Keyboard Odyssey - The Impossible Search for Perfection

[Deleted member 43773]

but I cannot let this stand

Me neither.
I always tell myself:"Don't post! Don't post! ..." but ditto.

One main point was IBM's failing to make OS/2 more interesting to the non-business sector.

As I recall those times (late 1980s, early 90s) all computers were a complete package deal only:
hw, os, and apps.
Programs available for more than one platform=machine were available, but exceptions.
If you wanted/needed/must use a special software, you had to chose the according machine with its OS.
For most of the common non business users only affordable were the Homecomputers, which by and large were primarily game stations.
IBM, Apple, Commodore, and others thought they can hijack the market for themselves exclusively (IBM prof offices, Commodore home, and Apple music and graphics design, and milk their customers.
Insofar since IBM fired his little subcontractor named Microsoft, Bill Gates freed the computer world from the dependency of a handful greedy companies.
The development afterwards, now facing the dependency of one big greedy company called Microsoft, producing not real high quality sw and milking its customers, is another story, and shall not be told here.

But face it:
Without the independency from IBM there were no PCs like we're used to today.
And not for that prices either.
A halfway serious useful pro-machine for <2k€ in that time? unthinkable. >3...4k!
And I bet even no FreeBSD, or other open source OS would still exist today.
At least not as mature as today.

 

[Crivens]

You've got a carpal tunnel. You drag your tendons over it when you deviate your wrist. If it hurts you sooner than somebody else, that's just your tolerance or body reaction, but you're still doing the not-ergonomic thing.

That is not the point. The point is that we all have different dimensions, length and whatnot in hands, arms, neckbones.
We can not all find the same dimensions in keyboards ergonomic, we would need to bend in uncomfortable ways. You can't say "this position is good for everybody", even that is not possible. You may say that some ideas there are universal (well, almost) but you can't have a one-size-fits-all nor a one-way-fits-all. That's what I meant.

 

[msplsh]

You can't say "this position is good for everybody", even that is not possible

That's literally what non-ergo, rectangular keyboards are "saying" by being so bog standard and having no adjustments.

 

[Jose]

As I recall those times (late 1980s, early 90s) all computers were a complete package deal only:
hw, os, and apps.

Nah, I was assembling PCs from spare parts back in those days. It was DOS at the beginning of that time range, and then Windows 3.1 and Windows 3.11. The OS was so easy to pirate and so widely pirated, that it was essentially free. I didn't realize at the time that was likely intentional by MS. Once they became dominant, they could charge whatever they wanted. And even now, I betcha they mostly go after businesses with money. They want you to use their OS when you're a hobbyist so there's a ready pool of entry-level technicians with experience on their crapware.

But yeah, we probably need a new thread for this.

 

[Deleted member 43773]

It was DOS at the beginning of that time range

You are right.
I was a bit simplifying.

we probably need a new thread for this.

Well, I agree with "not here".

But if need to really discuss this?
We could open an off-topic thread: "Remember the [good?] old days - computers in 1970...1995";
something like this.
But I think it will not bring much benefit but indulge in nostalgia
(which many here - including me - share) -
and figure out old we really are

 

[astyle]

This thread inspired me to google audio feedback for computer keyboard - and it returned hits for Macs and Windows... There's quite a few ppl that are nostalgic for the typewriter noise.

Basically, what I'm seeing are keyloggers that use a .mp3 file as a return value for keypresses. (feeling paranoid yet?)

Sound feedback when you type on keyboard (Windows, like KeyClick)

I'm searching for an application like "KeyClick". That one is for OS X, I need one for Microsoft Windows.

superuser.com

 

[blackbird9]

I'm using these (keyboard and numpad, both in white):

https://fr.aliexpress.com/item/1005002824406624.html?algo_exp_id=e5d7a8bc-b085-44fa-968c-45078865b91f-0

Nice feeling (except the space bar, very noisy and not very firm).

Until I get this one:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWLptl0cKSc

fascinating video!

 

[getopt]

audio feedback for computer keyboard - and it returned hits for Macs

I remember when some folks in the desktop-publishing-era discovered the beauty look of mechanical typewriter letters and made fonts lookalike. Then others came up demandig "we need the original sound" for the font when typing on the computer keyboard. I'm almost sure that this kind of lifestyle also made it into the MS-world. For some reasons the sound didn't made it to the ears of the readers when reading text written with the sound of typewriters.

 

[ralphbsz]

You've got a carpal tunnel. You drag your tendons over it when you deviate your wrist. If it hurts you sooner than somebody else, that's just your tolerance or body reaction, but you're still doing the not-ergonomic thing.

