FreeBSD development seems lost

[Useradd]

mainboard+CPU+RAM

An NVMe M.2 makes a big difference too, compared to an ordinary SSD.

 

[Beastie7]

I can understand that stupid critics are demoralizing, but not all critics can be despised.

Because obnoxious tantrums from the likes of you and that Retro person have no validity, nor are they of any real concern with regards to the quality or engineering of the base system. When volunteers spend their time and energy putting work into an open source project; then the likes of you come and bash their work/efforts; it makes them feel significantly reluctant to bother.

Making asinine predictions about what will or will not be included in pkgbase vital policies, or FreeBSD "becoming Linux" (wtf does that even mean?) doesn't contribute to any standing issues.

They think every user has a powerful computer with a lot of RAM and fast like theirs, they think all users are also kernel developers, etc, or the opposite, every user is stupid and needs windows like systems.

That's objectively false.

Also. As new hardware is released (especially with better/enhanced architecture or firmware - and.. often cheaper); there's less incentive to support existing old hardware. That's technology for you. There's no point is bloating the system with endless compatibility cruft. Upgrade your s**t - because at some point you'll have to. A RPi5 is probably faster than what you have currently.

I think developers tend to be unempathic with users, everywhere. They think every user has a powerful computer with a lot of RAM and fast like theirs, they think all users are also kernel developers, etc, or the opposite, every user is stupid and needs windows like systems.

This is a free, open source project; driven by volunteers. You're entitled to nothing. You don't like it? Learn to code and fix the damn thing yourself.

Or happily pay someone to fix it for you.

 

[covacat]

An NVMe M.2 makes a big difference too, compared to an ordinary SSD.

no, it does not

 

[astyle]

no, it does not

It does, you'll be surprised. Esp. on compilations of stuff from ground up. They do tend to perform better under specific tasks, and compiling ports under FreeBSD (as well as moving the tarballs) gives you a good idea of how SSD features make a difference in how fast something gets done.

 

[MrBSD]

no, it does not

This is just silly statement.

 

[bsdimp]

Someone else said they removed Perl from the base recently, I must admit I was a bit surprised... I guess sed and awk are still there!

Perl was removed 20 years ago or so.

 

[kpedersen]

Someone else said they removed Perl from the base recently, I must admit I was a bit surprised... I guess sed and awk are still there!

Following on from bsdimp , it is OpenBSD which has Perl in base (mainly for their packages system unlike i.e Debian which uses it for everything).

sed and awk are very different to Perl in that they are part of POSIX/SUS. They are also less reliant on dependency cruft from CPAN to do trivial things making them feasible to maintain.

 

[astyle]

Perhaps there's a cultural thing here too. In the western tradition, certainly in the uk, we have a healthy culture of "combative robust discussion" . We slag each other off, raise all kinds of objections and outlandish points, call each other idiots, argue the hell out of things; it's a very effective strategy for arriving at a good solution. We do it in good humour, and don't take it personally. I guess it goes along with western individualism. Whereas some other cultures are different. I remember working with a team of engineers from somewhere in asia, I'd better not say which country; if you gave a talk and then asked them "is there anything you don't understand" no-one would dare to say so, instead they would struggle on regardless to avoid having to admit they didn't understand something; which meant that things didn't get resolved, or took a very long time.

Didn't realize this kind of thing exists offline, as well... Although I would imagine those debates tended to end in a fair share of bar brawls.

On the topic of audience being unwilling to admit that something is not making sense: It does leave me rather peeved when I see the lengths that people would go to just to avoid admitting that they did not understand a technical point, esp. an important one that frankly changes the whole ballgame. With engineering types, technical points are actually easier, at least for me - do the math, resolve the point, and move on, maybe even share a chuckle when a stubborn technical puzzle gets resolved. I once sketched out a diagram for an engineer I was working with a few years back on my last $JOB - that resolved a sticky point where he did not understand my work, and he said that "Sometimes you do have to beat me over the head with a 2x4 before I understand!". That was said in good humor, of course. At least in this case, we both were willing to admit that there was something that we were not on the same page about, instead of wasting time deluding ourselves with the idea that opposite is true. My point being, putting in some effort to get on the same page with the other person is usually worthwhile.

 

[atax1a]

relatedly, one thing we learned when we transitioned genders is that a lot of people who were born men and stayed that way are deeply emotionally invested in those conversations as a way of "winning" a technical dominance game that they assume everyone else is playing against them.

 

[mer]

Didn't realize this kind of thing exists offline, as well... Although I would imagine those debates tended to end in a fair share of bar brawls.

On the topic of audience being unwilling to admit that something is not making sense: It does leave me rather peeved when I see the lengths that people would go to just to avoid admitting that they did not understand a technical point, esp. an important one that frankly changes the whole ballgame. With engineering types, technical points are actually easier, at least for me - do the math, resolve the point, and move on, maybe even share a chuckle when a stubborn technical puzzle gets resolved. I once sketched out a diagram for an engineer I was working with a few years back on my last $JOB - that resolved a sticky point where he did not understand my work, and he said that "Sometimes you do have to beat me over the head with a 2x4 before I understand!". That was said in good humor, of course. At least in this case, we both were willing to admit that there was something that we were not on the same page about, instead of wasting time deluding ourselves with the idea that opposite is true. My point being, putting in some effort to get on the same page with the other person is usually worthwhile.

All my best interviews (on either side of the table) wind up with "If I don't know something, I know how to look it up. Usually Stack Overflow".
Engineers: some of the best "discussions" I've been in over the years sound like a death match outside the conference room. Keep it technical, draw pictures on the white board, eventually some says "Oh eff you" and the problem is resolved.
Engineers usually get invested in their solution which leads to hard stuff.

 

[astyle]

Engineers usually get invested in their solution which leads to hard stuff.

