Using FreeBSD as Desktop OS

[Mjölnir]

Hmm, I am glad it works to an extent (I always think computing must absolutely suck if you are disabled) but this does kinda reduces its usefulness on most laptops (rarely do they have numpads). But what about wasd keys? It just doesn't seem flexible enough compared to the ad-hoc approach. DEs rarely do seem flexible enough which is why many people still prefer WMs.

The fat DEs try to cover the average & most wanted use-cases. I don't know what wasd keys are. I'm not interested in any kind of flexibility when it takes me days or weeks to figure out how to get what I want... We must not fill the precious forum's space & waste our time with a pro/contra bare WM vs. full-featured DEs discussion. I have to admit I started it...

In all fairness, most platforms "support" high resolutions simply by making things bigger. This seems to completely waste the whole point of high resolutions. Instead they just use more power and are more resource intensive for no gain. To truely support high res, a complete redesign of how we think about GUI paradigms is in order.

That's the Gtk way... Enable Qt's automatic HiDPI scaling (in sddm.conf), then see & enjoy the difference.

 

[mickey]

I changed the repeat delay to 1 ms

Are you sure about that? 1ms?

I don't know what wasd keys are.

Those keys are usually used in games for controlling movement, up/down, left/right, and after years I still dont get it how anyone can play any game whatsoever using those keys. First thing I usually do is remap those keys to use the cursor keys instead.

Regarding the KDE style I just say one thing: Breeze AlphaBlack

 

[Márcio Rezende]

Pals...

I always wondered what mjollnir here asks: why bother using a "raw" environment instead of using a full "Whistler-n-Beller? Honky-Donkey?"

I have always liked (and used) KDE since I first met it in 1998. What surprises me is why they use KDE to do the same thing that well-known and established window systems already do?

I think KDE, like Gnome, is bloated ... But they are rightly bloated: to give us more comfort.

So why do we look for "discomfort" if we already have "comfort"?

I think that:

1) We look for certain discomforts because we are not lazy and we like to have fun learning.

2) As in the 'Naked and Afraid' paradigm: when we put ourselves in a situation of discomfort we learn to value comfort and to deal with it with more "responsibility": it is not just because it is there that we have to use it.

3) For the sake of homage and respect for those who did not have that comfort, like the old patriarchs, they did everything they did to have that comfort. Keeping that culture alive is a matter of principle.

My beautiful tablet book has everything I need at my fingertips, simply by initializing the partition on the internal NVMe or by placing one of the Linux live distros that have everything working ... Ok, there is.

If I want to work and do the same boring things I always do, it will be the same distance as I reach my nails. But if I want to learn and have fun and even work more fun, I keep the "beastie" right next to me, growing and learning and with it.

I fear that opinions with a critical bias are a seed for a fiery war - no fun ... At least for me.

A few days ago I installed and tried to use MULTICS and I was then able to have a dimension of 50 years ago what the world was like without a mouse: Space Travel was (and is until today) played. If you want to have an idea, just install it. I did and I was surprised how Unix was ... But without the current nail polishes and even then, raw, they managed to do what they did and that is why we have our “comforts” today.

Besides, each one has its problems. But try to help when possible it is a good camaraderie habit that deserves to be fostered.

 

[shkhln]

Those keys are usually used in games for controlling movement, up/down, left/right, and after years I still dont get it how anyone can play any game whatsoever using those keys. First thing I usually do is remap those keys to use the cursor keys instead.

Really? It's a typical FPS control scheme: left hand for movement (wasd), right hand for camera control (mouse).

 

[ekvz]

almost every time a new major version comes out.

That's what i love about my setup: 10 years from now it will look and be exactly the same. Even if i had to compile all the sources (aside from X itself maybe) it would still be easy to keep it going.

 

[mickey]

Really? It's typical FPS control scheme: left hand for movement (wasd), right hand for camera control (mouse).

Then it's probably because I use a trakball instead of a mouse left handedly and cursor keys (+ins/del/home/end/pgup/pgdown) on the right for movement and anything else

 

[shkhln]

Then it's probably because I use a trakball instead of a mouse left handedly and cursor keys (+ins/del/home/end/pgup/pgdown) on the right for movement and anything else

Sure enough, if you are left handed it makes sense to remap this.

 

[Mjölnir]

mickey: No, I was refering to the configuration of accessibility aids as in my previous post.

 

[mickey]

Sure enough, if you are left handed it makes sense to remap this.

Just left-moused, not left handed... Putting the mouse on the left side was a deliberate decision I made many years ago cause it seemed more ergonomic to me. For example when alternating between mouse and keyboard you don't have to reach over the "dead space" caused by the numerical keypad on usual AT keyboards, and your arm takes a more natural, relaxed position.

 

[a6h]

I'm always amused when you "minimal WM" freaks are willing to invest maximum time & effort to set up enhanced configuration to resemble the same effects that are standard in a full-blown GUI... On KDE

I'm one of those WM minimalist freaks, i3oid to be exact! and/but I approve your message [WINK/WINK]

Really? It's a typical FPS control scheme: left hand for movement (wasd), right hand for camera control (mouse).

