Keyboard Odyssey - The Impossible Search for Perfection

  • Thread starter Deleted member 43773
  • Start date
Speaking of cleaning: I can highly recommend the Dyson hand-held rechargeable vacuum cleaners like this old DC34. This one has a HEPA filter so when you use it it doesn't squirt the dust all over the room. Also works very well on thinkpad keyboards, good suction power.



dyson-dc34.jpg


One nice thing about the IBM model M was you could take all the keycaps off and drop them into a bowl of warm water and washing up liquid and let them soak for a couple of hours, then after rinsing they would come out looking like new. Unfortunately most other keyboards don't allow you to do that!
 
I hate all this keyboard fetishism mostly because IMO they don't care one iota about ergonomics. Always colors, keycaps and how clicky/noisy they are. I use an adjustable split and tented keyboard and I guess I'm just jealous that people pour all their energy into seemingly useless crap.
Ergonomics is different for anyone. Personally, I hate split keyboards. And if I have to use them, two things happen: First, I slow way down. Second, after an hour my arms hurt.

Why do I slow way down? I am a very fast typist, but I have one bad habit: I move my hands across left and right, depending on what needs to be typed. The extreme example is: when typing things that are a mix with an unusual large number of digits, I'll keep my right hand on the numeric pad, and type all text with my left hand. But even in normal use, my hands cross over in the middle, regularly.

Other people say that this slows you down. They may be right FOR THEMSELVES. It doesn't slow me down. On the contrary, having to not move my hands back and forth slows me down. Another extreme example is: For about 3 months, I could not use my right hand, and for about 2 years I couldn't use my right index finger. I can type with just my left hand quite fast, definitely faster than most computer users.

I also get no wrist pain or arm pain at all from typing, and I sometimes am at a computer for 12 or 14 hours per day.

How can that all be? Since I was 5 years old, I've been playing the piano extensively. When I was a teenager (before computers existed in households), I often practiced piano for 3-4 hours per day. Not only can I type with just my left hand, I can also play Ravel's left hand piano concerto. And when using both hands, much of the romantic repertoire. So a little bit of pressing buttons on a relatively small thing (about 50cm wide) is much less exercise for my arms and hands than 88 keys spread over a meter and a half.

What I do like is really good, accurate keyboards. At home, I have a Bechstein grand. At places where I occasionally perform (I still play in various orchestras and wind ensembles, although more commonly percussion and timpani instead of keyboard), I usually find a Steinway or Yamaha, and occasionally I get to enjoy a Boesendorfer. Strangely, I can tolerate (although not enjoy) various electronic keyboards, and I'm quite fond of the Nord Stage Piano (saving up to buy one for myself) and the high-end Yamaha electronic keyboards. Cheap electronic keyboards really annoy me, and when faced with them, I try to trade with someone (I'll take the xylophone part, if you take the keyboard).

For computers, I really like the IBM model M (I've used it since the mid 1980s, and I was an IBM employee for nearly 20 years). Today, I have one model M in my office, and several at home (they are today Unicomp branded and USB connected, with a Macintosh key layout). Strangely, I can tolerate the current (2022 generation scissor-based) Mac keyboard. I actually liked the pre-butterfly Macbook keyboard: while it was a little spongy, without a crisp feedback point, it was very accurate and well built. The old-style (T20 through T60 era) IBM/Lenovo Thinkpad keyboards were also very good, and I'm very fond of the 7-row layout on the T2x models (I used one for nearly a decade, even after my colleagues had switched to T4x and T6x).

There is in my (not at all humble) opinion only one keyboard that is better than the model M, and it is the original buckling spring used in the 5150, 3278 and PC model F. Before PCs existed, I used to use an IBM 3290 terminal (with a plasma screen! no flicker!), which had a gigantic keyboard with over 120 keys, both PF keys (I think at the top) and F keys (at the left, or the other way around). Today you can actually buy a reproduction model F keyboard with original-style buckling spring keys, and even with the solenoid that the old IBM 5150 used to have. I don't own one (yet?), but I've tested a colleagues, and they are indeed fabulous. They are to keyboards what a Boesendorfer is to pianos.

