I think, at this stage, I am finally convinced that FreeBSD is not ready for all desktop users.

FreeBSD is great, and it has the potential to be unrivaled. In reality, FreeBSD being unrivaled will be at increments at 5 years at a time. FreeBSD isn't perfect, but neither is anything else. The closet to that would be a Mac, and yet that lacks applications that opensource operating systems have to offer. Where Ubuntu has nearly everything, it's bulky and that makes it slower. Maybe Windows and Mac are better for all users than everything else. Right now, everything lacks in some way or other.

It took a long time for multimedia keys to become standardized so it works with more keyboards, and it's another release, before that becomes the default setting. That may be the first step for backlighting on keyboards. It took a over a decade for XMPP to get up to speed in itself, and on FreeBSD: this still has setbacks in getting ports up to speed for needed features. It took a while for graphic cards to get up to speed, and now it's there except for the newest for common manufacturers (AMD, Intel) on common architectures, which the most well known are improved upon consistently now. Many of us have assumed that all relevant graphics cards work, however, when it comes to microboards, FreeBSD lacks basic graphics acceleration for them, namely, VC (Video Core) graphics cards. NetBSD has support for Broadcom VC IV graphic cards for microboards through a driver ported from Linux: Thread share-your-netbsd-experience-for-freebsd-users.89800, (NetBSD Blog: Raspberry Pi GPU acceleration in NetBSD 7).

When it comes to backlighting on keyboards, or any hardware ability, even when it doesn't work in the current FreeBSD state, seeing what it takes and documenting and sharing that with others, is another step to getting that to work. I believe this is closer with the newer USBHID driver architecture.

BSD's need to work more closely together, to implement software technology, which one may have, that replaces Linux versions. The load of software development needs to be shared, which will benefit all BSD's and other opensource operating systems which aren't Linux (on mailing list). Some BSD licensed software needs to be forked on a BSD themed location, for instance x11/sxhkd, because it's BSD like, yet uses GNU dependencies for building. Small applications like this should be exclusively built with BSD native tools. BSD relevant upstreams for smaller programs would require less or no patches, and less non native dependencies.

To get nearly all hardware to run, I believe FreeBSD needs to have an API for GPL hardware driver libraries, only for which FreeBSD lacks those drivers. Or basically use the existing ports system, as already is being done.

As for my FreeBSD system, I'm good with it. It suits me better than any other operating system.
 
it is just a matter of time that FreeBSD will bubble up like GNU/Linux did, until now.
FreeBSD has survived for decades without being "popular" because its old as fuck and too legit to quit, homie. I don't understand why I read this as frequently as I do. Everyone that knows what they're using understands why they're using it. From my perspective lacking this popularity is very much a strength as it offers some obscurity at the very least.

I think some of this is steeped in the if they can (linux) we can too.
FreeBSD is old as fuck.

FreeBSD's motto is "The Power to Serve."
Good motto.

an it be a desktop sure could it be better sure.
What is preventing you or anyone else from setting up Openbox or Awesome or i3 (if you're a real man) and configuring things the way you want them to be configured?

a developer for video graphics drivers on FreeBSD was frustrated that his work for it wasn't acknowledged, and how companies that used his improvements made money but didn't give back to the project which made improvements
:(

The person said, I'll work on a project when I feel like it (as if it were a hobby), and not be so eager which companies make a profit from and won't give back.
If you're expecting people to give derivative work or monetary incentive back for the free work you contribute; then they should probably re-evaluate why they choose to do copy-center open source to begin with, or use the GPL (and subsequenlty other open source platforms). I don't understand this sentiment at all.
Fight!

FreeBSD shouldn't get donations either.
Yes it should--forever!
 
That's a misquote.
The statement is also in support of: FreeBSD shouldn't get donations either.
I'm not saying FreeBSD shouldn't get donations. I'm saying the statement referenced is in support of FreeBSD shouldn't get donations either. Not saying that, he says, FreeBSD shouldn't get donations either, which I suppose he believes FreeBSD deserves donations, but that the statement he made justifies that notion, because in my view, if one doesn't deserve some kind of support, then the other one doesn't either. I know it's not a given, but I believe they deserve appreciation or compensation for their time and product within reason.

