Quill?... even if I have to use goose feathers...
Quill?... even if I have to use goose feathers...
My apologies, I was trying to make a joke, a deviation from "goose feathers". Lesson learned, silent = smart (works both ways)My goal when i said i do not post here is that the qwerty in a phone is small. I am sorry
NBD, bud. We all use whatever's comfortable to post, and we try to make the Forums a welcoming place to do that.My goal when i said i do not post here is that the qwerty in a phone is small. I am sorry
Is it important? …
❝… focus will be to improve the desktop/user experience to make it easier to start using FreeBSD, …. More specifically, …❞
… no one will agree on one desktop …
… FreeBSD 14.x-DESKTOP or something. …
main
), STABLE, alpha, beta, and release candidates), then:… Make it happen.
…
My solution for all of you who want that is:
- Make a forum post to discuss how it should look.
- Start to work on it.
- When a final product is done, introduce it to the community.
…
It is human nature to like what others like.
Behaviour is learned.
It won't help if the goal doesn't make much sense. Talk was about a "desktop edition" of FreeBSD. Reasons why this idea doesn't make sense were given. I'll just repeat the (IMHO) most important ones:Agreed. This is the only reasonable solution.My solution for all of you who want that is:
This is how it should be.
- Make a forum post to discuss how it should look.
- Start to work on it.
- When a final product is done, introduce it to the community.
For two desktop environments: things are simplified, but not automatically installed.
Re: <https://www.freebsd.org/where/#choose-image>, FreeBSD-provided ⋯dvd1⋯ files include packages for x11/gnome and x11/kde5. Context:
freebsd-src/release/scripts/pkg-stage.sh at main · freebsd/freebsd-src
The FreeBSD src tree publish-only repository. Experimenting with 'simple' pull requests.... - freebsd/freebsd-srcgithub.com
It won't help if the goal doesn't make much sense. Talk was about a "desktop edition" of FreeBSD. Reasons why this idea doesn't make sense were given. I'll just repeat the (IMHO) most important ones:
Of course, the issue mentioned here a few times that "nobody would agree upon which software and DE to use for that" is valid as well, it's not on my list because it can be "solved" by offering many choices here. This will greatly increase complexity and maintenance workload, but at least it's not a technical showstopper.
- FreeBSD is a general-purpose OS, it doesn't have "editions" (and, shouldn't have them). The base system offers everything technically needed to use FreeBSD for any purpose (server, embedded, desktop, ...?), and no, this doesn't (have to) include userspace GUI software like a windowing system, "desktop environments", etc, as all these can easily be installed from ports, there's zero technical reason to pull them into base, but many technical reasons not to do that (lots of complexity and churn, just bloat for anyone using FreeBSD for something other than desktop, ...)
- The "leave it as is and just automate installing a desktop in some graphical installer" approach makes no sense either, it would introduce a dependency from base to ports. Base uses a classical release schema with "long-term support" stable branches and point releases created from them for a whole of 5 years for each stable branch. Ports are "rolling release" and just offer quarterly snapshots. This is in line with the idea of base being the platform for 3rd-party software from ports. A dependency in the opposite direction would break the whole concept.
- So, the next idea would be, just do it entirely in ports and offer an automated desktop installation there. Surprise, this already exists: sysutils/desktop-installer. Sure, if you want more "bells and whistles" there, get wild, why not make this a "graphical installer" with some wizard-style UI, why not add some option to the base installer offering to directly install and execute the latest version, whatever you like, but this certainly won't be a "desktop edition". It still might be something some people would like.
- There's of course nothing wrong with doing whatever you like outside the FreeBSD project, like GhostBSD is doing. It must be outside because it will need its own "release engineering", and the result will be suitable only for desktops. Still, these projects are certainly useful to some users.
Written from a desktop running "vanilla" FreeBSD for 7 years now...
Well, there are frustrations with how Windows functions. Some technical, some political, some arise out of lack of useful info (real or perceived). Using something other than Windows is seen as a remedy for those frustrations.Is human nature to do as other do, i.e. use Windows.
The point is not in how Windows works. The code is secret. No person can see it. The political factor is more a who can you buy factor. Is, by the way, Windows politically correct?Well, there are frustrations with how Windows functions. Some technical, some political, some arise out of lack of useful info (real or perceived). Using something other than Windows is seen as a remedy for those frustrations.
There's plenty of workplaces that use Apple hardware. In the workplace, you just use whatever's provided, and you're expected to be productive with that. Liking or not liking a particular OS is irrelevant.The point is not in how Windows works. The code is secret. No person can see it. The political factor is more a who can you buy factor. Is, by the way, Windows politically correct?
smithi I can't recall the details, my strongest advice going forward is to not go behind the scenes with email. It runs contrary to having things trackable, and so on.
Do please make best use of Bugzilla.
My lasting impression of Glen, not only from the months during which he was my primary mentor, is that he is impeccably professional. In all things FreeBSD: never (to my nose) the faintest whiff of allowing personal feelings to interfere with technical decision-making and prioritisation.
Is this a complaint? No, it's a description of a breakdown in communication and/or a lack of knowing who's responsible for maintaining that list in /src/release/scripts/pkg-stage.sh
There's some discussion of images in Discord.
HTH
Graham Perrin (@grahamperrin@bsd.cafe)
Reports in Bugzilla for FreeBSD, 5th December 2023 (by status): — 5,293 new (up by 85, compared to 5th November) — 5,441 open (down 56) — 650 in progress (up 2). Respectively...mastodon.bsd.cafe
Are we clear that I haven't blamed Glen, nor re@, nor dteske@ for any of this?
Yes. Apple is not gone. But apple is not like it was in the 80s. Why their ads are mostly white ads. Same in the Windows ads. But that was the 80s. Good story. In an Apple workplace that user can be fired.
There's plenty of workplaces that use Apple hardware. In the workplace, you just use whatever's provided, and you're expected to be productive with that. Liking or not liking a particular OS is irrelevant.
Any workplace, frankly... you did miss my point pretty completely here, Rock ...Yes. Apple is not gone. But apple is not like it was in the 80s. Why their ads are mostly white ads. Same in the Windows ads. But that was the 80s. Good story. In an Apple workplace that user can be fired.
Agree. Whenever I have to work on Windows as part of my job, I think: “How easy it can be to do this on Linux!”. When I work on Linux, I think 'how easy is it to do this on FreeBSD!!". When I work on FreeBSD, I sometimes think: “why is there no problem with this in Linux?”. It all depends on the goal. If the goal is “to work on FreeBSD every day”, that’s one thing. When the goal is “to get the job (for which you are paid) done efficiently and on time,” this is completely different.Just pick the tool that gets the job done in a reasonable amount of time, and don't get stubborn about it.
Oh not that old lie.Users, in case they only had a CL, would be lost. I mean, using a keyboard to create a DVD or to see a thing likeon the upper left of the screen, is their worst nightmare. Thank Jobs for the graphical interface.Code:#
But that Jobs created the graphical interface? Nope. Far from it.