MATE MATE performs remarkably poorly in benchmarks

hat's new info then, I thought all kernel experts have known all along that hybrid kernels are always slower than monolithic.
Furthermore, I also thought that there is evidence that this is still the case: https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/tj12vw/hugo_runs_twice_as_fast_in_asahi_linux_than_macos/

A factor of 2 isn't going to be down to kernel differences.

Getting back to the original point. Can you actually cite a situation where the relative slowness of mate matters.
 
I
Here's a benchmark I did today that compares desktop and WM graphics performance in Motionmark 1.2:

Mate desktop: https://i.ibb.co/ggZDN02/Screenshot-at-2023-02-19-14-37-09.png
PeKWM window manager: https://i.ibb.co/pjLPHj8/2023-02-19-142216-1920x1080-scrot.png
dwm window manager: https://i.ibb.co/X3Sh1by/2023-02-19-142959-1920x1080-scrot.png

In Xonotic I see 8% performance difference between MATE and dwm. spectrwm and PeKWM were as fast as dwm in Xonotic. i3-wm and awesomeWM were in between dwm and MATE in terms of performance in Xonotic. And now I just ran glmark2 and I have achieved an even more striking result.

MATE desktop: https://i.ibb.co/LC50Wyj/Screenshot-at-2023-02-19-21-40-52.png
PeKWM window manager: https://i.ibb.co/Cb1h1gh/2023-02-19-212447-1920x1080-scrot.png
dwm window manager: https://i.ibb.co/cXXPJYF/2023-02-19-224605-1920x1080-scrot.png

On Nvidia you have no choice but to use a compositor, and as you can understand from the above text, dwm consistently scores highest everywhere and all the time. spectrwm is the closest to dwm in my experience, but almost always super narrowly slower. MATE scores very badly in MotionMark 1.2 and in glmark2 MATE is simply a total fiasco.

Those observations make me think about GhostBSD. MATE is not a bad desktop in terms of how the interface is structured. I used to be a big fan of Gnome 2 in Ubuntu 10.10 But the performance of MATE I see makes it unsuitable to offer as a default desktop in my opinion, it also doesn't give people a good idea regarding FreeBSD graphics performance when they start benchmarking the graphics in GhostBSD.
I can also notice gaming performance change when i used to switch DEs/WMs. GNOME 3/KDE are worst of all of course, plain WMs are fine. I think that there is something with composition than interferes with games, try disabling composition in MATE and then try again.
 
Getting back to the original point. Can you actually cite a situation where the relative slowness of mate matters.
OpenArena is something old and well optimized. The 20% performance difference makes little difference (on most hardware). Say, for example, that I would like to play Tomb Raider 2013. I've already noticed that this game doesn't get as high performance on my hardware on FreeBSD, and I think it uses OpenGL on Wine. It's not that efficient because OpenGL is simply less efficient than Vulkan. Suppose you would achieve 25 fps on average, that is not very playable because you then have dips to, for example, 14 fps and you notice that very strongly. Suppose it would reach 30 fps, that would be considered 'playable'. So it can make the difference between being able to play a game smoothly or not.

More generally you can say that gamers can often immediately perceive a performance difference above 10% in fps at frame rates between 20 and 60 fps. Especially competitive gamers usually notice this difference immediately.

Outside of gaming, there are several apps where you can feel a 20% difference in graphics performance, such as in certain video editing apps and image editing as well.
Certain CAD apps run more smoothly if you can get more fps in the app.

It is said that there is a trend that mainstream apps, such as Microsoft Office for example, have become graphically intensive, so that your productivity depends on the fps you get in the app:

Try disabling composition in MATE and then try again.
If you disable the compositor on an Nvidia card you will have tearing. So that is not an option. Wayland also doesn't work well on Nvidia at the moment.
With Nvidia you also have the option 'Force Full Composition Pipeline' in the driver. On the GTX 650 this leads to 30% GPU usage when you're not doing anything on your PC, as opposed to 0% GPU usage. Hopefully you understand why I use Compton. Picom does not work in combination with my old GPU, I think it is meant for newer GPUs, and they also say that Picom contains many bugs.

I think MATE's compositor is enabled, but it gives strong tearing in my case. My impression is that MATE simply doesn't work properly on my specific Nvidia driver version, and possibly identically horrific on all Nvidia cards.
 