While disappointing, I don't fault the developer. While it can be argued, he doesn't deserve anything for his output which others make money off of, he more justifiably can shut down his production and do that whenever he feels like it. I believe a new license like LGPL, with the exception that it cannot become GPL'd, while remaining compatible if possible to GPL the way LGPL2+ is, would help. Maybe something further towards being halfway between a BSD and LGPL license. Or even a license similar to GPL, but that does not extend its viralness to dependencies it uses or past any API, could help.
 
Going back to the i386 to amd64 transition (32 bit vs 64 bit) messages on the mailing lists made me settle on GigaByte motherboards. Going by faulty memory (mine not the system) there were some issues with ASUS at that time, but I think current gen or "current minus 1 gen" mobos and appropriate CPUs are fine.
I have both Asus and Gigabyte motherboards, and both are fantastic for running FreeBSD. I actually started with an Asus B350 board for my very first hand-built rig because I was seeing random, unrelated bits of info that all said that Asus mobos have legendary reliability. And it's still going...
 
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If I had been born into my parents' generation I'm the kind of guy that would've bought an old car and turned it into a hot rod. Not a tremendously practical vehicle, but fast, stripped down, and simplified. Not necessarily the fastest you can buy, but faster than most.

By making it simple, I give myself power over it. The power of knowing exactly what each and every component does, how to troubleshoot it, and either fix it or remove it when it irks me.

Yes, I'm constantly working on it, but that to me is a pleasure. I know I could spend far less time and money if I just drove a mass produced product. Tinkering is part of the appeal.
 
Gee, I dunno... I've been using linux and freebsd as a desktop since, oh, the mid 90's I guess (?)... I remember having a 760xd running slackware (probably 1.3, can't remember). That's probably around the last time I used windows as a desktop. Maybe I got into freebsd a few years after linux, it's lost in the mists of time, I do remember having it running around the millenium.

I run Xorg and variously fvwm, windowmaker, blackbox, etc, wmaker is still my current window manager, its nice to see it still getting updates (www.windowmaker.org). I've used all the DE's like gnome, kde, unity etc but much prefer a standalone X window manager and standard X clients like xterm; less bloat, simpler, multiple virtual desktops, and more reliable. I don't miss all the eye candy and the apps the DE's provide. I've got all the development tools I could wish for, compilers, editors, there's a huge software selection. The CLI is my main interface to the machine of course. I've used this environment both as a professional software development system at work for many years and for home use.

I use libreoffice for office stuff. I currently like mupdf for pdf viewing. I still love xv for image viewing, of course there are lots of other image viewers. Cups works with my hp 3-in-1 laser job. Browsers all work of course, along with lots of other gui clients. Editor... vim. What's not to like? It's a really nice environment. Granted there's a learning curve, but there is for anything worth doing. If I want to script it I've got shell, perl, etc. There are plenty of media players, music players, graphics editors, drawing packages, etc etc. Great support online through forums like this one.

I had a desktop mac for a while but got sick of the forced obsolesence of the hardware ("your system is no longer supported by this update...") and all the hideous ways they mess unix up so you end up having to use mishmash of cli and gui to get things done, let alone all the security crap that stops you doing things. Windows.. the last usable one was NT 4.0, around the time they were competing with os/2, all the recent releases are almost unusable. IMHO macs and windows boxes are barely computers any more, they are more like leaf nodes onto someone elses big network. You don't own it, you don't know what it's doing most of the time, all the tedious updates, telemetry, and even advertising..

As a desktop.. I'm pretty happy with what I've got now. I can pretty much do whatever I need to do with it. Sure, it's not for ALL users, but as with anything, the more you put into it, the more you get out. It's a lot less opaque than a modern mac or windows box.

Maybe one area where this environment is lacking is availability of EDA software, electronics cad, VHDL design software, that kind of stuff. There isn't really a commercial market for that kind of stuff on linux/freebsd, AFAIK. And of course if you're doing professional video editing, 3d modelling like maya, then you're going to use something commercial, although there are things like blender. But those are all rather specialised, professional use-cases.

I remember a year or so ago I had to fudge around to get audio working through the headphone jack which was a bit of a pain though. Can't have everything :)

For suspend-resume support.. I've got a bunch of different thinkpads, I generally find suspend/resume works under freebsd. I have a rule of avoiding the 'p' variants with "professional" graphics from ATI and nvidia onboard, I stick to the integrated graphics. I also tend to stick to X, T and R series thinkpads rather than the W workstation-class series, although that's mainly because the W-series are so huge and heavy. I've got a couple of ex-corp lenovo thinkcentre desktops to try some time as well, suspend/resume works on those with linux, I don't know about freebsd yet.
:)
 
As far as I know, FreeBSD isn't a targeted platform for desktop focused applications and drivers; we're still piggybacking off of Linux for basic (if not all) desktop usability. Also, FreeBSD out-of-the-box, does not present it's own desktop experience; amongst many other issues. So it's not ready for the desktop IMO. Even if it were; good luck prying peoples Macs off their hands. The Mac is Unix on the desktop.

