Xorg metaport extremely bloated with linux crap

RetroComputingCollector

RetroComputingCollector

The x11/xorg port is EXTREMELY bloated. It offers to install so much Linux-crap like Wayland and glibc. I can't belive the default port for X11 offers to install shitty GNU/Linsux bloat. This gives people an awful first impression of BSD in my opinion. I just installed xorg-server, xterm, xdm, twm, and xclock instead. Even xorg-minimal still installs GNU software. I think the handbook should provide that as an example of a really minimal Xorg installation, just so people can see what a fresh Xorg install should be.
 
RetroComputingCollector said:
It offers to install so much Linux-crap like Wayland and glibc
Click to expand...
Last time I had glibc consumers I wanted to run on FreeBSD I had to tune the system so much I gave it up and installed a linux distribution into a jail instead.
Which port forces you to install glibc, and how does it prepare the system for it to run ?

RetroComputingCollector said:
I can't belive the default port for X11 offers to install shitty GNU/Linsux bloat.
Click to expand...
This forums isn't reddit. If you don't like some software, then don't use it. pkg prompts you and you can always say no. Many users might consider the "shitty" "bloat" useful and enjoy it, including people maintaining the ports collection, hence it's being in the metaport.


RetroComputingCollector said:
This gives people an awful first impression of BSD in my opinion
Click to expand...
Most people getting a first impression of ->Free<-BSD come from Linux or Solaris, and rather then giving them a poor impression it gives them a simpler transition since this software is the one they have been using before and are familiar with, if they even bothered with the low level X11 stuff in the first place.

RetroComputingCollector said:
Even xorg-minimal still installs GNU software.
Click to expand...
And even if it doesn't install it, it will still make use of it because FreeBSD contains GNU software unless you modify the src config and rebuild the OS without the gnu components.

RetroComputingCollector said:
I think the handbook should provide that as an example of a really minimal Xorg installation, just so people can see what a fresh Xorg install should be.
Click to expand...
Read the ports section
 
I usually install xorg-server xf86-input-libinput xinit xauth (which I sometimes forget) xsetroot (for use with dwm's bar), alacritty, dwm, liberation-fonts-ttf, and openbox. Of course, they all pull in quite a few other things, but less than xorg or even xorg-minimal.
 
RetroComputingCollector said:
The x11/xorg port is EXTREMELY bloated. It offers to install so much Linux-crap like Wayland and glibc. I can't belive the default port for X11 offers to install shitty GNU/Linsux bloat. This gives people an awful first impression of BSD in my opinion. I just installed xorg-server, xterm, xdm, twm, and xclock instead. Even xorg-minimal still installs GNU software. I think the handbook should provide that as an example of a really minimal Xorg installation, just so people can see what a fresh Xorg install should be.
Click to expand...
xorg-server brings in Wayland so unless you disable it when compiling from ports your post makes very little sense.
 
fmc000 said:
this is not true..
Click to expand...
ports(7)
Code: 
build-depends-list, run-depends-list
                      Print a list of all the direct compile or run
                      dependencies for this port.

all-depends-list
                      Print a list of all recursive dependencies for this
                      port.
Code: 
$ cd /usr/ports/x11-servers/xorg-server/
$ make build-depends-list | grep wayland
$ make run-depends-list | grep wayland
$ make all-depends-list | grep wayland
/usr/ports/graphics/wayland-protocols
/usr/ports/graphics/wayland
Meson is dependent on via USES=meson in the Makefile,and ninja is dependent on via Mk/Uses/meson.mk.
 
Sigh.

User1: Why doesn't <insert random DE/WM> work out of the box? FreeBSD bad!
User2: Why doesn't <insert different random DE/WM> work out of the box? FreeBSD bad!
User3: Why doesn't <insert conflicting random DE/WM> work out of the box? FreeBSD bad!
User4: Why doesn't <insert completely different random application> work out of the box? FreeBSD bad!
{....}
User432634563: I don't like <insert pet peeve>. Why is it included by default? FreeBSD bad!

Here's a suggestion from someone who had to endure this kind of "discussion"/"critique" for almost 2 decades here. Take the packages at face value. The defaults are chosen to cater for most people and particularly focused on new, inexperienced users. They are chosen so most things can be installed side-by-side and it all plays nicely together as much as possible. This does not mean everything works, or it is what every user wants. There's simply no way to satisfy everybody. YOU might want a different configuration. YOU might want to enable or disable certain options. YOU can build everything from ports, with your settings. YOU can build your own repository and packages.
 
Maxnix said:
Seems that page lists build dependencies too, and recursively (meson and ninja as xorg-server direct dependencies?
Click to expand...
It seems that indirect dependencies are followed only once.