Picom does not work in combination with my old GPU, I think it is meant for newer GPUs, and they also say that Picom contains many bugs.
Ever tried picom --legacy-backends? It works well for me, while the newer backends are problematic on my 10 years old Intel hardware.
 
Ever tried picom --legacy-backends? It works well for me, while the newer backends are problematic on my 10 years old Intel hardware.
No I haven't tried that. Compton works well the way I set it up but I might give Picom a try with that setting. Is there an advantage to Picom (compared with Compton)?

I tested World of Padman, the 'TIMEDEMO 1' benchmark BIGBALLOON-DEMO.DM_68. The resolution I chose for all tests: 1920x1080 in fullscreen mode. The graphical settings of the game were the highest settings. I've repeated the tests per WM/desktop twice this time so we can see the variations per specific WM/desktop. Below you can see the results.

MATE desktop: 6.5 seconds 399.7 fps 1.0/2.5/17.0/0.8ms
MATE desktop #2: 6.6 seconds 390.9 fps 1.0/2.6/17.0/0.8ms
PeKWM window manager: 5.1 seconds 503.7 fps 0.0/2.0/17.0/0.8ms
PeKWM window manager #2: 5.2 seconds 498.3 fps 1.0/2.0/16.0/0.8ms
dwm window manager: 5.2 seconds 494.2 fps 1.0/2.0/19.0/0.8ms
dwm window manager #2: 5.0 seconds 511.7 fps 1.0/2.0/16.0/0.8ms

In this particular benchmark, dwm is on average over 25% faster than MATE.

I might also test UNIGINE soon, and maybe Diablo II as well.
I'm pretty close to being able to run Diablo II on FreeBSD, it throws an error that I think I'll be able to fix in the future.
 
No I haven't tried that. Compton works well the way I set it up but I might give Picom a try with that setting. Is there an advantage to Picom (compared with Compton)?

I tested World of Padman, the 'TIMEDEMO 1' benchmark BIGBALLOON-DEMO.DM_68. The resolution I chose for all tests: 1920x1080 in fullscreen mode. The graphical settings of the game were the highest settings. I've repeated the tests per WM/desktop twice this time so we can see the variations per specific WM/desktop. Below you can see the results.

MATE desktop: 6.5 seconds 399.7 fps 1.0/2.5/17.0/0.8ms
MATE desktop #2: 6.6 seconds 390.9 fps 1.0/2.6/17.0/0.8ms
PeKWM window manager: 5.1 seconds 503.7 fps 0.0/2.0/17.0/0.8ms
PeKWM window manager #2: 5.2 seconds 498.3 fps 1.0/2.0/16.0/0.8ms
dwm window manager: 5.2 seconds 494.2 fps 1.0/2.0/19.0/0.8ms
dwm window manager #2: 5.0 seconds 511.7 fps 1.0/2.0/16.0/0.8ms

In this particular benchmark, dwm is on average over 25% faster than MATE.
Your test results are just proofing my argument, which is that these differences don't matter. Why is easy to get: most modern panels use 60 Hz as frame rate, only gamers go and pay for more. So when your panel display a new image every 1/60s, it doesn't matter if a window manager delivers 200 or 300 FPS, because most of these images will never make it to the screen anyway.
 
Your test results are just proofing my argument, which is that these differences don't matter. Why is easy to get: most modern panels use 60 Hz as frame rate, only gamers go and pay for more. So when your panel display a new image every 1/60s, it doesn't matter if a window manager delivers 200 or 300 FPS, because most of these images will never make it to the screen anyway.
Do you think I'm benchmarking Xonotic, OpenArena, and World of Padman because I play this every day?
I benchmarked these games because they are easy to install on FreeBSD so I don't have to put any effort into benchmarking them. I don't really play these games.
While OpenArena is something I may play a few more times in the future, it's not going to be my favorite game.

Here's a video I uploaded of the games I actually play:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TiDvPSWEhA


As you can see, the graphics are not always smooth, and back then I used the gtx 1050 which was much more powerful than my current gtx 650.
Here's a video where you can see if my GPU could still easily reach 60 fps, 2 years ago:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTu5VY_onL0

It's time you wake up hardworkingnewbie.
I'm definitely never going to use MATE in FreeBSD again, based on the results I've seen.
 
It's time you wake up hardworkingnewbie.
I'm definitely never going to use MATE in FreeBSD again, based on the results I've seen.
Well regarding usage of MATE or not that's entirely on your own.
Aside that - time to wake up for what? Your whole benchmarks mean nothing to me. It's nice to test this stuff, but it for sure does not affect my day to day work.
 
