FreeBSD Foundation Flounders on 15 with Rust, pkgbase, and KDE

malco_2001 said:
On FreeBSD, X.Org:
  1. Performs basic hardware detection
  2. Cannot determine which driver to use
  3. Requires explicit driver specification in xorg.conf
  4. Fails to start NVIDIA for example without manual configuration
Click to expand...
Maybe this would be a good feature request for XLibre ;) .
 
msplsh said:
Uhh, what is wrong with you people? KDE is an option because people expect to be able to use a GUI on their computer. This is now a conspiracy or a bad thing? Options? Hello, ports exists?
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You are right! You are not happy with what you have modified it yourself!
 
baaz said:
Maybe this would be a good feature request for XLibre ;) .
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On FreeBSD, Xorg does NOT "Require explicit driver specification in xorg.conf"... you can just install Xorg from packages and be done with it. Would be nice if XLibre were similar in that regard.
 
For what it's worth, I *do* add something to rc.conf with kld_list for my beelink with an AMD GPU and my Dell with an Nvidia. But I haven't had to do anything with xorg.conf for a long time. I did, with14.2, running FreeBSD on a bhyve vm, have to make an /usr/local/X11/xorg.conf.d entry to specify that the VM was using scfb, but that's the only time in a lonnng time, that I've had to worry about an xorg.conf. Note this is just my experience. The Beelinks are fairly new, the Dell with an Nvidia is from 2017 or so, though it's video card has been replaced at least once.
 
cracauer@ said:
Myself I don't like automount because it defaults to read-write access. I don't want to touch the filesystem until I need to.
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I've been using automountd since my SunOS 4, Solaris, and Tru64 days. I cut my teeth on those early Sun and DEC systems.

This is also why I use CDE. The DEC Alpha 3000 (later 4000) on my desk had CDE as its desktop environment. Old habits die hard.
 
fmc000 said:
Problem solved.
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No. Moving to OpenBSD is not a solution for every technical FreeBSD user. XD

What about ZFS or Bhyve for those people that need it? Turning FreeBSD into a Linux-like mess for a negligible increase in non-technical desktop users (i.e. people who can't type "pkg install") will absolutely waste those innovations.

And lets be honest, the masses will then start to tap at OpenBSD's doors as they spread. FreeBSD should cut it off here as the last bastion of sensibility. A better solution would be for them to go back to Linux (or Windows).

I notice newbies in the Linux world these days tend to start with Arch Linux (which I find amusing; a big shift from Ubuntu back in the day). This is a good demonstration that sometimes they don't know what they should be using and it is for *us* to suggest that they should find something else; rather than even attempting to cater to them. And that is fine.
 
kpedersen said:
No. Moving to OpenBSD is not a solution for every FreeBSD user. XD

What about ZFS or Bhyve for those people that need it? FreeBSD turning into a Linux-like mess for a negligible increase in desktop users will absolutely waste those innovations.
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Yeah, they don't have what freebsd have.
 
I believe that offering during future installations of the choices of graphic offices (several) and automatic parameters concerning the graphics card, is not a sacrilege. The advanced user will make another choice, to keep control of the installation. Some who arrive in FreeBSD to "know", will be able to learn and evolve towards a mastery of the system, because everything will not be pre-won, it will be necessary to read the manual and confront the realities of their needs.PKBASIFY is certainly a much more important change, I have just taken precedence, to test and understand the reality of the concept. I believe that a certain fear is normal, is it founded? I do not have enough knowledge to provide a judgment. The fears, mentioned on the
pkg delete -af
command, will succeed in protective mechanisms separating the FreeBSD base from the rest.
Wait and see
 
kpedersen said:
No. Moving to OpenBSD is not a solution for every technical FreeBSD user. XD
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I meant that it was a solution for YOU, you said that you moved to OpenBSD, good for you.

Myself I will never move to OpenBSD simply because it lacks ZFS, actually I left Linux for FreeBSD because using ZFS with Linux is a PITA and for me an operating system without it is just inconceivable.

BTW, I consider myself a pretty technical user, with over 30 years of experience in Unix and derivatives and yes, I'm running now KDE with pkgbase on my main laptop (FreeBSD 14.3 of course) and both work flawlessly.
 
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Technical users like automation of technical processes like hardware detection and gui configuration. Automation is not exclusive to non technical users. I fully intend to select yes on the GUI question for the 15 release installer. 😁
 
fmc000 said:
BTW, I consider myself a pretty technical user, with over 30 years of experience in Unix and derivatives and yes, I'm running now KDE with pkgbase on my main laptop (FreeBSD 14.3 of course) and both work flawlessly.
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Then, like me, you might not like what FreeBSD might turn into in future. Linux basically. As mentioned a couple of times, my gripe with PkgBase is future breakage of the concept of base in a ~year or so time after release. Gotta project forward a little when forseeing breakage. For example, if you i.e defund the health service, the changes will take a year or so to have a negative effect.

