I think, at this stage, I am finally convinced that FreeBSD is not ready for all desktop users.

I don't know if this is still true, but I do remember that at one point, Dell was offering Ubuntu laptops. However, they weren't easy to find on the page and I feel as if I remember them being more expensive than the Windows equivalent. When netbooks seemed like they were going to be a thing, Asus, (I think) offered a Linux version with a very slow 8-10 G hard drive, running a customized version of Fedora. It was horrible. Then they offered a Windows one with a 160 G hard drive. I wound up returning the Linux one and wiping Windows and installing Linux on the Windows one.

At present, Lenovo offers Linux laptops with either Fedora or Ubuntu. I don't know how they compare with equivalent Windows laptops.
 
OE vendors tip-toe into shipping Linux because they know it's a broken system with a hostile community. Just look at the treatment Nvidia receives.
 
Honestly, a lot of Nvidia's treatment stems from how they interact with the Linux community. This isn't something new either, as they treated Linux with the same treatment as when blacks were enslaved. This also applied to other companies too, as I know ATI often had the same philosophy way before they were bought out. Think about how Nvidia is treating FreeBSD as it is now? We already know we are not even getting the same support as Linux has been getting for the same hardware. Lately, it's been appearing more that Nvidia has been dragging it's feet when others has already started taking advantage of open source software to make a profit.
 
Dell computers with Linux

… was offering Ubuntu …

Current UK offers:
Ubuntu | Dell UKDell Linux Recovery Image | Dell UK etc.

HP computers with Linux

HP Z2 Mini | The world's first mini workstation designed for CAD users - HP Store UK

HP ZBook Fury 15 G7 (2021-05-12)

… maybe more; HP Workstations Linux Hardware Matrix (2021-06-25)
 
Scottro: There has always been a niche business with Linux (and other Unix) laptops. Matter-of-fact, in all of my recent jobs (last ~25 years), I've had some colleagues who use various Unix flavors on their desktop or laptop. And since about 2005 or so, my employers have supported that, and issued laptops pre-installed with Linux. But: Compared to the huge number of people using Windows and Mac, that's a drop in the bucket. And a lot of the actual laptops are bought with a Windows license, and then people just wipe the disk and install the OS of their choice. For example, all my non-Mac laptops I have at home (I'm down to about 4 or 5) have a sticker on the bottom with their Windows license number, and if I wanted to, I could refresh their OSes.

And OEMs like Dell have sold Linux machines for ages. In tiny numbers, and usually non-existing support.

Today, way more engineers use Chromebooks instead of Unix laptops. All the interesting computers are in the cloud anyway, so who cares what CPU and OS is attached to your keyboard and monitor.

How many people remember the Alpha (TadPole), PowerPC (ThinkPad 800) and Sparc laptops? The Alpha one was particularly funny, as its battery life under load was minutes.
 
Compared to the huge number of people using Windows and Mac, that's a drop in the bucket.
I do notice that a lot of companies enforcing Windows is due to an old corporate policy being set many years ago, back when Windows had a much clearer edge in the market, in terms of price and functionality. A mix of Windows regressing as a consumer OS and free platforms becoming stronger has changed this balance. However many of these corporate policies remain. Though I do think people should start to see them more for what they are. Arbitrary.

I actually find the popularity of macOS an interesting symptom. They are hard to fix, difficult to procure hardware (in bulk for an enterprise) and yet they actually seem to hold a strong market-share even after all this. Perhaps it shows that people really are not happy with Windows. Or it simply shows Apple is better at marketing. Obviously Apple's targetting of Students was a classic ploy to make them relevant in later life and it seems to be working.

How many people remember the [...] PowerPC (ThinkPad 800)
I did try to get hold of one about 10 years ago (obviously they were old and rare then too!). I am fairly certain if IBM did another batch (even running the same ancient AIX), that they would sell like hotcakes.
 
I actually find the popularity of macOS an interesting symptom. They are hard to fix, difficult to procure hardware (in bulk for an enterprise) and yet they actually seem to hold a strong market-share even after all this. Perhaps it shows that people really are not happy with Windows. Or it simply shows Apple is better at marketing. Obviously Apple's targetting of Students was a classic ploy to make them relevant in later life and it seems to be working.
It's quite simple: the TCO of Apple hardware is much much lower compared to having a Windows computer for a company. People using MacOS are happier, more productive and you do need much less support staff for them compared to Windows.