FreeBSD has survived for decades without being "popular" because its old as fuck and too legit to quit, homie. I don't understand why I read this as frequently as I do.

FreeBSD is incredibly popular; albeit for backend systems - servers, embedded, networking, etc. Everything single iPhone in existence is using FreeBSD networking code.
 
As far as I know, FreeBSD isn't a targeted platform for desktop focused applications and drivers; we're still piggybacking off of Linux for basic (if not all) desktop usability.
Wrong. The X Window System is much older than Linux. OpenGL isn't older, but came (largely) from SGI/IRIX. The fact that some desktop software nowadays is developed "Linux-centric" is a by-product of the popularity of Linux. There are still lots of projects (notably KDE) aiming for real portability. The only area where FreeBSD indeed takes from Linux is GPU hardware drivers.
Also, FreeBSD out-of-the-box, does not present it's own desktop experience; amongst many other issues.
FreeBSD doesn't include X11 and software using it in base. It does include all the infrastructure for GPU drivers (and included the drivers themselves, and aims to include them again). It includes a lot of tunables to adapt the OS to any workload, including typical desktop workloads. It includes a very good implementation of OSS/USS for sound (playback and capture). It includes drivers for lots of HID devices. I could go on.... There's a working group for FreeBSD on the desktop inside the project.

There's no objective measure for your statement, but IMHO, it's wrong as well.
The Mac is Unix on the desktop.
Uhm, sure. If you have no idea how a Unix desktop looks and feels like, that is. SGI sold "Unix on the desktop", just as an example.
 
The only area where FreeBSD indeed takes from Linux is GPU hardware drivers.
what about wifi card drivers? That is a weak area in FreeBSD, admittedly. I do have to buy Intel-branded replacements for my laptops, and even then, only get G-speeds.

Admittedly, G-speeds are not bad in practice, but when everybody expects theoretical N-speeds, they see G-only support in FreeBSD (from ifconfig), and get disappointed by, again, theoretical G-speeds, not by actual speeds the card even achieves in practice. Even AX cards will show slow download speeds if there's a bottleneck elsewhere. Kind of like getting garden-hose water flow even if you have a pipeline capable of MUCH more.
 
The X Window System is much older than Linux. OpenGL isn't older, but came (largely) from SGI/IRIX.

xorg, and mesa3d (the main open source implementation of OpenGL) are developed and maintained by the freedesktop.org community; largely a Linux centric community. improvements, bug fixes, etc are provided by them.

The fact that some desktop software nowadays is developed "Linux-centric" is a by-product of the popularity of Linux.

Exactly. piggybacking off of Linux. Don't cop out with that popularity nonsense. FreeBSD isn't attracting desktop developers.

There are still lots of projects (notably KDE) aiming for real portability.

Again, from the Linux community. development, bug fixes, improvements, etc.

The only area where FreeBSD indeed takes from Linux is GPU hardware drivers.

See LinuxKPI; again, from the Linux community.

There's no objective measure for your statement, but IMHO, it's wrong as well.

There can't be any; because FreeBSD doesn't offer anything to measure against what's available on the market.

Uhm, sure. If you have no idea how a Unix desktop looks and feels like, that is. SGI sold "Unix on the desktop", just as an example.

wtf are you talking about. I'm talking about what is, today. Besides, NeXTOS/SunOS was a much better platform for desktop publishing in the 80s. Apple won the Unix desktop war after they acquired NeXT and improved OS X. SGI is dead and gone.

You can go back to your cave now.
 
xorg, and mesa3d (the main open source implementation of OpenGL) are developed and maintained by the freedesktop.org community; largely a Linux centric community. improvements, bug fixes, etc are provided by them.
Both started out at MIT, where Stallman is also from...
FreeBSD isn't attracting desktop developers.
oh? They sure attracted KDE, have an active team, and a long history of cooperation... It was already active in 2004, when I first heard of it... and KDE was already a major porting effort at the time. yeah, KDE's devs use primiarily Linux. That didn't stop KDE from working very nicely on FreeBSD, and being even more up to date on FreeBSD than on some currently active distros...
SGI is dead and gone.
There's still enthusiasts who keep it running. No, it's not a commercial company that is traded on Wall Street, but there are people who scour ebay for SGI parts and assemble complete machines, and maintain software repos. I see 'em on FreeBSD's Discord server from time to time.
 
