I genuinely think freebsd would be more popular with a purely bsd eye-candy desktop environment

alfonsosiciliano said:
Actually I'm thinking of a simple script, it doesn't deserve a port. The old version exists on some repository but depends on not-permissive deps and is quite obsolete.
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Nope, this script has already failed if you have to pick a GPU, turn on the audio, enable a touchpad... The PCI IDs are right there.
 
malavon said:
Am I the only one thinking of creating a spoof project called SithBSD now?
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There's lots of people who want to 'Roll their own' project with FreeBSD-compatible components. There's nothing wrong with somebody doing it as a personal project and sharing copies of it with anyone who's interested.

But asking an established project to change their defaults - that's a totally different scale, very different from asking your family to change an annoying habit. The way I see it, it's like asking your parents for permission to paint the walls pink, while they're trying to update the plumbing in the basement, and know that the water heater, which needs to be replaced, will set them back a pretty penny.

FWIW, Microsoft and Apple are exactly the same as FreeBSD in that regard - just try asking THEM to change their defaults. They're also gonna tell you that if you have the tech savvy, you can install your own stuff and get it themed to your own liking, but no, they're not gonna change their defaults just because somebody made some noise about not liking how the paint on the bedroom wall looks.
 
msplsh said:
Absolutely not true. Look how Apple changed the Mac Safari 15 tabs after their redesign created a giant ?storm.
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Apple does have a large userbase, and enough users complained instead of switching to something else. Besides, Apple does have a financial incentive to do that. FreeBSD Foundation is an NPO.
--
[sarcasm] Apple's default color scheme is this ugly stainless steel look with rounded corners on buttons! I want the default to be magenta, looking edgier, or else I'm not gonna buy Apple stuff any more! [/sarcasm]
 
Ok, those are great reasons why what you said isn't true, but what you said still isn't true. It also points out another thing that is not true: FreeBSD is not exactly the same as Apple in this regard.
 
jammied said:
… fancy desktop environment is the same time we start attracting people who undermine the very things that are unique benefits of BSD, i.e. stability and security. …
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Historically, Apple did not suffer from the combination of stability + a superb desktop environment.
 
grahamperrin said:
Historically, Apple did not suffer from the combination of stability + a superb desktop environment.
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The two major vendors for these things seems to "stabilize" around the same time with protected memory so I don't know what you're saying here.

Either way, I think gatekeeping FreeBSD to only people who can setup a WM in X or Wayland from a command line is not a good plan.
 
Or just do it automatically and only send them to the handbook when it doesn't work. If an automatic system worked most of the time, it could probably produce WAY more helpful information when something goes wrong.
 
msplsh said:
Or just do it automatically and only send them to the handbook when it doesn't work. If an automatic system worked most of the time, it could probably produce WAY more helpful information when something goes wrong.
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FWIW, I'm trying to automate KDE upgrades via Poudriere, I've been at it since June of '21, and still not done (but getting there, this thread is where I'm discussing the latest stumbling block). All the components are actually described in the Handbook and the Porter's Handbook, but you still gotta put it all together, and connect the dots. Just providing an example of what it would take to actually automate the process and maintain that automation. I'm having fun with a personal project, which I took on because FreeBSD has a well-organized framework, and usable manuals, to boot. If it were Linux, I'd be giving up pretty quickly. ?
 
drhowarddrfine said:
It's not gatekeeping. FreeBSD is not in the desktop business. FreeBSD makes hammers and nails. FreeBSD does not make houses. It's up to you to use the tools. If you want a house built automatically, go somewhere else. That's what Windows is for.
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Comments like that make you the gatekeeper. I'd try something different, like, "We can help, just ask!"
 
msplsh said:
Either way, I think gatekeeping FreeBSD to only people who can setup a WM in X or Wayland from a command line is not a good plan.
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I'm not sure I agree. For people to get the most out of FreeBSD, they can't skip some of these details. I don't think we are helping them by just shoving them onto an easy environment (which isn't really FreeBSD; they might as well be using Linux or even Cygwin/WSL).

Just like 3D graphics programming; sure you can use a bunch of easy libraries to make some images appear; but without understanding at least a few of the fundamentals of vectors / matrices, you aren't going to be able to get the most out of it or progress.

Someone who can't get a couple of commands working to get a WM running means that they might also start opening up their system to security risks without realizing either because they have no clue whats going on; they don't know what they are typing / copying and pasting.
 
drhowarddrfine said:
kpedersen I always roll my eyes at the Microsoft Surface commercials that always show how easy it is to create beautiful graphics and images all because of the Surface as if there is no effort or knowledge required on the part of the user.
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Indeed. Some of these commercials really are quite funny. I came across one similar to this the other day and was thinking to myself; what serious work is this guy ever going do with no keyboard and only consumer drawing apps from the Windows Store with his little stylus XD.