Even more important for corporate/professional users, who want to get their job done and do need the industry standard tools being available to do so, on MacOS most of these tools/programs are being available natively: Microsoft Office, Adobe Photoshop, Adobe Indesign, Logic Pro, Final Cut Pro and so on. So these users don't have to retrain themselves to a new program, but instead can use what they're used to have since ages. Big plus. And this data then is of course totally interchangeable with the Windows world, if the need is there, another big plus.

By the way if you don't believe that the TCO of a amount of Apple hardware is lower than having a big amount of Windows computers: this is not my imagination, nor opinion. This is the result of IBM having rolled out over 200.000 Macs globally since 2015, and having done a thoroughly analysis on that hardware including all costs.

According to IBM they do need 22 people as support staff to support 5400 PC users, for the same amount of Macs they do need just one person. IBM manages to support the over 200000 Macs with just 7 employees. These are by no small margin indeed impressive numbers.

So it is IBM telling us: while Apple is more expensive to buy, people using it are happier, more productive, can use their beloved tools they'
ve grown to use, doing a better job, stay longer in the company and it needs much much less support compared to Windows. Under that angle it is quite understandable that Apple hardware makes a lot of sense in a corporate environment.
 
Scottro: There has always been a niche business with Linux (and other Unix) laptops. Matter-of-fact, in all of my recent jobs (last ~25 years), I've had some colleagues who use various Unix flavors on their desktop or laptop. And since about 2005 or so, my employers have supported that, and issued laptops pre-installed with Linux. But: Compared to the huge number of people using Windows and Mac, that's a drop in the bucket. And a lot of the actual laptops are bought with a Windows license, and then people just wipe the disk and install the OS of their choice.
Yes, because they know how to do that!

That is the essential point: all of us who are discussing here are expected to know what we do: to know at least the basics of how a computer works, what a disk is, what a filesystem is, etc.

Now lets face it: knowing how a computer works is not considered cool! It is not the image of a role model in some social regard.
Rather the opposite: people tend to be proud to not know how a computer works. (Specifically managers of IT-companies agree on being very proud not to know what a computer is. They instead know that the figures are important, and that is what counts.)

It is specifically these people who are targeted by the Windows offering. (And it is those of them who deem themselve 'elite' who are targeted by the AppleMac offering.) The difference is: Windows is not an OS. It is a program loader for viruses - and this is unique, it's the only way you can get viruses!

And this can be taken a lot further, it is not only concerning computers. In a time of mostly rural work it is desireable to have a pale skin. In a time of mostly office work it becomes desireable to have tanned skin. In a time of information overflow it becomes desireable to not know. (because it respectively translates to affording the leasure.)
And THAT is the actual Windows offering. Why else should somebody buy a computer for private use? Running computers is not a thing that makes you get the girls laid.

So, the important point is not that people use Windows instead of Linux or Berkeley, that is just a corollary. The really important (and very dangerous) issue is that we now have a culture where the elite is distinguished by not knowing about the things they do.
 
This is the result of IBM having rolled out over 200.000 Macs globally since 2015, and having done a thoroughly analysis on that hardware including all costs.
Thats cool. I would never have even believed IBM would have rolled out Macs! These guys haven't acted outside of the corporate box since before the 90's. In some ways I love them for that. They are like a living(?) museum.

My personal experience with TCO isn't with Windows itself but the corporate "image" of Windows that the IT services spit out. All the drivers are completely fscky and I have yet to see a roaming profile ever work on Windows. This maintenance is what costs (time and loss of productivity mainly).

Yes, because they know how to do that!
Sadly I am just seeing a lot of guys who "know how to do that" being constrained by dumb internal policies. Or a single (perceived!) "must have" app that the higher ups have arbitrarily chosen due to a cooler colour scheme.
 
… the TCO of a amount of Apple hardware is lower than having a big amount of Windows computers …

This can be true.