AFAIR Doom II or Duke Nukem 3D was my first time WASDing. I can't remember exactly, but no WASD for Wolfenstein 3D. Am I correct?

 

[kpedersen]

I'm not interested in any kind of flexibility when it takes me days or weeks to figure out how to get what I want...

Honestly, I am. But only if I have to do it exactly *once* and then I can move on with my life until the Wayland kids come in and fsck(8) everything up.

I don't know what wasd keys are.

As mentioned by others, it is a control scheme mostly for gaming, however it is a good example of a flexibility that most people would expect. Another typical one is 'hjkl' so you don't need to move your hand away from the home row. For true disabilities this is very important because the arrow keys are hard to reach, especially if you have one arm, and it happens to be on the wrong side.

I am certainly not suggesting KDE is bad (to the contrary, the death of Gnome 2 has made KDE very competitive again!). Simply that it cannot (and never will) be able to cater to everyone. And since Windows has 99% of the market, KDE is as niche as the rest of us I am afraid XD. I just hope your requirements remain inline with what the KDE developers dictate.

That's what i love about my setup: 10 years from now it will look and be exactly the same. Even if i had to compile all the sources (aside from X itself maybe) it would still be easy to keep it going.

Yep, I find this fairly liberating! Every year or so I spend a little time looking at what is "current" but always come to the same conclusion that it is either less effective, time consuming or unsustainable. One big thing I have learned (due to the continuing success of the Windows desktop and Gnome 3) is that usability experts absolutely do not exist and you just have to decide what works best for you, ignoring almost everyone else!

I did have a few concerns in the past that Wayland was going to undo a *lot* of good work but frankly, the day it gets popular I reckon it will include more X11 functionality via compatibility layers than Xorg does currently XD

Enable Qt's automatic HiDPI scaling (in sddm.conf), then see & enjoy the difference.

I did try this out, it wastes too much space. In no way am I ever going to allow a taskbar take up over 500 pixels in height! XD
If I wanted a big taskbar I would plug in my old 1024x768 LCD and save the electricity!

 

[ekvz]

Really? It's a typical FPS control scheme: left hand for movement (wasd), right hand for camera control (mouse).

Correct me if i am wrong but i vaguely remember at least some of first generation shooters (Wolfenstein 3D, Doom, Duke Nukem, Blood, Blake Stone, ...) using cursor keys which led to me remapping keys once the first Quake/Quakebased games appeared. I've been playing like 10 years of ET using cursor keys but the whole layout is quite custom (there are no default keys and weapon switching is done in a somewhat strange way) and also depends on a very specific keyboard model. With the right keyboard it's perfect though. It opens up so many movement possibilities that would end in broken fingers on a default layout.

 

[Mjölnir]

[Qt's automatic HiDPI scaling] I did try this out, it wastes too much space. In no way am I ever going to allow a taskbar take up over 500 pixels in height! XD
If I wanted a big taskbar I would plug in my old 1024x768 LCD and save the electricity!

You can easily change the taskbar's height. Obviously, some sizes are too large, some too small, as this is fairly new stuff it's no surprise that the defaults are far from perfect & the whole thing contains bugs that remain to be fixed. At least they support the facilities of modern displays, fonts are crystal clear.

 

[ekvz]

Honestly, I am. But only if I have to do it exactly *once* and then I can move on with my life until the Wayland kids come in and fsck(8) everything up.

Exactly. My GUI has been mostly in stasis for a couple of years now. I have some plans to improve it but that's something for when i happen to have a lot of free time as it's perfectly usable as is and a lot of the things i'd like to try are rather experimental anyways.

One big thing I have learned (due to the continuing success of the Windows desktop and Gnome 3) is that usability experts absolutely do not exist and you just have to decide what works best for you, ignoring almost everyone else!

To be honest the evolvement of DEs puzzles me. OK, in the case of Windows i kinda understand how it has to reinvent itself to keep selling copies but regarding non commercial projects i am fully at loss. The base functionality probably hasn't really changed in 10-15 years but still the product keeps changing and changing way more than the added functionality (which often seems to me like it would be used by a tiny fraction of the user base at best) would require. What is the goal here? A functional environment or some artistic statement?

As far as usability experts are concerned: They certainly are not experts of my usability. According to my GUI most of them should have retired soon after Windows 2000 was released and the other half should have finally scratched that messy waste of space called "desktop" and put something useful (a tabbed full screen terminal, what else?) there

 

[kpedersen]

According to my GUI most of them should have retired soon after Windows 2000

Agreed. Sadly, nowadays I don't feel developers have the skill or discipline to make a desktop environment anywhere nearly as functional or consistent as the Windows 2000 shell. Not to mention the entire OS, not just the UI could run in ~100MB of RAM. That is fairly outstanding. Instead, to make up for their shortcomings, developers now just add more tacky OpenGL effects as the windows whizz around the screen. What a joke.

and put something useful (a tabbed full screen terminal, what else?) there

Yes, even traditional GUI software is becoming just one big maximized window. Gimp, Dia and Gnome3 are some that come to mind. People are basically starting to use a computer like they would MS-DOS (and DESQview for the multi-tasking). We just need to wait until others catch up (catch down?) and suddenly we will be seen as "modern" again! XD

 

[Mjölnir]

KDE has activities & virtual desktops instead of tabs. Very handy. And the graphical effects adopt to the machine's hardware automagically. It runs well on low resources. So what?