Yes. We all have carpal tunnels. But even there it turns out humans are built different. I know a person who has the nerve bundle that goes through the tunnel in the wrist on the wrong side of the tendon, she was born with them crossed over. She had terrible and disabling wrist pain. After a series of surgeries attempting to cure this, she is now paralyzed in one hand: the surgeons and her decided that saving the nerve bundle (and preserve sensation) is more important than having the ability to move her hand, so they intentionally severed the tendons. And these were not bad surgeons, they are the best in the field of hand surgery (the group that invented microsurgery), and the patient herself is a medical doctor, so this is not an accident or incompetence. This is an extreme case, where the topology of the human body is different.

But even with "normal" people, the ability to perform tasks is wildly different. Accomplished pianists spend many hours a day on the piano, a task which is much harder on the wrist than typing on a keyboard. One of my sister's violin mentors (Tibor Varga) was once asked how much he practices per day, and his answer was: "I never practice. But I have a violin under my chin for about 8 hours a day, playing it". And the motion required for a violinists left hand (the fingerboard) is anatomically perverse and very stressful. Many people can handle it very well, for long stretches. Others can not; I know a cello player (much more relaxed hand position) who had to give up playing because of wrist problems.

For something relatively easy, like the computer keyboard, the answer for "what is ergonomic" depends massively on the individual, their habits, their body shape and size, and equipment (such as desk, keyboard drawer if they want, and the keyboard itself). For some people, the so-called "ergonomic" keyboards are great. For some they are an absolute lifesaver; I have colleagues who can only function with specialized keyboards: one uses a split dvorak chord keyboard, with about 30 keys total. Others (like me) are perfectly happy to use standard keyboards, and for me the more buttons the better, as I can assign frequently used sequences (like "compile-link-go") to a function key. For me a split keyboard or having to use chords (like alt-meta-cokebottle-...) just slows me down and causes frustration. For example, in emacs I'd rather use Escape-X than meta-X, if I have a good and reachable escape key.

A similar debate exists about the use of CLI and keyboards versus GUIs. For me, the moment my hand has to leave the keyboard to go to a mouse, my productivity plummets, because I can type much faster than most; therefore I greatly prefer CLI work. That's also why I like laptops with very good trackpads (which I use with my thumbs, without moving the fingers from the keyboard); in earlier days, I used to like the pointing stick (of the ThinkPad keyboards), although it is somewhat slower. If I have to do serious mousing (for example in spreadsheets), I keep my left hand on the keyboard, and mouse with the right using an external mouse. Others would probably hate that; good for them.

 

[msplsh]

For some ... "ergonomic" keyboards are great. ... Others ... use standard keyboards,

That's like the whole point. The keyboard fetishists only focus on standard keyboards. Not inclusive. That's it. That's the complaint.

 

[Hobbes]

This thread inspired me to google audio feedback for computer keyboard - and it returned hits for Macs and Windows... There's quite a few ppl that are nostalgic for the typewriter noise.

Basically, what I'm seeing are keyloggers that use a .mp3 file as a return value for keypresses. (feeling paranoid yet?)

Sound feedback when you type on keyboard (Windows, like KeyClick)

I'm searching for an application like "KeyClick". That one is for OS X, I need one for Microsoft Windows.

superuser.com

There are better options (but require some special drivers... and skills ).

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XLZ4Z8LpEE


Sorry to be repetitive. Last one.. I promise.

 

[Deleted member 43773]

The keyboard fetishists only focus on standard keyboards.

That's right.
But looking for a good kb per se does not neccessarily means fetishism.

To put it in a silly allegory:
If someone is unsatisfied by having only fastfood,
it's not food fetishism to look for other ways to eat.
Fetishism would be if he eats in noble restaurants, only looking at the prices,
snooty whisking off the service,
always complaining how bad the food were.
(best: but be unable to distinguish red wine from white wine. )
There are such people.
But not everybody eating at a noble restaurant is a food fetishist.
And according to keyboards I haven't seen any so far in this thread.

However:
You're also right about ergonomics:
In most countries they are standardized, and part of labour laws, (in some countries differ in some details)
so definitions are crystal, and can be looked up.
(I myself once made a certification in working ergonomics.)

But at the same time some may allow themselves to expand ("abuse") the word for also personal conceptions.
A - very - silly example could be of a smoker having an astray on his desk.
This for sure has nothing to do with ergonimcs. But maybe he personally would call it that way.
Or take me:
I'm almost 2m tall.
I simply cannot get an ergonomic work place by standard norm desks and chairs alone,
because standardization only respects people from 1,72 to 1,86 (don't nail me on that.)
While sitting at a desk I cannot have a 90° angle at knees and a 90° angle at the elbows at the same time.
I have to chose one.
Or I have to look for alternatives - other, additional ideas to improve my ergonomics,
e.g. "Get a standing desk!" - "Good idea, thanks." (Of course I know there are standing desks, this also was just an example.)

