opposition to the CoC comes from, and how it argues. In and of itself, that observation will already strengthen the support for the CoC.
 

Phishfry

Beastie's Twin

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Transgender identity is considered a mental illness by the World Health Organization (WHO).
 

Nicola Mingotti

Well-Known Member

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Sorry, but I thought we already had a Code of Conduct here:

https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/freebsd-forums-rules.38922/

This is a beautiful CoC that was written by one of us and is directed specifically to us. I support it 100% . There is in it some sense "chivalry" and "fairness". There are a lot of nice words as "co-operation", "kindness", "gentleness", "friendly". And the forum is like that, a great place !

The new one seems written for a bunch of 12-13 years olders throwing icecreams each others all the day. The only positive word is "inclusive".
There are a lot of things that do not apply to us e.g.
---
Comments that reinforce systemic oppression related togender, gender identity and expression, sexual orientation,disability, mental illness, neurodiversity, physicalappearance, body size, age, race, or religion ....
---
We don't know each other face, let alone gender, color, or discapacities ! This is not Facebook !

In the end, I guess we should let this thread die, this new code of conduct is a dumb subset of our good and well written forum code of conduct. Let's hope our friends will decide to stay.
 

michael_hackson

Active Member

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Transgender identity is considered a mental illness by the World Health Organization (WHO).

I will strengthen: That is to make trans-operations (gender correctional operations) legitimate and also to enlighten the struggles many transgender persons go with. It's never about giving them any kind of crazy factor or pejorative term. It's another topic though.
 

drhowarddrfine

Son of Beastie

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This thread is a shame and should take an end here...
Completely agree. Should never have started. I see no point in discussion among the "general population" who aren't directly involved with those who have their own communication means. This code was written by them and for them, not us.

Now, one can say we may have an opinion or concern about it and that's fine. Take it up with them. I don't come here for that and neither does anyone else. If you think you did, you would have brought this subject up much sooner.
 

Trihexagonal

Son of Beastie

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Transgender identity is considered a mental illness by the World Health Organization (WHO).

Phishfry, this is purely as an observation for the sake of clarity.

I did not see the date quickly of when that was added to the DSM-5, but saw that homosexuality was removed in 1973 so I am making the assumption it was added before that date.

As reference, in the 1970's we used Behavior Modification as a programming method in the mental health field. Negative Reinforcement for Inappropriate Behavior = induction of painful stimulus for bad behavior. It's outdated and outlawed now, but was standard practice in those days in State Facilities.

Now they use Behavior Management = Positive Reinforcement for Positive Behavior.

I'm only trying to point out what was deemed appropriate and inappropriate in those days is not always the same as what is deemed as such today.
 
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