Closed Is the community become fragile?

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giahung1997

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I live in a country of communist (aka extreme leftard) and I'm know it. You American/European just plain stupid to allow leftards ruining your country, strip away your freedom but still happy to vote for them, I can't understand.

Only crazy people with a very big big self/ego and have nothing to do, you guys called sensitive, feel offended about nonsense thing. Reject them, because if you surrender to them like now they eventually abuse it to hurt you, ruin you, destroy you and then still offendsive about nonsense thing. You can't please them, accept it.
 

sidetone

Daemon

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I live in a country of communist (aka extreme leftard) and I'm know it. You American/European just plain stupid to allow leftards ruining your country, strip away your freedom but still happy to vote for them, I can't understand.

Only crazy people with a very big big self/ego and have nothing to do, you guys called sensitive, feel offended about nonsense thing. Reject them, because if you surrender to them like now they eventually abuse it to hurt you, ruin you, destroy you and then still offendsive about nonsense thing. You can't please them, accept it.
The definitions you used are inaccurate.
 

ShelLuser

Son of Beastie

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Back in the old days, there was FidoNet, and it only had two rules:

Don't be excessively annoying
Don't be easily annoyed

Those worked well for years.
2:2801/0 & 2:2801/13 here and no, there were WAY more rules than that.

In fact, people made a career out of debating and discussing those stupid rules instead of acting in the best of everyones interest. FidoNet is a good example why FreeBSD needs this CoC I think.

Heck, the Netherlands, despite being one region, even managed to split itself into the Free nets (FreeNet & TotaalNet) and the "official" networks and they even refused to exchange data with each other. Why? Because of their dumb interpretation of the rules, and because people didn't respect the wishes of the Free networks in refusing to take money from their points and nodes. They/we insisted that if you ran your own node or wanted to become more (like a hub) then you should keep in mind that it was going to cost you money for keeping your BBS running 24/7.

FidoNet was, in my opinion, a political snakepit. And a good example why it's better to spell out the do's and don'ts.
 

k.jacker

Aspiring Daemon

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IMHO the content of the CoC is not important.
Most people are intelligent and polite enough to make it obsolete, but it's still neccessary to be there as a reference for people that don't follow the unwritten rules of every good community.

I'd like to remind all of you that the starter for this thread was - again - a completely meaningsless
post that should have been ignored (not here on the forum, but on Twitter).
The poster on Twitter will surely smile a broad smile now..
Mission accomplished I would say. Crap got read, crap got shared, some likes earned and a war started.
Now we are shouting at eachother inside our own community over some braindead shit on Twitter.
 

sidetone

Daemon

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IMHO the content of the CoC is not important.
Most people are intelligent and polite enough to make it obsolete, but it's still neccessary to be there as a reference for people that don't follow the unwritten rules of every good community.

I'd like to remind all of you that the starter for this thread was - again - a completely meaningsless
post that should have been ignored (not here on the forum, but on Twitter).
The poster on Twitter will surely smile a broad smile now..
Mission accomplished I would say. Crap got read, crap got shared, some likes earned and a war started.
Now we are shouting at eachother inside our own community over some braindead shit on Twitter.
Phrasing is important. While many know how to act, phrasing an emphasis implies there's a problem here, that has not been, and it exacerbates problems from those who don't know how to behave. FreeBSD should not base any guidelines off of a dysfunctional community, whatsoever. Rewrite it from scratch, without emphasis, while keeping the general idea of civility, or base it off of a functional community's guidelines. This Code of Conduct is getting politicized over where its emphasis lay, on the faults where it is originally based from is trying to correct.
 

Snurg

Aspiring Daemon

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I live in a country of communist (aka extreme leftard) and I'm know it. You American/European just plain stupid to allow leftards ruining your country, strip away your freedom but still happy to vote for them, I can't understand.

Only crazy people with a very big big self/ego and have nothing to do, you guys called sensitive, feel offended about nonsense thing. Reject them, because if you surrender to them like now they eventually abuse it to hurt you, ruin you, destroy you and then still offendsive about nonsense thing. You can't please them, accept it.
So true.
Formerly people saying things which caused cognitive dissonances to the totalitarians were accused, denounced and expelled from society, even jailed as "counterrevolutionary".