Well regarding usage of MATE or not that's entirely on your own.
Aside that - time to wake up for what? Your whole benchmarks mean nothing to me. It's nice to test this stuff, but it for sure does not affect my day to day work.
I never said it should matter to you. And there are more important things in life anyway. But you shouldn't make general statements that only concern your situation, that's pretty silly. Here's an example of the kind of statements you've made: Your test results are just proofing my argument, which is that these differences don't matter.

But the GTX 4090 is a real thing and many people spend over $1700 on it. The RTX 4090 continues to sell well and leaker Moore's Law is Dead claimed that users were ignoring the RTX 4080 in favor of the RTX 4090. So there are many people who care about the fps coming out of a GPU.

What is mentioned in the news today on many hardware websites: Ryzen 9 7950X3D is 5.6% faster in gaming than Core i9-13900K. And the difference I found was not less than 8% in any test I did. So it does matter, not for you, but for many other people.
 
I use a gaming PC as daily driver. Most of the time the GPU is asleep (read its overdimensioned for my USE)
Some Nvidia cards used to be good for mining certain coins. You always saw that many miners did everything to get a few % extra performance from the CPU or GPU.

Most bitcoins are currently lower in value than the peak they reached in 2021, but often they are still higher than the values in 2020. What I do find interesting is that major mining companies never thought of testing FreeBSD and making it compatible for mining. They didn't get the idea to test the Linux compatibility layer for their mining apps. Not all bitcoins can be mined faster on FreeBSD, but I think some coins can be mined faster on FreeBSD. For example, one of the things I've observed is that FreeBSD scores higher on SilverBench than Clear Linux. And back in the day, FreeBSD also had slightly higher GPU performance than Linux: https://www.phoronix.com/review/linux_games_bsd/3

What you actually see is that the entire market of miners, who spend many hours on this every day, often do not have the skills to work with the most optimal systems for the task they are performing. Whatever the case, the above gaming benchmark comparing FreeBSD to Linux is very old. In all those years, hardly anyone has actually bothered to see if Linux or FreeBSD gets higher fps in games on the most popular Intel/AMD/Nvidia drivers.
 
One of these things that strike me is the score in OpenArena of the GTX 650 Ti BOOST: https://openbenchmarking.org/test/pts/openarena
It doesn't hit 200fps here, but my GTX 650 gets over 200fps at 1080p and on the highest settings.

Explanation? Have the nvidia drivers gotten faster, or is Linux slower than FreeBSD here?
Let's think deeply and ask ourselves, how much faster is this 650 Ti Boost compared to my 650. Maybe we should look for a bench, right?
Here we have a reliable benchmark:

In both synthetic benchmarks and games, the Ti boost is almost twice as fast as the standard 650.
So what I want to tell you guys is that there are a lot of strange things when you dig a little deeper.

Another example of the many strange things I observe in benchmarks: https://openbenchmarking.org/test/pts/padman
GTX 1060 is often about three times faster than the GTX 650 in games so what's the explanation?
An artificial system that revolves around nothing mature? Isn't that what this industry is?
 
I have tried to benchmark 'Unigine Tropics', with all settings on the lowest setting.
No matter what I do, it limits the fps to 60 fps. Even if I disable compositing and vsync in the Unigine benchmark program and in Nvidia Settings.
I completely shut down Compton and I can't go above 60 fps in Unigine Tropics in any window manager or desktop environment with compositing disabled everywhere.

According to OpenBenchmarking.org I should be able to go above 60 fps in this benchmark:

Maybe you should test it yourself, but this means you can't do Unigine benchmarks on Nvidia cards that go above 60 fps (on FreeBSD).
Or maybe I missed something, but I can't think of anything.

Apparently a windows user had the same problem:

No one knew how to fix it, maybe there are bugs in the most popular benchmarking program for GPUs.
 
It seems this bug has been unsolved for 11 years:

Vsync is off in NVCP, frame limiter in Afterburner is set to 120. Vsync set to off in Heaven.
Why is my card not going over 60FPS?
I've seen 7850's and 6950's scored over 60 max FPS, what's going on? I have a feeling it's reducing my score


My gut feeling says that this will happen with a lot of Nvidia cards.
If 99.999% of the gamers don't test the performance, bugs in this benchmark program don't come to light, and stay in app for more than 11 years.
 