… According to IBM they do need 22 people as support staff to support 5400 PC users, for the same amount of Macs they do need just one person. IBM manages to support the over 200000 Macs with just 7 employees. …

Given the Jamf Nation User Conference context, I wonder whether IBM spends ~$28 million more, annually, than the salaries of those seven people.

Food for thought (not definitive), from 2017:
– and Help Desk Staff to User Ratio | ITSM | SolarWinds Service Desk Blog (2018-05-30); and so on.

… a lot of companies enforcing Windows is due to an old corporate policy … Arbitrary. …

Not arbitrary here.
 
I actually find the popularity of macOS an interesting symptom.
When I worked at SGI in the 90s, the first standard issue was a Mac. Everyone had one because all you had to do was plug it in to the network and everything just worked.

The same is true for my son and all his artistic/filmmaking/stage production folk. Everything they do is on a Mac cause it works everywhere with everything in their industry.
 
Scottro: There has always been a niche business with Linux (and other Unix) laptops. Matter-of-fact, in all of my recent jobs (last ~25 years), I've had some colleagues who use various Unix flavors on their desktop or laptop. And since about 2005 or so, my employers have supported that, and issued laptops pre-installed with Linux...
This is true in my professional bubble as well. I'd go so far as to say that almost all the technical staff is on Mac or Linux. The reason for this is that our deployment environment is Linux. There's just too big of an impedance mismatch with Windows to develop on it and deploy on Linux. Too many problems creep in because of the stark difference in the platforms. Apple did us no favors by deciding to emulate Windows and go with a case-insensitive filesystem by default. This still causes problems sometimes.

But your larger point is well-taken. These professional bubbles are a tiny drop in the bucket compared to the hordes of "Enterprise" Windows users. And even they are a tiny fraction of the hordes of Android and IOS users, which is why I ponder the wisdom of wading into this thread again. We're discussing pre-installing operating systems on desktops like it's 2008. That ship has sailed, folks. The desktop is just not all that important anymore. Embrace the long tail.
 
… plug it in to the network and everything just worked. …

The Network pane of System Preferences in Mac OS X is superb. How to use network locations on your Mac – Apple Support

If I rate Apple's Network pane five-star …




… nothing for FreeBSD comes close; the best things are two-star (three if I'm charitable).

I've been frustrated, by the absence of a good GUI, for years. In recent months I began trying to make things smoother for myself, ultimately I'm more frustrated. I wish I had ignored the whole caboodle.
 
I actually find the popularity of macOS an interesting symptom. They are hard to fix, difficult to procure hardware (in bulk for an enterprise) and yet they actually seem to hold a strong market-share even after all this.
They need hardly any fixing. For the most part, the hardware quality is much better than other laptops (exceptions discussed below). The software quality will be discussed below too. Quantity purchasing is trivial, both for education (I've personally bought MacBook Airs by the dozen for education, and my employers buy them by the tens of thousands). Setting up internal upgrade / management servers is trivial, because it is engineered by Apple.

The hardware exception is occasional glitches: MacBook Airs had a string of problems with CPU and GPU chips coming loose from the motherboard; the current generation MacBook Pros has terrible keyboard reliability problems.

Obviously Apple's targetting of Students was a classic ploy to make them relevant in later life and it seems to be working.
I've worked for a company where many people used Macs, but most employees were of an age that they had NO computers in school, and mainframes using punched cards in college.

I did try to get hold of one about 10 years ago (obviously they were old and rare then too!). I am fairly certain if IBM did another batch (even running the same ancient AIX), that they would sell like hotcakes.
Doing another batch would be impossible today; one would have to engineer all the chips from scratch. It would actually be faster to emulate the PowerPC instruction set on an Intel or Arm machine.

And I doubt the "selling like hotcakes": Lenovo did a "T20 memorial edition laptop" with the 7-row keyboard recently; they lost their shirt on it: hundreds and hundreds of enthusiasts bought them, but to make a laptop model profitable, you need to hundreds of thousands.

