I think, at this stage, I am finally convinced that FreeBSD is not ready for all desktop users.

Oh? So you can get a Quick Assist binary for other platforms? Now that doesn't sound like the Microsoft we know and love.

No, Microsoft Teams screen sharing remote control is far less useful than Microsoft Quick Assist.

If you say so. I am sure it is so incredibly critical to everyones work that absolutely *no* compromise can be made. Even to enable access to more productive platforms ;)
 
Please try to not twist my words.

By integral to Windows 10, you really just mean that Microsoft doesn't provide a binary for any other platform but Windows 10 right?

Wrong. That's what you say, but it's not what I mean.

I meant exactly what I wrote at <https://forums.FreeBSD.org/threads/78639/post-521584>, no more no less: Quick Assist is integral to Windows 10.

<https://forums.FreeBSD.org/threads/78639/post-521210> Windows 10 is a requirement for my role.

My role is not limited to Microsoft Quick Assist, or Microsoft Teams. I provide IT support. I'm surrounded by hundreds of computers running Windows 10.

… If you say so. …

I say that Teams screen sharing remote control is far less useful than Quick Assist because (amongst other things):
  • with Teams, it's too easy to lose control through inadvertent clicks on a remote part of the screen that's invisible to the controller.
An invisible part of the user interface is not good UX when a person is attempting to remotely control the underlying part that's visible to, but not controllable by, the controller.

Remote control that loses control is not good remote control.
 
Windows 10 is a requirement for my role.

My role is not limited to Microsoft Quick Assist, or Microsoft Teams. I provide IT support. I'm surrounded by hundreds of computers running Windows 10.
At risk of twisting your words, I suppose it is because I flat out disagree with your statement (in fact I think it is a little bizarre). I know guys happily running a mac or Linux laptop that deal with thousands of Windows clients. Actually I think consumer Windows is completely inadequate for this role.

Remote control that loses control is not good remote control.
But its good enough for the mac guys? So much so that it hasn't warranted you looking for alternatives such as Apple Remote Desktop ("Integral" to macOS)?

Btw, I am not trying to be argumentative here (though I possibly seem to be coming across this way!). I am trying to find a solution because at the moment you seem to be using Microsoft -only software for the sake of Microsoft. And from experience it is always annoying when internal company tech support do that. It is so old fashioned. This is not the 90s anymore and things won't change if people keep doing this. If you can at work, try to push back a little.
 
He's got a point. I believe their more recent Server Admin, and Azure stuff is all web based too. I mean, you're still paying Microsoft, but the experience is more "open".
 
… you seem to be using Microsoft -only software for the sake of Microsoft. …

Maybe your anti-Microsoft sentiment is clouding my words.

I want to boot FreeBSD. FreeBSD is not Microsoft-only software.

FreeBSD can not boot the computer that I'll be given, so I'll:
  • boot Windows 10, which is designed to work with the hardware
  • make best use of Windows 10
  • boot FreeBSD in VirtualBox
  • free myself from some of the problems that are associated with FreeBSD.

But its good enough for the mac guys?

No.

Remote control that loses control is not good remote control.

So much so that it hasn't warranted you looking for alternatives such as Apple Remote Desktop ("Integral" to macOS)?

I'm familiar with Apple Remote Desktop. If you had looked at my profile, you'd have seen that I'm ex-AppleSeed. More:

… years before public betas became a thing, I was AppleSeed member 405 (that's the 405 in my avatar here); and part of a much smaller group (membership unknown) that tested builds of Feedback Assistant before the Assistant was made available to other members of AppleSeed.

I began supporting Macs in 1993 – long before I began supporting Windows. I administered XServe, XServe RAID, and so on.

… Mac OS X Server 10.0 (with Mac OS X largely the reason for my presence here, although I never introduced myself) and before that, AppleShare IP 5.0.
 
I've seen threads go off topic before but I think we are at the equivalent of driving from New York City to Los Angeles via Bangkok.
Heh, perhaps. Though in some ways it is quite handy to discuss what is blocking people moving entirely to FreeBSD. Things like remote assistance are quite related to desktop use after all.

  • boot Windows 10, which is designed to work with the hardware
That is marketing speech. That hardware is probably a computer. FreeBSD is also designed for computers. If everyone followed this, no-one would be running FreeBSD natively on their laptops would they?

I suppose I am still not entirely convinced why you enforce Windows 10's Quick Assist (because web Teams is inadequate) and yet don't enforce Apple Remote Desktop (because web Teams is inadequate). However so long as you have carried out your professional due diligence (rather than just going with Microsoft due to tradition), then I am certainly in no position to complain (though I absolutely would if one of our tech support guys was needlessly pushing Windows on my team. It does happen occasionally).
 
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… driving from New York City to Los Angeles via Bangkok.

:) let's not forget that we're in the off-topic forum …

… Things like remote assistance are quite related to desktop use …

 
Heh, perhaps. Though in some ways it is quite handy to discuss what is blocking people moving entirely to FreeBSD. Things like remote assistance are quite related to desktop use after all.