Telling me, there is nothing to discuss about, because it's clearly defined, standardized, and part of labour laws, is absolutely right,
but does not help me.

And I don't see any fetishism about it.

Thanks to you I'm thinking about to really get me one of those splitted ergonomics kb...
This really could improve my work place.
So thank you for your productive input.
I really mean it!

Last one.. I promise.

I personally don't see nostalgia only in it.

Bury existing ideas, and focus on to only produce new ones is for sales.
To have real progress, every new idea has be measured at existing ones.
So we better don't forget what already was achieved.

To call that "old farts only want to hold on to old things and prevent progress" is just misunderstood sales talk,
to avoid measuring consumer junk with genuine stuff.

But I agree, to have real progress one also has not to drown in nostalgia

 

[D-FENS]

For the last 5 years I have been using Corsair Gaming K70 LUX RGB which is almost the perfect keyboard: mecahnical durable keys, nice touch, RGB lighting you can turn off and customize, multimedia keys, keys can be pulled out and rearranged however you want.
No extra G-keys though

The only nasty bug I found was that the plastic pads at the bottom leave nasty markings on my working table, so I wrapped them in sticky tape to prevent this. Besides that, no complaints whatsoever! Very recommendable.
You can buy it in white or black to match your other PC furniture.

Oh yeah, another thing - it's expensive. But what do you want, c'mon!?

 

[Crivens]

To call that "old farts only want to hold on to old things and prevent progress" is just misunderstood sales talk,
to avoid measuring consumer junk with genuine stuff.

There are two kinds of idiots: those who say "this is old and therefore good" and those who say "this is new and therefore better".
And sales people always hate stuff that was build before the planned obsolesence was a thing. I'm currently looking for a personal car, just for me, build before this was a thing. Some old MB190D would be fine, as long as it can run on salad oil. Those old things could, and the only way of destroying one is by force.

 

[astyle]

To me, keyboard fetishism means actually deriving pleasure from having a very specific keyboard, having no problem blowing a lot of money on it, and then blowing smoke in other people's faces about how everyone else's keyboard is inferior because they lack a specific, and expensive feature.

To me, it boils down to this: Just because the keyboard looks good in an ad, that doesn't make it a worthwhile splurge. Go have your vanity stoked, I'm not gonna care either way.

If you like your keyboard, and it works, great! If you wanna go down the rabbit hole of exploring and understanding technical features, and making it work under FreeBSD, that's what these very Forums are for in the first place.

 

[getopt]

Just for reference: To make a keyboard dedicated thread here was endorsed by Crivens

Introduce yourself, tell us who you are and why you chose FreeBSD

pc-xt keyboard, like this Yeah. A friend of mine had the IBM Portable PC - the keyboard really was magnificent! Cherry G80-3000 is worth a look. Gold crosspoint MX switches. [..] The feel is good, but overall build quality nowhere near as good as IBM. I have the G80 lying on my cupboard. Put...

forums.freebsd.org

 

[codingcowboy]

I have the Kinesis Advantage 360 Pro it's bluetooth/USB which I use it via USB since it does not show up when using bluetooth-config script to scan. I have tried many things to connect with and without the bluetooth-config script but nothing worked so I just use it via USB. I do own a Unicomp Sun Unix SpaceSaver USB Keyboard and a couple Sun Type 6 USB keyboards but I don't use these daily. I use Programming Dvorak (dvp) layout. I just switch to this layout a while back and doubt I will ever go back to qwerty. As far as cleaning goes the best way is to take them apart and apply a bit of elbow grease. I've been typing for 30+ years and I'm going to tell you that a good comfortable keyboard is a must. I used to own a Microsoft Ergo keyboard and used it for like10 years until the bumps on the home row was worn off and the keys were failing. Then I used the Sun Type 6's for a while but just couldn't get used to it and noticed some pains started bugging me so that's why I got the Kinesis this year. IMHO keyboards are personal choices like shoes and I suggest you try several before picking just one. Here is a good source for all things keyboard http://xahlee.info/kbd/keyboarding.html Xah Lee has lots of info but he can be very opinionated and a bit crass at times.

 

[hardworkingnewbie]

Well he has a simple opinion about "Das Keyboard": seems valid enough to me.

Never buy Das​

The counterpart to gaming community is Das in programing community, marketing to ignorant programers, whereas cheaper and better keyboards are widely available in gaming community.

the thing is, you'll get gamer or coder eedeots huffy and puffy refusing to accept that they've been swindled.

 

[Remington]

I use Microsoft Sidewinder X4 keyboard. I've tried many different, even expensive, keyboards and kept coming back to this. I even use it for my hackintosh and I'm software engineer. Very sturdy and works since 2010.