Today the mere accusation of, for example, being "racist", is sufficient to annihilate people.
And then it does no longer matter what, for example I, actually said.
Because then the branding is done.
And everybody is afraid of also getting branded, for merely asking "what did he say? Did he actually say racist [or counterrevolutionary or whatever] things?".

I still remember the long hours I got interrogated by the political police in [communist] Eastern Germany.

It is so sad to see how you Westerners are throwing away your liberty.
Your Founding Fathers still remembered the Inquisition. And now you are hailing a new kind of Inquisition.
https://www.counterpunch.org/2015/08/10/liberals-and-the-new-mccarthyism/
 

Nicola Mingotti

Well-Known Member

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i think we ARE the FreeBSD community, if we don't like something we can call a vote and work (fight?) to make it right !
 

ralphbsz

Daemon

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No, I'm not a member of the FreeBSD community. Or more accurately: If the FreeBSD community put the matter to a vote, the weight of each vote needs to be proportional to what each member has contributed to FreeBSD. Since I have not checked a single line of code into FreeBSD in my life, and since I only support FreeBSD by occasionally donating a little to the foundation, and buying Kirk's books. As the weight of my vote should logically be zero, it makes no sense to allow me to vote, or even call me a member of the community.

Funny coincidence: Today, I did not have a copy of the most recent edition of the book with me; I tend to not carry it everywhere I go, instead it sits on a bookshelf at home. But I was in a room with Kirk, so I walked up to him at a break and apologized that he won't have the opportunity to autograph the book today. Fortunately, the previous edition (the reddish 4.4 one) is already autographed.
 

Handsome Jack

Member

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This topic is getting popular .... ( LINK )
[edit : Added short description as user Datapanic recommended ]
Bryan Lunduke on his (popular) Youtube channel released episode dedicated to this topic, "FreeBSD outlaws virtual hugs":
The FreeBSD project -- an Open Source operating system -- has added a fun new item to their Code of Conduct: they now expressly forbid "virtual hugs" (such as an animated .GIF of a teddy bear hugging a kitten) without prior consent. This is true. This is not a joke. And that makes it way, way funnier.
Now, I do not watch shows of this type (somehow I always know what will be said), I was just atracted by headline.
 

michael_hackson

Active Member

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I can say that to me the CoC is very clear and straight forward and it's not the first time I witness a "perhaps exaggerated" CoC – that is because I operate by common sense and I think that the target group of CoC is the people lacking common sense.

Regarding the trans topic I think it's a modern approach at showing in text that we are focused on being inclusive of all kinds of people and for someone being trans that may be great to see in CoC, also every feminist or just any person seeing to treat others with respect should have no trouble with this. Changing over to another OS only because the "focus in CoC" is not as pleasant feels to me a little over the top.

My personal view is that I think that both OpenBSD and FreeBSD are needed. I have had some people speaking of the eventual perks of using Open over Free but where I am at now I have only seen pros at sticking purely to Free and learn that first. The community is stable and also it's development seems stable enough. The "issue" that it's run by corporation is not a real issue to me, using that as an argument to use Open or any other instead is to treat your inner little hacker child in a way you maybe even won't benefit from.

I like that FreeBSD's community is open and that I feel included in this.


Ps. Not updated on the topic but I have read a lot of women feeling harrassed or unwelcome in gaming and tech related communities. Not so hard to understand because I am quite keen on seeing where sexism is applied or people are portraited in a sexual way and many of the new popular games I've watched has been unappealing to me with their main feature: "sell violence and sexualised women". Call me Christian but I am not into bullshit that much.
 

bsdimp

New Member

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Messages: 11

Today the mere accusation of, for example, being "racist", is sufficient to annihilate people.
Except no where in the CoC is that said. There's due process protections, as well as provisions for proportional response. Let's not let current dysfunctional politics color things here, shall we?
 

sidetone

Daemon

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It can simply say, no discrimination, and to call people by the name they choose to be called on here. All FreeBSD needs to know is, your opinion on software, and contributions to FreeBSD.

The code of conduct should be similar to what's in a job handbook of public domain text. That covers all bases.

Holding on the the way the code of conduct is written, is going down the wrong path. Get a better example to follow.