That is marketing speech. That hardware is probably a computer. FreeBSD is also designed for computers. If everyone followed this, no-one would be running FreeBSD natively on their laptops would they?

I suppose I am still not entirely convinced why you enforce Windows 10's Quick Assist (because web Teams is inadequate) and yet don't enforce Apple Remote Desktop (because web Teams is inadequate). However so long as you have carried out your professional due diligence (rather than just going with Microsoft due to tradition), then I am certainly in no position to complain (though I absolutely would if one of our tech support guys was needlessly pushing Windows on my team. It does happen occasionally).
I don't know about your experience with large networks but in my case I am required to use managed laptop with specific software installed. None available for FreeBSD. To keep running FreeBSD should I look for a new job?
MS products may not be safe (that is why often they are behind UNIX servers) but they provide software that has no match outside MS (e.g. collaboration).
So while I see a lot of FreeBSD/linux servers around, laptop/desktop is out of reach for either.
Few days ago someone was complaining about missing Gnome3, I remember missing libreoffice (for quite some time), this is not acceptable if one wants to use laptop/workstation at work (or at home). Of course 99% of scientific software (in my case) is just not available for FreeBSD unless web based.
As soon as these issues are solved, large companies may consider switching from MS, but I am using BSD/Solaris/linux/Apple/MS for 25yrs on personal computers and this (wide range of specialized high quality personal software offering) is not happening.

Same goes in the case of hardware: to be safe when buying new laptop/desktop, ideally I should consider at best 1yr old hardware (not newer) for compatibility sake. Still I need to do a lot of research before buying the hardware. This is possible for enthusiasts

Even on my personal laptop I need Windows in VM for photoediting (in my case), music astro. You name it.

This is not a marketing speech, this is reality.
 
I don't know about your experience with large networks but in my case I am required to use managed laptop with specific software installed. None available for FreeBSD. To keep running FreeBSD should I look for a new job?
MS products may not be safe (that is why often they are behind UNIX servers) but they provide software that has no match outside MS (e.g. collaboration).
Put together a proper list and prepare to make a few compromises and you might be surprised. Yes, I would suggest that in 2021 I find most Microsoft products have moved to the nonsense cloud. Office365, Teams, Sharepoint I would not install an application for. The great thing is that Microsoft is more and more moving that way anyway for monetisation purposes.

A classic one I hear my colleagues citing is Visual Studio being Windows-only so they can't migrate. Absolutely, if they choose to use a Microsoft specific product, then they are kind of at fault. Not FreeBSD (or Linux). And for everything else there is a virtual machine. Even on a Windows machine, I would suggest refusing to run things like Teams or Skype outside of a VM anyway.

As for hardware, many companies that do enforce Linux quite happily procure the correct stuff. So hardware limitations is really not an excuse. Hardware is cheap, especially for non-consumer business stuff. A good place to start is the RHCL catalog. A 2019 ThinkPad X1 Carbon is a good option. Possibly newer than many companies will go for anyway.
 
I never mentioned web Teams. And so on.
Ah it was because you mentioned that MS Teams was no good. Teams or web Teams are very similar (actually desktop teams is pretty much nothing more than a web browser container that runs web teams with some extra gizmos).

I only referred to web teams specifially because that is what you will want to strive for if you intend to run FreeBSD at work. I use it occasionally (mainly for calls and some remote debugging).
 
I rarely need to use an installed version of Teams, or Teams in Chromium.

I most often use Teams in Firefox, not bothered by the limitations.
 
For me, I actually dislike the web version of the software. The biggest reason is that the web version is always less performant and also a trimmed down version with several functionality removed. So I'm restricted from using FreeBSD on my primary machines, until an alternative software is available. I'm not restricting on specific software works, but an alternative to replace with (with communication software can communicate on that network/platform).
 
Put together a proper list and prepare to make a few compromises and you might be surprised.
This is theory talking. Why would anyone compromise if there is no need for that? Assuming that I get FreeBSD on the laptop, what is it worth without professional software that I need? Boot it up and browse the internet?

It really does not matter what and why would you refuse if an alternative does not work.
I will give you an example, you will find a solution, I will talk to our IT.

Get me professional confocal microscopy software (hardware from Nikon costs ~$20K a piece) that runs on FreeBSD.
 
Linus Torvalds was once asked why Linux does not rule the desktop, beside it being free and the era of desktop Linux being predicted at least for over a decade lingering just around the corner.

His answer was quite simple: because Linux is not shipped preinstalled with most sold computers. The same applies to FreeBSD.
 
I think what this thread shows it that it's really never about the OS, it's about what applications(functionality) you truly need, what applications you want and how to run them.
Plain text email? Almost doesn't matter what the OS is.
Application XYZ that your business demands? Can you get it for your desired OS, with the needed features on that OS?
Can you afford those applications?

Aeterna has a good example. A question would be:
could someone pay enough money to port an existing application to FreeBSD for his needs, and does FreeBSD provide enough to run it?
 