Yeah, like Stallman is so invested in his definition of the term 'Open Source' that he even releases 'de-blobbed' Linux kernel that has very limited hardware support?

 

[bakul]

Even though this thread is in the Off-Topic forum, can we try to remain at least *somewhat* on topic of the original intent of this thread?

If there are specific issues you have with the development process, please list them, explain why you think so and if possible suggest a better alternative. Then the more knowledgeable among can dispel misunderstandings and ignorance and/or explain their PoV and we can all have a fruitful discussion.

Thank you for your attention to this matter!

 

[hruodr]

If there are specific issues you have with the development process

After every update, even minor, I end troubleshooting, or in other way with a broken system.

For every 'desktop user' is an web browser unavoidable, and unfortunately chrome is unavoidable:
there are web-sites that can only be read with chrome correctly, unfortunately the one of my bank.

Since 14.2 is not anymore supported, I updated to 14.3, and ended without chrome.

They should have a list of 'essential software' and not discontinue a release until in the new this software is supported.
They should give a list of packages that do not work anymore.

 

[T-Aoki]

After every update, even minor, I end troubleshooting, or in other way with a broken system.

For every 'desktop user' is an web browser unavoidable, and unfortunately chrome is unavoidable:
there are web-sites that can only be read with chrome correctly, unfortunately the one of my bank.

Since 14.2 is not anymore supported, I updated to 14.3, and ended without chrome.

They should have a list of 'essential software' and not discontinue a release until in the new this software is supported.
They should give a list of packages that do not work anymore.

It would be "just not yet finished building".
www/chromium worked for me on stable/14, at some point same as 14.3 (when it was branched from stable/14). And working on stable/15, too, after I've switched to stable/15.

Note that I'm building www/chromium locally.

 

[dclau]

Adding to the noise: https://openeuphoria.org/docs/e2c.html#_606_euphoriatoctranslator

 

[Espionage724]

there are web-sites that can only be read with chrome correctly, unfortunately the one of my bank.

I have about 10+ years of that not being the case (Firefox-exclusively)

I used a few different bank websites no problem.

 

[hruodr]

It would be "just not yet finished building".

Then 14.3 should be not ready for release and 14.2 should still be maintained.
A warning could have been nice, I prefer unmaintained, but working 14.2 than not ready or broken 14.3

I am use packages because I have 'only' 4GB RAM and two kern 1600 Mhz processor,
not adequate for building lightweight chrome.

I use quarterly packages, should I move to latest or they will finish building it?

I have about 10+ years of that not being the case (Firefox-exclusively)

You are lucky! I also normally use firefox, but we are a tiny minority.
Chroming is becoming 'the browser' and web developers develops for 'the browser'.

 

[fjdlr]

I've always used Firefox since (FreeBSD 10.n) to access (two) banks without ever encountering any problems.
I also use NoScript, i don't care about cookies, Ublock, etc., which I disable to access banks.
Zero trust in Chrome

 

[T-Aoki]

Then 14.3 should be not ready for release and 14.2 should still be maintained.

pkgs were built using 14.2 until the end of September, and switched to 14.3 from October, as 14.2 is EoL'ed. And at the (almost) same time, quarterly branch switched to 2025Q4.

And note that, if you still have pkg for 14.2, most of things except kernel module ports (this does NOT include www/chromium) can be used on 14.3, too.

www/chromium is quite huge and takes quite a long time to build. So you SHALL be patient here! Don't forget that FreeBSD is a volunteer project, NOT AT ALL COMMERCIAL AND PAID PROJECT.

And all blames SHALL be go to Google Chromium project, which does NOT accept patches to allow building / running on FreeBSD, making porting efforts tooooooooooooooooooooooooo hard. Understand?

 

[T-Aoki]

And note that www/chromium forces me 12+ hours to finish build.

 

[CShell]

I have about 10+ years of that not being the case (Firefox-exclusively)

Yes I have always used Netscape/Firefox and I have absolute zero trust in Google Chrome and I don't use it.
Every site I use on the net works fine with Netscape/Firefox.

I am at best skeptical that anyone would be required to use Google Chrome to access their bank. If that's true, then switch banks.

 

[hruodr]

And note that www/chromium forces me 12+ hours to finish build.

With my computer perhaps many lifetimes. I did 'make install' and appeared that I need at least 8GB RAM.
And I do not want to mix packages and ports only for installing chromium.

I deleted that 14.2 version because a dependency disturbs the building of emacs.

Is there a way to install the last 14.2 package?

Thanks anyway.

 

[scottro]

I have a Beelink SER5 with 32 G of RAM and 16 (threaded CPU). (Of the 32G, I think 4 is used for the GPU by default and I've left it at default). Anyway, ungoogled chromium took me around 12 hours plus or minus to build. The Beelink isn't the most powerful machine in the world, but it's decent. I usually use packages, at the time, I think ungoogled chromium was only available (using latest) as a port.

 

[astyle]

I have about 10+ years of that not being the case (Firefox-exclusively)

I used a few different bank websites no problem.

You're just lucky here... I still see plenty of times when a website works in one web browser, but not another, even in a Windows environment. I still have to tell people to 'just try a different browser, see if that works', and to ditch MS IE...

 

[T-Aoki]

Is there a way to install the last 14.2 package?

With exceptions of kernel module (kmod) ports that unlikely work on unmatched kernel, pkg are built and managed as one per arch (amd64, i386, aarch64,...) and major versions (13, 14,15 and 16 for main branch) like FreeBSD:14:amd64.

And until September, pkgs installed via official pkg repo (FreeBSD repo 14.x and before) for 14.3 was built on 14.2. So if the dependencies you've upgraded are accepted as dependencies for chromium pkg you have, it would be installed sanely. Not 100% sure, though.