RE4xd8v


It may looks "fancy" but it is defective, all the way to the landfill.

The next one is this (He has a keyboard this time!) but it makes me laugh to imagine the fussy little stand at the back slipping down his knees and him having to grab the useless floppy keyboard to reposition it every few words typed.

MSSurface_ProLTE_MoProAirport2_Lifestyle_RGB_FY18-300x200.png


People who have been using computers for many decades really do deserve more than this crap. Those that are relatively new to computers, well, they don't know any better how absurd things really are these days.

Last one I promise!

RE4OAP9


Do people really get paid to do whatever the fsck this guy is doing? He should write his notes in text form, suitable for an email, like normal people do. His clients are unlikely to have his same "scribble app" installed so can't even engage with his "work" ;)
 
kpedersen said:
Someone who can't get a couple of commands working to get a WM running means that they might also start opening up their system to security risks without realizing either because they have no clue whats going on; they don't know what they are typing / copying and pasting.
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What you're not considering is that perhaps people are not complete morons, but they would rather just not want to learn how to get X working so they can get on with their life continue doing their compiler, network, or any other thing that is not sysadmin work.
 
jammied said:
?… undermine …
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grahamperrin said:
Historically, Apple did not suffer from the combination of stability + a superb desktop environment.
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msplsh said:
… I don't know what you're saying here. …
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I mean:
  1. we can have good desktop environments with FreeBSD (not integral to FreeBSD)
  2. a combination of two good things does not undermine FreeBSD.
I mean, for example:
  • the baking industry was not undermined when Marmite was invented.
To me, it's absurd when people want FreeBSD to be not used for certain purposes; some of these imagined preventions are quite ridiculous. I mean:
  • if you tell the general public to not put Marmite on toast, the people who enjoy Marmite on toast will continue enjoying Marmite on toast.
 
drhowarddrfine said:
kpedersen I always roll my eyes at the Microsoft Surface commercials that always show how easy it is to create beautiful graphics and images all because of the Surface as if there is no effort or knowledge required on the part of the user.
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Yeah, and here's a frustrated Surface user (tongue-in-cheek, but still):
I do agree with kpedersen , it is silly to expect that others have the same cool apps you do.
 
nap said:
I was just sharing a simple thought and what a ride reading all of your comments. So here's my conclusion.
Surely freebsd can have the best of both worlds. From my perspective to think only in absolutes is just not right.
Maybe from your angle the BSD desktop doesn't sound smart, but it can be an option for all of those who just want an out of the box experience. No tweaks or headaches. Plain simple eye candy and responsive UI with all the standard features.
Anyway in the end it's just a vague idea but fun to try.
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My 2c:

1) Personally I don't want a GUI or DE on FreeBSD. I use FreeBSD for the lean stable base server install. I can add to that, and for my personal use case that's enough. Obviously that doesn't mean that a lot (maybe a LOT more) people would prefer a "full-fat" version or multiple versions - something like Linux Mint with different DEs to try. But for me and others - a lean stable foundation I can build on is a good base and one of the key things that attracts me to use FreeBSD - for some things. If FreeBSD ends up bloating or focused on the desktop experience then it might lose some users.

2) As others have said - there are so many options - I use Windows, Mac, Linux if I want a GUI experience that will just work with most hardware and software. The manufacturers will throw more resource at those operating systems than they ever will at FreeBSD.

3) I worked on a school parent teachers association (PTA) and there was a small core group of us - less than 10. But many many many people would come with their great ideas that the PTA should do - or "someone" should do. When you asked them (the people with the ideas) to run with their ideas and actually make things happen - silence and shocked looks. Oh, no, they didn't have the time or energy to IMPLEMENT all the ideas - that was up to the core PTA. Sometimes their ideas were great etc. but there just wasn't the resource to make them happen. And that's the same with the BSDs - there are a core of people that can make things happen, but just not enough of them to satisfy all the ideas, needs, dreams, requirements of the end-users.

So as a thought experience - it would be great if FreeBSD had the resource to have multiple versions with multiple DEs (and a lean version for servers) and it supported everything under the sun (graphics, network, wifi) etc. - but I don't think that's ever going to happen. And if it did happen - wouldn't it be Linux?
 
An attractive and focused desktop is a great thing, but if you want popularity you necessarily have to focus on other non-technical aspects, like help desk in your local language. That is not happening.
 
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