I think, at this stage, I am finally convinced that FreeBSD is not ready for all desktop users.

[drhowarddrfine]

I get annoyed when a build takes more than 10 seconds

One company I worked for had expanded and we only had one PDP-8 (?) for all the engineers. When I had to compile my code, mostly assembly but changing to C, it would take hours to complete. Eventually we convinced management to get us one of those new Sun computer things that had just come out.

 

[grahamperrin]

… Teams screen sharing remote control is far less useful than Microsoft Quick Assist.

For entertainment (this type of thing is not unusual):

Sense of humour: essential in these situations.

 

[Jose]

One company I worked for had expanded and we only had one PDP-8 (?) for all the engineers. When I had to compile my code, mostly assembly but changing to C, it would take hours to complete. Eventually we convinced management to get us one of those new Sun computer things that had just come out

Too bad there was no XKCD at the time. This might've helped you with management:

 

[dr3mro]

FreeBSD is superior by design to GNU/Linux, and the current state of FreeBSD on the Desktop refreshes my memory to the year 2003 when I first used Linux, all the current issues back then are one to one copy of the current situation of FreeBSD, the community will step in and fix those with time, trust me.. I remember complaining about bluetooth and audio issues and suspend and resume, poor performance and now look at any Linux Distro. they are far better than windows and MacOs .. just wait and get the proper hardware for the Os you want to use. I usually think about the OS before buying the Hardware.
My second hand Thinkpad x270 has 99% working hardware with freeBSD 14.0Rc3
the issues :
1) cannot find a proper way to pair bluetooth headset even if BT works and tested but no tools to pair headphones
2) the hw acceleration on firefox is not the best. tried every tip and tweak and still suffer from issues[FIXED]
3) the screen tearing and mouse flickering issues (compositor) I think wayland might fix those but I stay with X for now
[FIXED]
4) FingerPrint sensor not working at all
other than that every thing works just fine.
see.
It can be done. but carefully sellect you hardware.

 

[Deleted member 13721]

I can be done. but carefully sellect you hardware.

Indeed. I've found it's best to get stuff that's a bit aged (a year or two after release), avoid exotic hardware and stick with stuff that uses common components.

 

[drhowarddrfine]

zspider If you only look for old hardware then you'll always have old hardware. In my case, I only look for the best hardware that works with FreeBSD and I built my complete systems using all new, latest things.

 

[dr3mro]

[FONT=monospace]zspider[/FONT] If you only look for old hardware then you'll always have old hardware. In my case, I only look for the best hardware that works with FreeBSD and I built my complete systems using all new, latest things.

you can always consider GNU/Linux for that, but freeBSD community is smaller in size compared to the GNU/Linux one and supporting all the new hardware needs cash to buy and test it and that ain't cheap.

 

[drhowarddrfine]

dr3mro That still didn't stop me from building my desktop using all the lbeeding edge stuff back then.

 

[astyle]

Indeed. I've found it's best to get stuff that's a bit aged (a year or two after release), avoid exotic hardware and stick with stuff that uses common components.

I built a rig with a Ryzen 7 5800x and Radeon RX 6900 XT a couple years ago, when the sienna_cichlid amdgpu driver was new (and so was this thread, FWIW ). And I was able to get KDE with Wayland from ports (not pkg) running on THAT. It's just a matter of being willing to spend the time doing research, and being willing to adjust expectations when they don't fit with reality on the screen.

I've come across people who want to be able to control the color of the backlight on their Bluetooth gaming keyboards. For them, it's a deal breaker to be unable to do that on FreeBSD out of the box, with minimal time/effort, or having good instructions handy. "If I can't do that kind of thing, easily, on FreeBSD, I don't want FreeBSD" is their mantra. My take is, those people are the ones missing out... We can show them the screenshots thread (Good stuff starts at page 14... ), and point out, that yeah, FreeBSD has its shortcomings, and it has fans who are willing to live with those shortcomings.

 

[kpedersen]

I've come across people who want to be able to control the color of the backlight on their Bluetooth gaming keyboards. For them, it's a deal breaker to be unable to do that on FreeBSD out of the box

I kind of feel that they are so far off the mark in their ability to choose the right tool for the job that they shouldn't be near a general purpose computer.

Its like someone walking into a car showroom and stating "if the car can't unblock a toilet, I don't want a car".

Yes, a car is the wrong tool for the job. Linux is perfect for toilets. We shouldn't be afraid of directing people straight there. FreeBSD does not need to cater for non-technical people, there are better solutions that it can't hope to compete with.

 

[cy@]

Hmm. I've been using FreeBSD for a desktop system since 2.0.5 in 1995 and I continue to today, having used various environments from fvwm to mwm to gnome to kde to a commercial version of CDE for Freebsd. Then to xfce and lxde back to mwm and finally to Open Source CDE (x11/cde-devel).