So now you ask, why a solenoid? It turns out that many typists learned how to type on either electric typewriters (the ubiquitous Selectric), or on keypunches (the even more ubiquitous 029). Both have in common that there is a lot of mechanical and sound feedback to the user: When you successfully type a key, you KNOW it, because the whole mechanism shakes, and you hear a loud noise. When switching to electronic keyboards, many typists slowed down, because they didn't get that feedback to know that you've actually hit the key. So IBM added a solenoid (electric magnet) to the keyboard, which literally slams a metal bolt into the side of the keyboard case, making a loud clanging sound, and shaking it. And yes, you can still buy these solenoid mechanisms to add to keyboards, and the reproduction model F can be ordered with it (if you have a few hundred $ sitting around).
 
Agree with ralphbsz, I'm also a fast touch typist (taught myself decades ago) and speed and accuracy are really the things that distinguish a good keyboard. You can tell a good keyboard by the number of mis-keys you make, a good keyboard makes very few and can keep up with my fingers.

I prefer the standard AT layout, I can't stand the split microsoft ergo-keyboard design. I find the model M a bit heavy for my fingers, I get tired fingers after a while using those, so I actually prefer the cherry branded MX switch keyboards, at least at present. The PC-XT model F was also a nice keyboard but I can't afford the price of the replica. I've tried working with the fashionable "space saver" layout jobs, I had a fancy Dell one for a while at work, but can't stand them compared to the AT layout, I ended up taking my own keyboard in. I can't bear anything with a backlight or colours etc, I don't want the thing impinging on my visual field. I do remember those old 3270 keyboards that looked like something from houston mission control, with the top two rows of PF keys and the huge red plasma display too, I always wanted one of those plasma displays hahaha. I had a tosh 3200 laptop back in pc-dos days that had a (much smaller) red plasma display like that. The 3290 panels must have cost a fortune to make, but those were the days of high(er) quality hardware. Even IBM branded keyboards are OEM membrane nowadays.

Another very nice keyboard I had many years ago was a fujitsu PC (model F pattern) keyboard with alps keyswitches, I don't think those are available now, of course that had the old 5-pin DIN connector. And there used to be some nice clone keyboards from taiwan back in the late 80s when they were making serious efforts to keep up with the quality of the ibm kit, I had a nice heavy Chicony one for a while, I remember it had a large steel plate inside it to give it some weight, and it used clicky key switches, it wasn't membrane. Someone I worked with had a Das when they first came out (with unmarked keycaps hahaha), I think it had cherry mx blue switches, I gave it a try, it was ok, but I preferred my cherry G80-3000 which was also lot cheaper than the Das.
 
1681983599867.png
1681983642366.png
1681983694454.png


This is a 3290 mainframe terminal, just for interest. This is what ralph is talking about. The whole thing was fantastic build quality. I remember seeing those around late 80s to early 90s. You can see the ancestry of the ibm pc keyboard layouts here. I don't think IBM makes anything like that nowadays, sadly. Those were the days of high reliability, human factors engineering and function over form; long before ultrabooks, 5mm deep apple keyboards, horrible squashed up laptop keyboards mated with a massive touchpad taking half the surface real-estate, etc.

Even these photos don't really convey the size of this thing. You have to see someone sitting in front of it to get the full effect! Needless to say the keyboard itself was top-notch. Nice to see the understated ibm badges too; they knew they made the best kit and didn't need to emblazon it with logos.
 
Hobbes
thank you so much for linking to the YT-video about the IBM 029 keypunch mechanical keyboard. I started on this punching my first Fortran programs. At that time I had no chance looking at the interior mechanics. I really enjoyed watching this in a sentimental mood.

Decades later I still have my IBM model M keyboards in use, having washed them like blackbird9 mentioned.