This is theory talking. Why would anyone compromise if there is no need for that?
I would happily compromise and run a web Teams if it meant keeping with FreeBSD. For me it isn't really that theoretical. I have very much put it into practice with my day to day work. I'm surprised more guys aren't doing similar, just because they like to install Microsoft's cloud software rather than run from browser?

Get me professional confocal microscopy software (hardware from Nikon costs ~$20K a piece) that runs on FreeBSD.
You really need this for your work laptop?

For me, I actually dislike the web version of the software.
That may be so. But you would honestly rather be stuck with Windows for everything rather than just suck it up and use a web app for one specific service? That seems like a crazy compromise.
 
I guess I've been lucky in my career. I run FreeBSD at home, have been for a long time, the versions of the applications do what I need, OpenVPN to get back to work machines, VNC to a linux desktop at work, Chromium with webcamd on the BSD boxes works for Google Meet stuff.
I've got an older lenovo thinkpad running Win10 that is only used to check out the upgrade stuff so I can fix wife's machine and minor work things.

darktable works well enough for me in a non professional fashion with a D610. I miss the smell of stop bath and fixer and Rodinal.
 
My perfectly good TracPhone that I purchased and loaded a $20 card on was obsolete because it wasn't 5G.

I wanted holographic images of Michael Jackson doing the moonwalk projected in front of me while I converse telephonically and the $20 bill with some guy on the front who I just don't remember anything about that was purged from history by the Ministry of Truth Movement last summer but didn't get either.

I need a safe space and a puppy. And I might need changed.

No, I'm alright.
 
That may be so. But you would honestly rather be stuck with Windows for everything rather than just suck it up and use a web app for one specific service? That seems like a crazy compromise.
Honestly, I am more of in the waiting field. The reason, is that the software is available on linux which does work; but on FreeBSD it needs a convoluted mess just to get it to work. This is outside of getting the Linux Subsystem and necessary linux libraries installed. Sadly, none of the linux software is open source to work on porting them.

The only package that I've seen that may potentially be an alternative is Pidgin, but it is currently be process of having it completely overhauled to gtk3 and that it looking sometime next year to have something to test... It is already known, any plugins from the current (gtk2) have to be rewritten for the new version; so no use looking at the current plugins available.
 
His answer was quite simple: because Linux is not shipped preinstalled with most sold computers.
So, why do the laptop vendors not pre-install Linux (or FreeBSD or something else)?

There are two reasons: Push and pull. First, pre-installing Windows is relatively easy for them. Microsoft has a gigantic department that supports hardware vendors, handles licensing, works with them to customize and tune, and builds its distribution (install, configure, support) mechanisms around the needs of those OEMs. In the Linux world, such a thing just doesn't exist. RedHat had a little bit of it, but it never went much of anywhere, and now that RedHat is being absorbed into IBM (who no longer sells computers to individuals, neither desktops nor laptops), that need won't be seen. And other Linux packaging companies are even smaller. So let's go one step further: Why does Microsoft do this, and "Linux" does not? Because Microsoft is customer and user focused. Microsoft knows who buys their products, in the case of OS licenses mostly OEMs, and it is willing to help its customers make that an easy and profitable experience. Microsoft knows who its end users are (in the case of Windows, the humans who push buttons and move mouses, not the OEMs), and it tries to create a product focused on the needs and wants of those humans. In contrast, Linux is run by engineering and computer science types, for whom the beauty and elegance of a line of kernel code, or the coding style of a DE, is much more important than whether it is easy to install and support, or whether users actually like using it. So Microsoft pushes windows.

Now on the pull side: Windows has an extremely large market share of the desktop/laptop market, whether you like that or not. That means that for users of computers, choosing Windows is a pretty easy and safe choice: the skills are there, creating a support infrastructure is easy, it is relatively risk free. So users want Windows, and vendors are happy to oblige.

It also means that people who write software (applications) need to first and foremost support Windows (which gets them about 90% of the market), then Macintosh (which gets them to about 99%), and only after that they need to worry about the Unixes. And many software vendors stop after the first or second step. I have so many examples of minor software products that only support Windows. Not because the makers are evil and hate FreeBSD, but because of very simple economics. Often (perhaps even typically), those are commercial products that are not in-and-of themselves profitable, but are needed to support other products, for example hardware configuration tools. Current examples for which one needs to use a Windows machine in our household or with neighbors: The monitoring tools for Omega industrial controllers, the setup tool for UPB remote-controllable light switches, and a software package our neighbor uses for tuning his ECU (engine control unit) on a modified Corvette via the OBD2 port. All these are small software projects, not distributed to millions of customers, and created by "small" companies (much smaller than IBM/Microsoft/Google) that don't specialize in software, but have to do a little software to support their real products. For them, Windows makes perfect sense: it gets you a very large market penetration for just one investment. The RoI on supporting Mac is small by comparison.

Classic example of Network effect. Esther Dyson put it really well: Microsoft won the election for preferred desktop software perfectly fairly. Unfortunately, our system does not allow for a second election.
 
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