You can go back to your cave now.

Unnecessaurus Rex.

1699044710839.png
 
You can go back to your cave now.

What's your point with this aggressive put-down? Does it strengthen your argument?

If you're so enamoured of Linux 'on the desktop', why aren't you just using Linux?

I never run bleeding edge kit, but have been happily running KDE on Thinkpads since c. 2005, earler on desktop boxes concurrently serving web, mail and DNS for small networks.

Sad that it doesn't meet your desires, but suggesting that's the case for everybody else is demonstrably false.
 
What's your point with this aggressive put-down? Does it strengthen your argument?

I'm just teasing the delusion and contrarian trolling from some of the folks here. A sense of humor goes a long way.

If you're so enamoured of Linux 'on the desktop', why aren't you just using Linux?

I'm just reflecting the current situation with open source desktop; which has remained the same for a while. Do you see my sig? How dare you make such a claim - disgusting. I'm chugging along with macOS. I've tried BSD/KDE - lots of stuff was either broken, missing, or simply didn't work. Mind you, at the time I was using an Lenovo T480 with a touch display; top of the line hardware. All of the post mortem CLI configuration (especially missing ACPI/GUI integration, and crappy battery life).. a waste of time and energy. So I went back to macOS; and had significantly less stress and wasted time since then. Call it what you want, but most people would make the same decision I made.

Sad that it doesn't meet your desires, but suggesting that's the case for everybody else is demonstrably false.

Get out of your emotions; this isn't a cult. I simply stated my opinion that FreeBSD is not ready for the desktop; enterprise, professional, publishing, whatever environment. It's not there yet. This is coming from someone who used to manage a fleet of Macs. Macs have earned their stripes.

They sure attracted KDE, have an active team, and a long history of cooperation...

You're right. I've mentioned this many times. This is probably the most pragmatic path for the committers to ship a desktop release with the least amount of friction. With direct backing from either community; no BS spin-offs or whatever. But that's just the tip of the iceberg. The wider desktop application and device driver market isn't targeting FreeBSD. A KDE shipped released of FreeBSD could change that... could. The API/ABI stability of BSD/KDE makes it a no brainer.

The greater challenge IMO is convincing folks to adopt Qt/KDE Frameworks alongside Win32/Cocoa.
 
what about wifi card drivers?
AFAIK they're not largely taken from Linux... but maybe that could be part of a solution. I didn't directly link it to "desktop", therefore not relevant in the context of my response: Other kinds of systems (e.g. NAS) could need it as well. But indeed, desktop is probably the largest type of system that would profit from good wifi support.

That is a weak area in FreeBSD, admittedly.
I would say it's the relevant weakness currently :( – I'm lucky enough not to own any hardware that doesn't work at all, but only getting 802.11g is sometimes really annoying (e.g. during upgrades).

Beastie7 thanks for making it perfectly clear you didn't even want to "discuss" anything. My answer still stands for everyone actually interested.
 
Ahh different spaces/contexts. But I maintain my point about release notes and mailing lists is probably even more important, especially if suspend/hibernate with subsequent wakeup is important.

I get that, although it can be hard to find out exactly what is in a prebuilt computer (such as a laptop) before you have it in your hands.

It sounds nuts, but I've gotten use to suspend/resume rarely working outside of Windows/Mac, so I just leave them on 24/7 , even when I throw it in my traveling bag - although I do try to make sure it has some room to breathe and keep the CPU load to a minimum - I can't recall that I've ever seen this laptop overheat from doing that either. Only shut down when I know the battery is gonna die before I can get back to a plug.

Beastie7 The problem is, your comments are started and extended here ad nauseum and they are only repetitive of things brought up long ago. You also want FreeBSD to be Linux/Mac/Windows. FreeBSD isn't one of those so we do what we can with what we have and most of us are happy or content with it. We feel fine and you are poking people with a stick. Don't do that.

There seems to be alot of these lately and they all pretty much seem to boil down to that same thing (which is not allowed here) AKA "Why isn't/can't/dosen't FreeBSD...?". Quite frankly, those posts should get tossed in the dumpster.
 
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