/usr/ports/Tools/scripts/portsearch xorg-server
Code: 
Port:   xorg-server-21.1.18_1,1
Path:   /usr/ports/x11-servers/xorg-server
Info:   X.Org X server and related programs
Maint:  x11@FreeBSD.org
Index:  x11-servers
B-deps: brotli-1.1.0,1 expat-2.7.1 freetype2-2.13.3 gettext-runtime-0.23.1
        hwdata-0.398,1 indexinfo-0.3.1_1 libX11-1.8.12,1 libXau-1.0.12
        libXdamage-1.1.6 libXdmcp-1.1.5 libXext-1.3.6,1 libXfixes-6.0.1
        libXfont2-2.0.6 libXrandr-1.5.4 libXrender-0.9.12 libXv-1.0.13,1
        libXxf86vm-1.1.6 libdrm-2.4.123,1 libedit-3.1.20250104,1 libepoll-
        shim-i386-0.0.20240608 libepoxy-1.5.10 libffi-3.5.1 libfontenc-1.1.8
        libglvnd-1.7.0 liblz4-1.10.0,1 libpciaccess-0.18.1_1 libudev-devd-
        0.6.0 libunwind-20240221_2 libxcb-1.17.0 libxcvt-0.1.3 libxkbfile-
        1.1.3 libxml2-2.14.5 libxshmfence-1.3.3 llvm11-11.0.1_10 llvm19-lite-
        19.1.7_1 lua54-5.4.8 mesa-dri-24.1.7_8 mesa-libs-24.1.7_1 meson-1.7.0
        mpdecimal-4.0.1 ninja-1.11.1,4 perl5-5.42.0_1 pixman-0.46.2 pkgconf-
        2.4.3,1 png-1.6.49 python311-3.11.13_1 readline-8.2.13_2 spirv-llvm-
        translator-llvm11-11.0.4 spirv-tools-2025.3.r1 wayland-1.24.0_2
        xorgproto-2024.1 xtrans-1.6.0_1 zstd-1.5.7
R-deps: brotli-1.1.0,1 expat-2.7.1 freetype2-2.13.3 gettext-runtime-0.23.1
        hwdata-0.398,1 indexinfo-0.3.1_1 libX11-1.8.12,1 libXau-1.0.12
        libXdamage-1.1.6 libXdmcp-1.1.5 libXext-1.3.6,1 libXfixes-6.0.1
        libXfont2-2.0.6 libXrandr-1.5.4 libXrender-0.9.12 libXv-1.0.13,1
        libXxf86vm-1.1.6 libdrm-2.4.123,1 libedit-3.1.20250104,1 libepoll-
        shim-i386-0.0.20240608 libepoxy-1.5.10 libffi-3.5.1 libfontenc-1.1.8
        libglvnd-1.7.0 liblz4-1.10.0,1 libpciaccess-0.18.1_1 libudev-devd-
        0.6.0 libunwind-20240221_2 libxcb-1.17.0 libxcvt-0.1.3 libxkbfile-
        1.1.3 libxml2-2.14.5 libxshmfence-1.3.3 llvm11-11.0.1_10 llvm19-lite-
        19.1.7_1 lua54-5.4.8 mesa-dri-24.1.7_8 mesa-libs-24.1.7_1 mpdecimal-
        4.0.1 perl5-5.42.0_1 pixman-0.46.2 png-1.6.49 python311-3.11.13_1
        readline-8.2.13_2 spirv-llvm-translator-llvm11-11.0.4 spirv-tools-
        2025.3.r1 wayland-1.24.0_2 xkbcomp-1.4.7 xkeyboard-config-2.41_4
        xorgproto-2024.1 zstd-1.5.7

Number of matching ports = 1
 
RetroComputingCollector said:
The x11/xorg port is EXTREMELY bloated. It offers to install so much Linux-crap like Wayland and glibc. I can't belive the default port for X11 offers to install shitty GNU/Linsux bloat. This gives people an awful first impression of BSD in my opinion. I just installed xorg-server, xterm, xdm, twm, and xclock instead. Even xorg-minimal still installs GNU software. I think the handbook should provide that as an example of a really minimal Xorg installation, just so people can see what a fresh Xorg install should be.
Click to expand...

Its simple - migrate to XLibre.
 
xibo said:
And even if it doesn't install it, it will still make use of it because FreeBSD contains GNU software unless you modify the src config and rebuild the OS without the gnu components.
Read the ports section
Click to expand...
There is so little GNU software in base that it is almost nonexistent. There is gcov and one or two other things.
 
Not having the knowledge to judge for myself, it seems to me that enough people with knowledge have criticized a lot about Xlibre, enough to keep me from installing it. At one point, one person suggested having it as an option in Fedora, (and he also seems knowledgeable), but a lot of other seemingly equally knowledgeable people were against it to the point where he dropped the suggestion. The trouble with being dumb like me is that I can only try to figure out who knows enough about it to listen to their views.
And, as X is working fine for me, as is Wayland, to be honest, for now, I'll stick with what I know works. There's also Wayback, from the Alpine linux folks though that's still in the testing phase.
 
RetroComputingCollector said:
I don't want to install SW that's outside the ports tree. (obvious reasons) Sure, dependency hell will not break base (yet, lets see how pkgbase goes) but it can break all of your other packages.
Click to expand...
Xorg silently killed by Red Hat and FreeDesktop.org is not a future solution.