 

[mer]

"What hardware to use?" Different answer if the rest of the question is "buy new" or "reuse".

My experience has been to actually read release notes, mailing lists. I did this extensively when the shift was from i386 to amd64 because there was a lot of chatter about some mobos not working.
A simple "rule of thumb" for me has been "1 generation back of CPU", simply because there has been enough time to work out most of the quirks.
That said once you pick amd64 architecture, the biggest potential issue is GPU. Drivers may not have support for the latest gen GPU, but most GPUs should fall back to a compatible mode (meaning you need to tweak config files).
Storage devices? I think this is a non issue, perhaps some NVME devices as an outlier.
Maybe some latest gen USB3, WiFi devices are troublesome.

Just read the release notes and look on the mailing lists; you'll avoid a lot of heartache.

above is just my opinion.

 

[YYY__]

FreeBSD does not need to cater for non-technical people, there are better solutions that it can't hope to compete with.

I think it should appear in the About section. It says which machine it's aimed at, but not what kind of person is expected. Disputes would disappear. If that's really what is expected of FreeBSD.

 

[astyle]

NVME devices as an outlier.
Maybe some latest gen USB3,

I use NTFS-formatted storage devices (like an M.2 2280 Samsung 980 Pro 2TB) that connect to my 13.2-RELEASE laptop via USB-C, and with sysutils/fusefs-ntfs, FreeBSD takes them like a champ, even better than win11

CuatroTorres : Your wish has been fulfilled. The About section has a link to the list of supported platforms in the very first sentence. A lot of Linux distros make that claim... "This project is so easy, it's practically tailor-made for you!" I do see issues with blatantly stating what the 'intended audience' is.

 

[YYY__]

"This project is so easy, it's practically tailor-made for you!" I do see issues with blatantly stating what the 'intended audience' is.

It's just where I want to go.

Something like the forum warns.

Most of the forums are technical: they are for technical discussion.

But nothing about bias towards the person's ability.

Do I need to be a doctor to take medication? Do I need to be a dentist to brush my teeth?
Probably not. You will follow the instructions for use. It's not like driving a bulldozer in a crowded square.

 

[patmaddox]

The OP's subject is 100% correct: FreeBSD is not ready for all desktop users.

Just as Windows is not ready for all desktop users,
MacOS is not ready for all desktop users,
GNU/Linux is not ready for all desktop users.

Turns out "all users" is a lot, and almost nothing works for "all users".

It also turns out that FreeBSD is excellent - perhaps the best choice even - for many users (including desktop users).

 

[Deleted member 13721]

zspider If you only look for old hardware then you'll always have old hardware. In my case, I only look for the best hardware that works with FreeBSD and I built my complete systems using all new, latest things.

I should add that mostly applies to laptops. Desktops obviously give you far more options. Things for us laptop users are more rigid.
If I roll the dice and throw FreeBSD at a new laptop chances are good it won't fully work right away, hence why looking for something that's a generation or two behind, which has already had time to gain support. Also if you wait you can get good deals on that slightly older hardware (that they're trying to move) and it still works perfectly fine.

I've come across people who want to be able to control the color of the backlight on their Bluetooth gaming keyboards. For them, it's a deal breaker to be unable to do that on FreeBSD out of the box, with minimal time/effort, or having good instructions handy. "If I can't do that kind of thing, easily, on FreeBSD, I don't want FreeBSD" is their mantra. My take is, those people are the ones missing out... We can show them the screenshots thread (Good stuff starts at page 14... ), and point out, that yeah, FreeBSD has its shortcomings, and it has fans who are willing to live with those shortcomings.

I long ago accepted that was the price one had to pay for using non Windows/Mac operating systems - that not everything would necessarily work - ie multimedia keys and stuff. What mattered (and matters) more is the pleasure and joy of being able to use this great OS. It's a drug for me.

Yes, a car is the wrong tool for the job. Linux is perfect for toilets. We shouldn't be afraid of directing people straight there. FreeBSD does not need to cater for non-technical people, there are better solutions that it can't hope to compete with.

Yes, indeed. It should keep focused on what it was meant to be and that is being free and open source UNIX.

Interestingly there's an OS called SerenityOS and they intentionally made it so you have to compile the system to keep bad influences from messing up the project.

 

[mer]

I should add that mostly applies to laptops. Desktops obviously give you far more options. Things for us laptop users are more rigid.

It's a drug for me.