 

[phalange]

What is the goal here? A functional environment or some artistic statement?

Can't it be both?

the windows whizz around the screen. What a joke.

I don't think that's so bad. Horses for courses. I don't (often) use anything but a window manager, but I fool with Plasma now and then to see what they're up to. I must say, I admire the frills. It's fun, flashy, and it has its place.

 

[kpedersen]

It runs well on low resources. So what?

What would you define as low resources? I suspect we might be out of calibration.

I must say, I admire the frills. It's fun, flashy, and it has its place.

I do agree but feel we must be very careful that it doesn't define the desktop and smother innovation or lighter alternatives.

We can *kinda* see this with Wayland. The complexity of implementing a compositor has greatly reduced the choice of light window managers. It is getting to the point where if it wasn't for Sway, there would be next to nothing light to compete with monstrosities like Gnome 3.

It is fairly common for users "new" to the UNIX world to come along and assume this kind of environment is the defacto standard when it isn't. There is more to computing than flashy desktops! Especially on fringe OSes like FreeBSD where a lot of functionality is missing from KDE (and especially Gnome 3 due to focus on systemd tech). Who are those users going to blame? KDE or FreeBSD. I can guarantee it is the latter.

 

[ekvz]

Yes, even traditional GUI software is becoming just one big maximized window. Gimp, Dia and Gnome3 are some that come to mind. People are basically starting to use a computer like they would MS-DOS (and DESQview for the multi-tasking). You and I just need to wait until others catch up (catch down?) and suddenly we will be seen as "modern" again! XD

I've experimented with having multiple full screen apps on various workspaces (as in the desktop on workspace 1 is the fullscreen terminal seen above, workspace 2 has a full screen file manager, ...) but it didn't seem very practical. I keep my terminal where a couple icons and long forgotten text files would otherwise sit on some cutesy wallpaper but that's enough full screen for me

 

[shkhln]

Correct me if i am wrong but i vaguely remember at least some of first generation shooters (Wolfenstein 3D, Doom, Duke Nukem, Blood, Blake Stone, ...) using cursor keys which led to me remapping keys once the first Quake/Quakebased games appeared.

I'm not sufficiently old to correct anyone with regard to early shooters. All I know is that by the time Q3, UT and Counter-Strike arrived WASD was already established as the dominant control scheme.

I've been playing like 10 years of ET using cursor keys but the whole layout is quite custom (there are no default keys and weapon switching is done in a somewhat strange way) and also depends on a very specific keyboard model. With the right keyboard it's perfect though. It opens up so many movement possibilities that would end in broken fingers on a default layout.

Well, if you need a custom keyboard you might as well use an ortholinear mechanical keyboard, or a gaming mini-keyboard, or an Apple Magic Trackpad with some sort of virtual keys emulation for all I care. What kind of pointing device do you use though?

 

[ekvz]

Can't it be both?

I don't know, maybe? It just seems to me that those goals often interfere with each other.

Well, if you need a custom keyboard you might as well use an ortholinear mechanical keyboard, or a gaming mini-keyboard, or an Apple Magic Trackpad with some sort of virtual keys emulation for all I care. What kind of pointing device do you use though?

I am not sure if a certain ultra cheap laptop style keyboard really is all that custom. It's just specific i'd say.

 

[phalange]

It is fairly common for users "new" to the UNIX world to come along and assume this kind of environment is the defacto standard when it isn't.

It's true. But then again, I came from the gimmick-filled DE-dominated world of MacOS and Windows. I remember the first time I saw OpenBox and I was like, holy s***. My head exploded. That was it. My point is, there's hope.

 

[kpedersen]

I'm not sufficiently old to correct anyone with regard to early shooters.

It was probably as soon as proper rasterization came in (i.e not ray casting like Build Engine, Doom) and people needed to actually look up and down in actual 3D worlds rather than "pretending" then we needed the mouse because the pg-up/pg-down was too awkward!
'wasd' then just felt more balanced than using arrow keys and mouse both on the right.

I didn't really like the idea at first but I recall the game that finally convinced me was Half-Life. Duck jumping and facing into pipes was too hard without XD

Since I have gone back to older shooters (less DRM!), I am back to the arrow keys haha!

 

[ekvz]

Since I have gone back to older shooters (less DRM!), I am back to the arrow keys haha!

If you are into that kind of thing you should like really, really, really check out Blade Of Agony. You can thank me later

 

[shkhln]

It was probably as soon as proper rasterization came in (i.e not ray casting like Build Engine, Doom) and people needed to actually look up and down in actual 3D worlds rather than "pretending" then we needed the mouse because the pg-up/pg-down was too awkward!
'wasd' then just felt more balanced than using arrow keys and mouse both on the right.

Not quite, Quake and Quake 2 default to arrow movement. MDK is similar as well. So, it took roughly 2-3 years at least.