It's quite simple: the TCO of Apple hardware is much much lower compared to having a Windows computer for a company. People using MacOS are happier, more productive and you do need much less support staff for them compared to Windows.
Exactly. Macs have far fewer problems, and need much less support. And that's the real cost, which dwarves the hardware and software purchase cost. At one former employer, the central IT organization was charging departments $1800/month for every employee, to pay for access to networking, e-mail, internal tools, printing, support; for that charge you also get one laptop or desktop computer. As you can see from the price, the ~$1500 every 2-3 years for the laptop hardware or the $50 for the Windows license is irrelevantly small.

By the way if you don't believe that the TCO of a amount of Apple hardware is lower than having a big amount of Windows computers: this is not my imagination, nor opinion. This is the result of IBM having rolled out over 200.000 Macs globally since 2015, and having done a thoroughly analysis on that hardware including all costs.
I was at IBM from 2000 onwards. Initially I used a Windows laptop (for a little while, I also had a Linux desktop, until I switched that to Windows). In about 2009, I switched to an (IBM supported and provided) Mac laptop. While corporate IT was pushing Linux laptops for a while, they back-pedaled after the support costs exploded, and made the Mac the preferred platform: simply because of higher productivity (Mac's weren't down often) and less support cost.

IBM manages to support the over 200000 Macs with just 7 employees.
That number is a mis-interpretation. I would believe that the central IT planning/managing/programming department for Mac's might be 7 people. But the typical deskside and network support staff is more like 1-2% of all employees, meaning about 4,000 support staff at IBM's size.

(Talking about Linux ...)
Yes, because they know how to do that!
That is also an important observation. If you take Linux laptops, and issue them to software engineers, you will have very few support problems. That's because the users will fix things themselves. Now take those same Linux laptops and issue them to project managers, budget analysts, mathematicians, analytical chemists (all highly educated and intelligent people), and you have a disaster at your hands. That's because they are not computer people who dig into source code when something isn't perfect. I literally had a colleague who would run a modified Linux kernel on his laptop to optimize something, because he could.

Thats cool. I would never have even believed IBM would have rolled out Macs!
Not only did they roll out Macs very early (I think starting in 2004 or 05), they also resold the used employee Macs to their employees at a steep discount. My home Mac is a 2008 MBP, which I bought used from IBM (my employer) in 2010 or 2011. It still works, and I still use it for personal stuff (alas, without a functioning battery).

Sadly I am just seeing a lot of guys who "know how to do that" being constrained by dumb internal policies. Or a single (perceived!) "must have" app that the higher ups have arbitrarily chosen due to a cooler colour scheme.
Not due to a cooler color scheme. Not due to them wanting "a virus downloader". But due to very sensible efficiency constraints. For example: It makes perfect sense for a whole corporation (whether it is 10 people or half a million) to use a single, coherent e-mail system, which implies everyone using the same mail client (we call that MUA in software land). From a compatibility and support standpoint, it is the only sensible solution. Once in a while, this leads to disasters (current IBM troubles with Notes are an example), but most of the time it is great and necessary.

I'd go so far as to say that almost all the technical staff is on Mac or Linux. The reason for this is that our deployment environment is Linux. There's just too big of an impedance mismatch with Windows to develop on it and deploy on Linux.
I have been using Windows and Mac as my laptop/desktop machine for just about ever. For the last ~20 years, all my deployment environment has been Linux or a commercial Unix (AIX, HP-UX). As a software engineer, what you run on your laptop has nothing to do with where you deploy, because you don't actually compile and link on your laptop machine. That would be insane: it is way underpowered. The actual work gets done on big iron: mainframe-like machines, clusters, and the cloud, all machines that are very large, highly efficient, and somewhere in a data center. Today, it makes very little difference whether that data center is in the basement of my office building, or on the opposite corner of the continent. Matter-of-fact, from either my home or my office it would take several days by car to reach my main login machine at work.

Other than amateurs, for at least a decade software development has not been happening on the machine that your keyboard and screen are attached to.

Note that this applies to software engineering. Other professions still run on local machines: Graphics, video and audio production, electrical engineering EDA (like CAD tools). This stuff is only very slowly moving off-desk, because of the high-bandwidth user interface needs. For software engineering, with something like emacs/vi, Eclipse, and web-based bug tracking and source control tools, it makes much more sense to run in a data center. One of the advantages: When I say the equivalent of "make", I have anywhere between dozens machines and thousands of them at my disposal.