Currently running fvm3. With picom.
With Compton, my GPU usage stays at +- 0% when I use the desktop but do nothing. So it seems that Compton is not causing any real increase in GPU usage.

Compton also has very little CPU usage, close to 0% CPU usage. In MotionMark 1.2 I see that dwm and spectrwm without a compositor scores between 4% to 7% higher than with Compton enabled. To be clear, this is with backend="glx" as the configuration. I don't think you can start using compositing with less than +-5% average performance loss, so there is no reason for me to use Picom in terms of performance?

You have said the following:
The picom.conf "xrender" parameter can have make huge diffirence. I use "xrender" i.e. use the CPU.

But Compton's documentation says the following:
GLX backend is typically much faster but depends on a sane driver.
 
Because GLX will rely on GPU and will let CPU alone to do other tasks.
That's nice to know.

If I play a game that is GPU intensive and requires very little CPU, I should choose xrender.

If the game is CPU intensive and not very GPU intensive, then I prefer GLX.

That should give the best performance, right?
 
That's nice to know.

If I play a game that is GPU intensive and requires very little CPU, I should choose xrender.

If the game is CPU intensive and not very GPU intensive, then I prefer GLX.

That should give the best performance, right?
Yes but keep in mind some games can also use CPU intensively in some situations. I usually disable all kinds of compositions when I run a game like: disable composition (it depends on the DE/WM), run the game, enable the composition back at exit.
 
In UNIGINE Tropics I have not been able to find a real difference in performance between dwm, spectrwm and MATE. MATE was usually 1fps slower than the window managers. UNIGINE Tropics also had a bug that it wouldn't go above 60fps in certain situations.

I tested the popular CS:GO benchmark as well. The resolution I chose for all tests: 1920x1080 in fullscreen mode. The graphical settings of the game were usually the lowest settings. I've repeated the tests per WM/desktop twice. Below you can see the results.

MATE desktop: 81.35 average fps
MATE desktop #2: 82.51 average fps
dwm window manager: 89.73 average fps
dwm window manager #2: 89.62 average fps

In CS:GO particular benchmark, dwm is on average over 9% faster than MATE. CS:GO is still the most popular game in the world and recently broke another record with 1,323,706 concurrent players online at the same time.

Out of my 7 tests there was only one test where I didn't see a significant difference in performance between dwm and MATE, and that was a UNIGINE synthetic benchmark whose relevance is questionable. I can say that dwm + Compton is between 8% - 30% faster than MATE + compositor in most games on FreeBSD. I don't think this is a small difference.
 
MATE on FreeBSD overheats my laptop when watching YouTube videos for some reason, in both Chromium and Firefox (Firefox is slightly worse though). The case becomes unbearably hot to touch. Changing to XFCE was noticeably better but it still ran fairly hot.

Laptop specs:-

Intel i7 2.4Ghz Quad Core Sandy Bridge
24GB DDR3 1600MHz RAM
240GB SATA SSD
AMD FirePro M4000

Linux with Mate still heats up and bogs but is a tiny bit better. This hardware now runs Monterey and I can watch YouTube videos on Chrome without it barely kicking out any heat. FreeBSD runs on my desktops now, with XFCE.

Totally anecdotal, but sometimes numbers don't tell you the whole story.
 
MATE on FreeBSD overheats my laptop when watching YouTube videos for some reason, in both Chromium and Firefox (Firefox is slightly worse though). The case becomes unbearably hot to touch. Changing to XFCE was noticeably better but it still ran fairly hot.

Laptop specs:-

Intel i7 2.4Ghz Quad Core Sandy Bridge
24GB DDR3 1600MHz RAM
240GB SATA SSD
AMD FirePro M4000

Linux with Mate still heats up and bogs but is a tiny bit better. This hardware now runs Monterey and I can watch YouTube videos on Chrome without it barely kicking out any heat. FreeBSD runs on my desktops now, with XFCE.

Totally anecdotal, but sometimes numbers don't tell you the whole story.
If you study my benchmarks carefully you will see that there are tests where MATE gives only 50% of normal performance. MATE has serious optimization problems in some situations.
In the case of what the best lightweight desktop is, I'd say it's going to be XFCE or LXQt.

I recently tested the LXQt desktop on ROSA Fresh and found that LXQt has become very competitive with XFCE in terms of performance and RAM usage.
I think they are both very good at the moment.
 
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