FreeBSD - as a project - same as GhostBSD does - needs to migrate to X11 solution that has a future - that solution is XLibre at the moment.
 
vermaden said:
Xorg silently killed by Red Hat and FreeDesktop.org is not a future solution.

FreeBSD - as a project - same as GhostBSD does - needs to migrate to X11 solution that has a future - that solution is XLibre at the moment.
Click to expand...

How was it killed by Red Hat? I know the creator of Xlibre is A BIT paranoid, given his crap about vaccines. I just think it was killed because the Linux world is collectively idiotic, and yet they are at the helm of everything open-source. The death of Xorg reeks of Linux Being Linux.
 
This has been an occurrence. There's so much to say. That there's GPL in there, when it's not supposed to be. That anyone who wants to use it has to deal with removing that or getting their code mixed up and absorbed by GPL. That problem is kind of hidden, but everyone insists that GPL/GNU stay in it. It's also not properly disclosed, which is the bigger issue. People and organizations which use it, need to do due diligence, but there's a still a responsibility for stewards not to claim everything in it is permissive, when it's not. That's why it's time to fork X11, because they want to do it their way, and say, with a basic response that GPL/GNU is part of the ecosystem. I rather a nonviral license go in there like MPL 2.0, because that would protect code better and not absorb others code, but that would block GPL from using it. X11 is meant to be used by everything, including by GPL. Xenocara and NetBSD have basic installs which don't have GPL/GNU in it, but they're not by their own definition forks. Changing settings adds GPL/GNU to that.

We need flavors of X11, for not using Wayland. That's the quick and simple answer. It's important enough that desktop is big and lots of desktop users don't use Wayland. It would be an effort, but an effort worth it, and will make FreeBSD a contender on the desktop.
RetroComputingCollector said:
How was it killed by Red Hat?
Click to expand...
Redhat has a big influence in freeDesktop.org, where X11 now is. They promote Wayland.

BSD needs its own version of Free desktop. Or we will always have to play by Linux rules.

Xlibre can never be taken seriously by me, even if they managed to make the dream system. I'll never use it. DON'T use stupid mottos made by idiot demagogues. It says a lot to one's thinking ability. Xlibre can never lead the way for a long time. It shouldn't.
 
sidetone said:
This has been an occurrence. There's so much to say. That there's GPL in there, when it's not supposed to be. That anyone who wants to use it has to deal with removing that or getting their code mixed up and absorbed by GPL. That problem is kind of hidden, but everyone insists that GPL/GNU stay in it. It's also not properly disclosed, which is the bigger issue. People and organizations which use it, need to do due diligence, but there's a still a responsibility for stewards not to claim everything in it is permissive, when it's not. That's why it's time to fork X11, because they want to do it their way, and say, with a basic response that GPL/GNU is part of the ecosystem. I rather a nonviral license go in there like MPL 2.0, because that would protect code better and not absorb others code, but that would block GPL from using it. X11 is meant to be used by everything, including by GPL. Xenocara and NetBSD have basic installs which don't have GPL/GNU in it, but they're not by their own definition forks. Changing settings adds GPL/GNU to that.

We need flavors of X11, for not using Wayland. That's the quick and simple answer. It's important enough that desktop is big and lots of desktop users don't use Wayland. It would be an effort, but an effort worth it, and will make FreeBSD a contender on the desktop.

Redhat has a big influence in freeDesktop.org, where X11 now is. They promote Wayland.

BSD needs its own version of Free desktop. Or we will always have to play by Linux rules.

Xlibre can never be taken seriously by me, even if they managed to make the dream system. I'll never use it. DON'T use stupid mottos made by idiot demagogues. It says a lot to one's thinking ability. Xlibre can never lead the way for a long time. It shouldn't.
Click to expand...
I completely agree to all of this. Maybe someone could mention on the mailing lists of Free, Net, Open, and Dragonfly BSD, as well as writing a letter to their respective foundations, about starting a nonprofit BSD alliance! I agree. Following the Linux people might have worked in the beginning, but Linux has diverged way too much in goals, implementation and (for the worse) sanity that we should stop playing by their book. In fact, I think BSD could have more attention from companies (drivers) if all of the BSDs have a unified lobbist group! By the way, I agree in never using XLibre. It is just politics.
 
vermaden said:
Xorg silently killed by Red Hat and FreeDesktop.org is not a future solution.

FreeBSD - as a project - same as GhostBSD does - needs to migrate to X11 solution that has a future - that solution is XLibre at the moment.
Click to expand...
I didn't test XLibre in FreBSD yet, but I do have few Linux VM's with it and looks like it's getting better and better. OM Cooker ships with it, I replaced Xorg with XLibre on Gentoo, and just for fun installed it on Fedora 42 which comes only with Wayland. I think I'll wait a bit more, let's say for 25.0.0.11, and then I'll replace Xorg with XLibre on my FreeBSD's.
 
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