And even they are a tiny fraction of the hordes of Android and IOS users, which is why I ponder the wisdom of wading into this thread again. We're discussing pre-installing operating systems on desktops like it's 2008. That ship has sailed, folks. The desktop is just not all that important anymore. Embrace the long tail.
From a total computing throughput point of view, that is totally true. Somewhere I saw a statistic that about 80% of all computer usage, as measured by web traffic, now comes from two OSes: Android and iOS. But for user-interface intensive tasks (such as engineering), the laptop is still the preferred mode.
 
Rather the opposite: people tend to be proud to not know how a computer works. (Specifically managers of IT-companies agree on being very proud not to know what a computer is.
I would be the employee from Hell and it's a good thing I do not work there because I already know what would happen.

They suffer from a psychological condition known as the Dunning-Kruger Effect. A cognitive bias and error in thought processing in which someone who is in reality of relatively low intelligence believes they are smarter than everyone and can't see for themselves what is obvious to everyone else.

We see it here quite often. Although you might not have been aware there was a formal name for it beyond the one I used in addressing the issue just a couple days ago.

This being my field as a Qualified Mental Retardation Professional, having been open and honest about never working IT, or finishing High School, please allow me to document it for reliable future reference for readers forthwith.

Not to mention the the added benefit of those who may think I am afflicted with it, and please, be brutally honest and verbose in telling me if I do, because how else will I ever know? :rolleyes:

This article also addresses questions that have been previously posed about a woman's ability to work in the tech field:

The effect is named after researchers David Dunning and Justin Kruger, the two social psychologists who first described it. In their original study on this psychological phenomenon, they performed a series of four investigations.

People who scored in the lowest percentiles on tests of grammar, humor, and logic also tended to dramatically overestimate how well they had performed (their actual test scores placed them in the 12th percentile, but they estimated that their performance placed them in the 62nd percentile).

"In many cases, incompetence does not leave people disoriented, perplexed, or cautious," wrote David Dunning in an article for Pacific Standard. "Instead, the incompetent are often blessed with an inappropriate confidence, buoyed by something that feels to them like knowledge."

Low performers are unable to recognize the skill and competence levels of other people, which is part of the reason why they consistently view themselves as better, more capable, and more knowledgeable than others.

This effect can have a profound impact on what people believe, the decisions they make, and the actions they take. In one study, Dunning and Ehrlinger found that women performed equally to men on a science quiz, and yet women underestimated their performance because they believed they had less scientific reasoning ability than men. The researchers also found that as a result of this belief, these women were more likely to refuse to enter a science competition.

Dunning and his colleagues have also performed experiments in which they ask respondents if they are familiar with a variety of terms related to subjects including politics, biology, physics, and geography. Along with genuine subject-relevant concepts, they interjected completely made-up terms.

In one such study, approximately 90 percent of respondents claimed that they had at least some knowledge of the made-up terms. Consistent with other findings related to the Dunning-Kruger effect, the more familiar participants claimed that they were with a topic, the more likely they were to also claim they were familiar with the meaningless terms. As Dunning has suggested, the very trouble with ignorance is that it can feel just like expertise.

So what explains this psychological effect? Are some people simply too dense, to be blunt, to know how dim-witted they are? Dunning and Kruger suggest that this phenomenon stems from what they refer to as a "dual burden." People are not only incompetent; their incompetence robs them of the mental ability to realize just how inept they are.


It goes on.

The women believed they were incompetent because they had been programmed to believe it by a society that promoted a cognitive bias as a Standard Belief. More commonly known as spousal abuse in the home environment.
 
I worked at a datacenter. And before entering the serverroom was a big console room. Full of terminals and comfortable chairs. The idea behind it was to limit physical access to the serverroom as much as possible. E.g. for if someone accidentaly would pull out a power cable or network cable.
 
… This article also addresses questions that have been previously posed about a woman's ability to work in the tech field: … <https://www.verywellmind.com/an-overview-of-the-dunning-kruger-effect-4160740> …

A great article, thanks.