I realize that women are made to feel unwelcome in many communities, which the Code of Conduct is based on one from such zoo community, whose sister community ran off most female contributors. In FreeBSD, there is much evidence that the moderators are fair and understand the importance of civil discourse. Make a code of conduct that is fair to women, and all groups. I haven't seen any discrimination by the moderators here. It appears to me, what I've written here has been ignored.

The code of conduct should be simple, but a little more complex than a BSD license.
 
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PrestonGranite

Guest


If calling other participants "asshats" is not considered harassment, I wonder where harassment starts.
But I can find other points from that precious Code of Conduct:
  • Sustained disruption of discussion: I'm pretty sure that calling me an "asshat" is quite disruptive.
  • Continued one-on-one communication after requests to cease: You just violated that.
  • Knowingly making harmful false claims about a person: I am guaranteed to not be an asshat.
Are you the one to expel yourself from the project or do the rules not apply to the team?
It isn't some sort of amazing coincidence that the only person using abusive language in a thread of people maturely and respectfully discussing the FreeBSD Code of Conduct fiasco is from one of the people directly responsible for it.

It is the same in every open source project that is infested with creeping SJWism.
 

ShelLuser

Son of Beastie

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A lot of people come up with reasons why they consider the CoC to be a bad thing, but so far none managed to come up with a real life example which actually showcases a serious problem with it. I also consider it interesting how some critics can do little more but to ridicule it instead of providing solid argumentation why the whole thing would be bad.

Sure, I definitely agree that the SJW movement tends to take some things to ridiculous heights. I also believe that within that same movement, now especially looking towards the position of women, some claim to strive for equality but I can't help get the strong impression that the actually strive is for more than that. And yes, some of all that can definitely be toxic in my opinion. I still recall gamers gate for example.

But...

As always with these things there are 2 sides to a story. When taken into extremes then even a "cure" can become a "cancer" so to speak. And sometimes... Are we sure it's driven by a SJW agenda when an organization merely tries to aim for a little less nastiness?

Even more important: how exactly does this CoC affect you directly? Because I can't help but think that the answer is plain out simple: it doesn't.

Take that online hugging example which some people now make fun off. The only times I actually done that was when chatting with either my gf (or emailing), some people who I really care for on IRC and when someone 'hugged' me in a Minecraft session out of the blue because I managed to save all their stuff and they were really happy.

I've been active on Microsoft fora, Solaris/Sun fora, some games fora (I usually get bored there), modeling language fora, DAW fora (most notably the Ableton and now removed Propellerhead fora), and I've spend a good 10 years on IRC (mostly last century) and seriously... I've never ever used virtual hugging because why would I?

Even so I also like to point out that in the CoC this isn't suddenly forbidden. All it basically mentions is a situation when its inappropriate or after you've been specifically asked to stop. I really fail to see the big problem there?

The problem I see with both SJW and the opposition is that both 'movements' can be extremely toxic when taken to extremes. Heck, in a way I can't help picture the situation of the US in the 50's / 60's where communism was considered to be the great evil. This went up to such ridiculous heights that several people were disfamed (and worse!) only because the government suspected that they might have had communistic ideals.

Isn't this a little bit of the same idiocy? Some suspect that SJW propaganda slipped into the CoC and thus it's bad. But why not leave the bias out of the equation and instead look at what the CoC actually contains and strives to do? In other words: why not focus on its actual contents while leaving any prejudice out?

Most of all I think it's important to closely look at the way the CoC is going to directly affect you. And I can't help but be convinced that it won't have any for the majority of the community. It's a CoC people should be able to follow even if they haven't read it.

Alas, my rant on this and I'm also pulling out of the discussion a bit because I really don't see the point anymore :)
 

drhowarddrfine

Son of Beastie

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MY PERSONAL GUARANTEE

After this thread dies out, everyone here will only accidentally be reminded of the code and will otherwise forget it even exists except by chance seeing a link or off-hand comment about it.
 
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PrestonGranite

Guest


Except that in every known instance so far just being accused has made the person guilty with no recourse and has weakened the project in my opinion. I've used FreeBSD since 1997 and maintained ports and help debug drivers for release and I'm actively moving away. Just my $0.02.
Same.