How many cheap quality keyboards I have saved in my life that would have added to the hill of consumers' electronics waste?
 
Ergonomics are methods of human factors engineering. So what does change?
The methods or the data?
What changes is the marketing... sadly. And I guess the manufacturing process technology. Once membrane designs were perfected to the point where a keyboard could be made for a couple of dollars (perhaps even less in quantity), it became very hard to sell better quality kit to the mass market. There is always a market segment that is prepared to pay more for higher reliability and build quality, but the mass market goes over to the lower cost item. Why pay more for something that is engineered to last for 20 years life, when you can get something for 1/20 of the price and replace it after a couple of years. In marketing terms, there has been a 180 degree change of direction from function-over-form to form-over-function, perhaps led by apple but closely followed by the rest of the industry. I never really understood the obsession with thinness, but it certainly seems to sell well.
 
Hobbes
thank you so much for linking to the YT-video about the IBM 029 keypunch mechanical keyboard. I started on this punching my first Fortran programs. At that time I had no chance looking at the interior mechanics. I really enjoyed watching this in a sentimental mood.

Decades later I still have my IBM model M keyboards in use, having washed them like blackbird9 mentioned.

How many cheap quality keyboards I have saved in my life that would have added to the hill of consumers' electronics waste?
You're welcome, nice to meet someone who used those kind of amazing machines.
The channel is a gem for nostalgic or technology lovers.
 
the only criterion for most of today's consumers:
It looks cool.
How do consumers adapt what is cool in their cultural environment?
They got hammered by ads til they cannot make a difference of what is their own needs and what they are told to buy.
No need to explain why swaggering is also an important need for the mostly stupid.
 
Thank you very much for your detailed review.
I never had one of those myself, but stumbled over them several times.
Quite pricy, thought they were high quality brand
Well they are considered by many as a high quality brand, true. But nowadays pricey isn't always equal with good build quality. For me the best source of feedback nowadays are reviews on Amazon, three stars and less give quite a good picture normally what's wrong with a product.
 
That's the point and the purpose of the ads... and they are successful.
Unfortunately. The advertising industry is successful because they know that psychological conditioning methods work, while the consumer mostly does not know how he/she gets manipulated and still feels good.
 
the mostly stupid.
Summerized to the point. 😂
Or can you otherwise explain why MS Windows became the most used "OS"? 😁
But this is off-topic, and by principal we agree.
source of feedback nowadays are reviews on Amazon
I agree and want to add to be careful with that:
It's not objective.
Bad reviews are not always published.
They want to sell.
Something got >30 1..2 star reviews - and there are quite some products today actually earn that - will not be sold.

That's also why this thread:
to have an additional source of not skewed reviews and opinions,
by people having similar needs on that topic.

I actually enjoy reading what you all post.
I learn a lot, and hope others too.
 
not know how he/she gets manipulated
It's worse.
Many simply don't care anymore.
If I read something about Windows 10 will have more ads in start menu,
I don't understand why people stay there.
I relinquished my smartphone a couple of years ago, because I do NOT accept the license terms.
 
I'm not a huge fan of mechanical keyboards but for me a 65% keyboard is a must and I never found a decent non mechanical 65% keyboard.
 
Or can you otherwise explain why MS Windows became the most used "OS"? 😁
But this is off-topic, and by principal we agree.
Yeah, this is off-topic in this thread, but I cannot let this stand because in this case it is not consumers' stupidity that made MS successful (at that time).
One main point was IBM's failing to make OS/2 more interesting to the non-business sector.
Then there were legal battles and MS became almost a monopolist. You cannot blame a man for stupidity if he has little choices.
 
So we all have the same body and kinetics? I don't think so.
You've got a carpal tunnel. You drag your tendons over it when you deviate your wrist. If it hurts you sooner than somebody else, that's just your tolerance or body reaction, but you're still doing the not-ergonomic thing.
 
Back
Top