… resold the used employee Macs to their employees at a steep discount. My home Mac is a 2008 MBP, which I bought used from IBM (my employer) in 2010 or 2011. …

I'd love this to happen (not just for Macs) in my environment, but there's simply not the infrastructure for it to happen attractively. Maybe in the future.

For now, I work to a write-off and disposal policy that sometimes bothers me, personally, but I understand the corporate reasoning.
 
I worked at a datacenter. And before entering the serverroom was a big console room. Full of terminals and comfortable chairs. The idea behind it was to limit physical access to the serverroom as much as possible. E.g. for if someone accidentaly would pull out a power cable or network cable.
Old joke: The way to run a computer (in today's world, a data center) is to hire a man and a dog. The man is there to feed the dog. The dog is there to bite the man if he tries to touch the computer.

Today's big data center operators are all trying to replace data center technicians with robots, for tasks like deploying/removing racks of servers, building racks, swapping disks or motherboards, and maintenance like fan and filter cleaning. Why? Not because robots are cheaper. They are not, building automatable data centers is expensive, and implementing robotics is heinously expensive. No, because robots are more reliable and don't make mistakes.

The storage industry has actually studied this, and it finds over and over that humans are the #1 source of data loss. Not disk drives (we have that under control with RAID), not natural disasters (we do geographic replication for that), but dumb mistakes. The classic one is this: You have a pair of drives for simple mirroring in the server. In normal operation, both drives have a green blinking LED on the front, indicating that they have power and are performing IO. The left drive fails. No problem, an automated system detects that, turns on the red LED on the left drive, and notifies field service automatically. Field service shows up with a spare drive, logs in, and types the command for beginning the replacement process. The system turns on a bright blinking blue LED on the left drive, to help the human find the failed drive. The human pulls out the right drive, puts in a new spare, ignores the fact that they now have two blinking red LEDs, puts the good drive (with the only good copy of the data) into the recycling bin, and leaves, leaving the customer with data loss. This is not a joke, this is a real-world scenario that happens all the time. And this is why high end storage systems have little solenoid-operated locks on the disk trays, which prevent field service from removing disks unless the system agrees that they need to be replaced.
 
I have been using Windows and Mac as my laptop/desktop machine for just about ever. For the last ~20 years, all my deployment environment has been Linux or a commercial Unix (AIX, HP-UX). As a software engineer, what you run on your laptop has nothing to do with where you deploy, because you don't actually compile and link on your laptop machine.
My laptop builds the source I'm working on as soon as I save a change. It's Eclipse that does this for me, and Intellij Idea for most of my coworkers.

I occasionally run the Gradle build locally too to make sure I haven't broken it, or to run the unit tests outside of Eclipse just to be sure.
That would be insane: it is way underpowered. The actual work gets done on big iron: mainframe-like machines, clusters, and the cloud, all machines that are very large, highly efficient, and somewhere in a data center.
Our system is broken up into many smaller projects that are more or less independent. My mac is more than powerful enough to build any one of them. I get annoyed when a build takes more than 10 seconds (I blame Gradle).

The QA, Staging, and Production builds are done in crappy little containers running under AWS's Elastic Container Service. They are way less powerful than my Mac.
Other than amateurs, for at least a decade software development has not been happening on the machine that your keyboard and screen are attached to.
I guess that makes me an amateur! Nobody tell my employer! I need that paycheck.
 
I guess that makes me an amateur! Nobody tell my employer! I need that paycheck.
Heh same. Quick iterations are so important to me. Possibly I have a slightly OCD habit to build after every ~5 lines of code. I need reassurance! ;)

Though certainly the production build (for each target platform) is rarely done from my workstation. For that we have a big scatty mishmash of servers that no-one remembers who set up. They seem to think it was me but I have no memory of this.
 
Our system is broken up into many smaller projects that are more or less independent. My mac is more than powerful enough to build any one of them. I get annoyed when a build takes more than 10 seconds (I blame Gradle).
An interesting way to do it. I haven't seen anything like this in a long time. I used to get upset at long build times, when they reached a minute or two. But using larger and larger clusters fixed that for me.

Different technique. Interesting.
 
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