Ahh different spaces/contexts. But I maintain my point about release notes and mailing lists is probably even more important, especially if suspend/hibernate with subsequent wakeup is important. I personally have no opinion on laptops beyond this. I personally always start with the needed applications. (Assumption being non-work daily driver) then the OS. Things like a browser or email application, honestly the OS doesn't matter. Other things, maybe the application of choice is only available on a single OS. For me, FreeBSD has supported enough applications as a daily driver for a long time, so it's been mine for a long time.

astyle NTFS living dangerously

patmaddox Excellent point. Thank you for the reminder

 

[patmaddox]

Lenovo outlet is a great place to get compatible hardware. Lenovo main store probably not… they always have the absolute latest stuff, which makes sense from a consumer standpoint, but as has been noted can be tough to run on RELEASE.

I do understand people’s aversion to putting in the work to find compatible hardware, get it working, etc. One of our favorite phrases in the tech world is “why don’t you just…” and we tend to optimize for short-term convenience rather than long-term effectiveness.

The problem is that we end up with technology that gets worse over time, not better. How many people have had a Mac for five years, and thought “man this thing works better than the day I bought it!” It doesn’t happen. If you depend on it, you avoid changing things as much as possible so it doesn’t break irreparably, until it gets so bogged down that you reinstall the OS from scratch (or buy a new machine - surely not something Apple could have foreseen!).

FreeBSD makes a different deal. There’s a higher onboarding cost in terms of producing a solid baseline, and no guardrails. But from there you can gradually massage it into something that meets your needs, in a way that a Mac could never do. My FreeBSD machines help me accomplish my work far more effectively than they did the day I first booted them successfully, and without the inexplicable performance degradation.

Most computer users don’t care about any of this, and why should they? But I’ve been working as a developer for a long time - I have clear ideas on how to put a computer to work, and for the most part am capable of making it happen. An open system, with all its warts and wrinkles, is a worthwhile investment for the sort of work I do.

Best of all, I’m part of a community of like-minded people. We don’t agree on everything, but our values align enough that individual effort tends to make things better for most people involved in it.

Typed on my iPhone.

 

[BaronBS]

"What hardware to use?" Different answer if the rest of the question is "buy new" or "reuse".

My experience has been to actually read release notes, mailing lists. I did this extensively when the shift was from i386 to amd64 because there was a lot of chatter about some mobos not working.
A simple "rule of thumb" for me has been "1 generation back of CPU", simply because there has been enough time to work out most of the quirks.
That said once you pick amd64 architecture, the biggest potential issue is GPU. Drivers may not have support for the latest gen GPU, but most GPUs should fall back to a compatible mode (meaning you need to tweak config files).
Storage devices? I think this is a non issue, perhaps some NVME devices as an outlier.
Maybe some latest gen USB3, WiFi devices are troublesome.

Just read the release notes and look on the mailing lists; you'll avoid a lot of heartache.

above is just my opinion.

how about motherboards?

 

[mer]

how about motherboards?

Going back to the i386 to amd64 transition (32 bit vs 64 bit) messages on the mailing lists made me settle on GigaByte motherboards. Going by faulty memory (mine not the system) there were some issues with ASUS at that time, but I think current gen or "current minus 1 gen" mobos and appropriate CPUs are fine.

 

[astyle]

The OP's subject is 100% correct: FreeBSD is not ready for all desktop users.

Just as Windows is not ready for all desktop users,
MacOS is not ready for all desktop users,
GNU/Linux is not ready for all desktop users.

Turns out "all users" is a lot, and almost nothing works for "all users".

It also turns out that FreeBSD is excellent - perhaps the best choice even - for many users (including desktop users).

Yeah, just using 'All', 'Everyone' 'Nobody', and similar terms - that's not a Best Practice. That gets demonstrated time and again...

 

[kpedersen]

I think it should appear in the About section. It says which machine it's aimed at, but not what kind of person is expected. Disputes would disappear. If that's really what is expected of FreeBSD.

Agreed. Though clearly there is a thin line between being realistic and being hostile to new users.

However I feel that the foundation is actually struggling to maintain that balance. It is too easy to say "everyone's welcome, even those who will never be happy with the projects goals". OpenBSD does much better here and objectively has remained more organised and focused as a result.

For Linux, I actually feel that the flood of Steam DRM platform gamers is verging on detrimental. Their sole focus is superficial desktop visuals, at the expense of almost everything else on the OS. If it made their little games run faster, they would be quite happy to vote to remove the entire terminal system.

 

[mer]

OpenBSD does much better here and objectively has remained more organised and focused as a result.

Theo: My way or the highway
Yes some sarcasm there, but it's at least 50% true.

 

[kpedersen]

Theo: My way or the highway
Yes some sarcasm there, but it's at least 50% true.

Indeed. The weakness is definitely that it is *one* guy that is maintaining the balance.

There is a slight culture there that tends to flow in the same "semi-reasonable" way but if Theo did ever disappear, who knows what would happen. They... might... reinstate bluetooth! Argh!