LibreQuest said:
Technical users like automation of technical processes like hardware detection and gui configuration. Automation is not exclusive to non technical users. I fully intend to select yes on the GUI question for the 15 release installer.
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Technical users through experience, appreciate that automation can never hope to suit every use-case.
 
Is this meant to put GhostBSD out of business? Asking for a ghost...errr...friend :what:

Me think desktop/laptop and mobile/IoT market will belong to micro-kernel eventually. Because of driver-hell....and security/stability.

FreeBSD will be for servers using bhyve virtualization, because Docker (or Podman run as root), combined with systemd linux containers will be deemed security risk. Jails will become Alcatraz or they will not survive the attack of A"I" weaponized script kiddies.
 
kpedersen said:
Then, like me, you might not like what FreeBSD might turn into in future. Linux basically. As mentioned a couple of times, my gripe with PkgBase is future breakage of the concept of base in a ~year or so time after release.
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I don't agree.

FreeBSD is a kernel and a userland together and PkgBase does not change this, as the FreeBSD-base repository contains both kernel and userland:
Code: 
[17:05][fmc000@tu45b-freebsd ~]$ pkg info |grep ^FreeBSD-
FreeBSD-acct-14.3p1            System Accounting Utilities
FreeBSD-acct-man-14.3p1        System Accounting Utilities (Manual Pages)
FreeBSD-acpi-14.3p1            ACPI Utilities
FreeBSD-acpi-man-14.3p1        ACPI Utilities (Manual Pages)
...
FreeBSD-kerberos-lib-man-14.3p1 Kerberos Libraries (Manual Pages)
FreeBSD-kerberos-man-14.3p1    Kerberos Utilities (Manual Pages)
FreeBSD-kernel-generic-14.3p1  FreeBSD GENERIC kernel
FreeBSD-lib9p-14.3p1           lib9p package
FreeBSD-lib9p-dev-14.3p1       lib9p package (Development Files)
FreeBSD-libarchive-14.3p1      libarchive package
...
FreeBSD-yp-man-14.3p1          Yellow Pages programs (Manual Pages)
FreeBSD-zfs-14.3p1             ZFS Libraries and Utilities
FreeBSD-zfs-dev-14.3p1         ZFS Libraries and Utilities (Development Files)
FreeBSD-zfs-man-14.3p1         ZFS Libraries and Utilities (Manual Pages)
FreeBSD-zoneinfo-14.3p1        zoneinfo package
[17:05][fmc000@tu45b-freebsd ~]$
Linux is just a kernel and every Linux distribution has everything (i.e. kernel, the equivalent of "userland" and apps) in the same repository.
FreeBSD is going to provide users a better desktop experience in the future? I'm all in for it, I don't need to feel part of an elite of sysadmin/advanced users that take pride of browsing the internet in a terminal or something like that, I'm just too old for it.

And, you know, the fact that KDE is going to be included as an OPTION in the base installer made me more confident to move my main machine to it because it's very likely going to be curated and refined. Right now I haven't been able to use it under Wayland but under X11 it's by far the better KDE experience I've ever tried (last time I tried it was when 6.0 was just out, it wasn't bad but this 6.4.x release is waaaay better).
 
kpedersen said:
Technical users through experience, appreciate that automation can never hope to suit every use-case.
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100% agree, this is something I try to teach my younger colleagues that think that sysadmins and devops are the same and their roles are interchangeable but it seems that this ship has already sailed unfortunately.
 
fmc000 said:
I don't agree.
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To be fair, I hope I am wrong. I can just see base being "picked at". For example, at some point, someone *will* say, "shall we make FreeBSD-yp-man-14.3p1 optional in the base packages? Many users won't need it".

fmc000 said:
And, you know, the fact that KDE is going to be included as an OPTION in the base installer made me more confident to move my main machine to it because it's very likely going to be curated and refined.
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I hope it is going to be. A new user to FreeBSD who doesn't know better will assume this is the "official" FreeBSD desktop and potentially put off by the fact it doesn't have a wifi tool and again assume that FreeBSD doesn't officially support wifi. Really we might consider going back to the sysinstall approach of allowing the installer to select from *any* 3rd party packages. I had no issue with that (and saw bsdinstall as a slight regression from a user perspective).
 
astyle said:
On FreeBSD, Xorg does NOT "Require explicit driver specification in xorg.conf"... you can just install Xorg from packages and be done with it. Would be nice if XLibre were similar in that regard.
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Are you referring to XLibre needing IgnoreABI to be set when using NVIDIA proprietary drivers?
That is now automatically detected and set.

And there were some occasion that I needed to change/add somethings in xorg.conf to make X.Org work on FreeBSD.
 
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