It really is a shame. FreeBSD was always held up as the model for a well run project making decisions based on well reasoned technical merit. It has now become the joke of the unix world.

I have built and manage a large number of commercial FreeBSD web and mobile servers. I am now actively working on what I will migrate to: OpenBSD or, yeech, Linux.

I personally and my company both donate every year to FreeBSD. Not a single penny ever again.

And I am not alone. My informal group of FreeBSD system admins I share tech with are doing the same.
 

drhowarddrfine

Son of Beastie

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It has now become the joke of the unix world.
As an active member of the "unix world" I have not heard any such thing except this thread here and amateur forums like reddit. As the only one here at my office who can take the time to surf and find such things, no one at my office of FreeBSD developers was aware of it. Nor do they care.

I have built and manage a large number of commercial FreeBSD web and mobile servers. I am now actively working on what I will migrate to: OpenBSD or, yeech, Linux.
As your first post on this forum, I find this horrible business decision highly unlikely as no true businessman with any acumen at all would base such a thing on social media postings and not technical merit.
 

scottro

Daemon

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Just so people remember what started this thread, it's a picture on twitter by someone who thinks OpenBSD is cool and FreeBSD isn't.
Maybe I'm old and dead inside, but it seems as if an OpenBSD fan said, FreeBSD users are doody heads, and instead of treating it as the somewhat childish insult it was, it's been given credence by being taken seriously.

And yeah, while I think in many cases, an accusation of racism or sexism can be overdone, the sad thing is that in the US at least, far too often it turns out to be true. When I was growing up, there were states where a black and white couple could be arrested for being together. But, I also think that's fairly irrelevant to the first post, about a silly little picture.
 

sidetone

Daemon

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A lot of people come up with reasons why they consider the CoC to be a bad thing, but so far none managed to come up with a real life example which actually showcases a serious problem with it. I also consider it interesting how some critics can do little more but to ridicule it instead of providing solid argumentation why the whole thing would be bad.

Sure, I definitely agree that the SJW movement tends to take some things to ridiculous heights. I also believe that within that same movement, now especially looking towards the position of women, some claim to strive for equality but I can't help get the strong impression that the actually strive is for more than that. And yes, some of all that can definitely be toxic in my opinion. I still recall gamers gate for example.

But...

As always with these things there are 2 sides to a story. When taken into extremes then even a "cure" can become a "cancer" so to speak. And sometimes... Are we sure it's driven by a SJW agenda when an organization merely tries to aim for a little less nastiness?

Even more important: how exactly does this CoC affect you directly? Because I can't help but think that the answer is plain out simple: it doesn't.
...
The problem I see with both SJW and the opposition is that both 'movements' can be extremely toxic when taken to extremes. Heck, in a way I can't help picture the situation of the US in the 50's / 60's where communism was considered to be the great evil. This went up to such ridiculous heights that several people were disfamed (and worse!) only because the government suspected that they might have had communistic ideals.

Isn't this a little bit of the same idiocy? Some suspect that SJW propaganda slipped into the CoC and thus it's bad. But why not leave the bias out of the equation and instead look at what the CoC actually contains and strives to do? In other words: why not focus on its actual contents while leaving any prejudice out?

Most of all I think it's important to closely look at the way the CoC is going to directly affect you. And I can't help but be convinced that it won't have any for the majority of the community. It's a CoC people should be able to follow even if they haven't read it.

Alas, my rant on this and I'm also pulling out of the discussion a bit because I really don't see the point anymore :)
The CoC as written is causing the mess in this thread. Also, the CoC should match this community, and not be imported from a toxic one that I gave vague examples from. I don't have direct examples, but all I have is vague examples of why that CoC exists. It's logic: the CoC should be tailored to FreeBSD.
 

v4sudf2w

New Member

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Physical contact and simulated physical contact (e.g.,textual descriptions like "*hug*" or"*backrub*") without consent or after a request to stop
Was consent given for these "Big virtual hugs and spoons"? Does this not violate the code? A code that makes everyone feel welcome is one thing, but if the creator of the code is a recipient of a violation the day after it is released, that says something. It says creating this in private without any community feedback has resulted in something that is sub-optimal. I trust good intentions were involved, but this top-down edict is not sitting well with many of us.
 
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