Solved Future of BSD: Web Design, special attention to desktops and more users

P

Patrick A Lima

Hello FreeBSD Community, I would like to discuss the following.
I'm working on a project that aims to build a "distribution" of Web-based technology, inspired by Firefox OS, in the challenges I've been facing I've been reflecting on using FreeBSD and BSDs in general.

The first thing I thought was the look of the FreeBSD site, it works, it's there. But in my opinion I think he deserved a makeover, the FreeBSD Foundation site is very beautiful, well done and neat, until reddit.com has already gained a new look, although this is only visual and may not have that much value, a better presentation of the system would be welcome :)

The second thing is that FreeBSD can work fine on desktops, however some utilities like animated bootsplash support are missing for the system, I particularly think this would be very welcome especially for simpler, let's say home users. As creator of design and product I understand that my clients would feel more comfortable to see a beautiful and elegant animation when loading the system, instead of the outputs of the console.

The third thing is that I noticed that the number of FreeBSD maintainers and users is low compared to the Linux people, I understand the various reasons, but I would like to do something to help attract more and more users to the project, I know potential of FreeBSD I like and use it, but some things that Linux focuses on end up making it more attractive.

That said let's ask the final questions and considerations

1-) Are there any project expectations to pay special attention to desktops?
2-) When will we have animated bootsplash support?
3-) If I could propose a new look for the FreeBSD site, could I? and where could I do that? I work with web development too and could help :)

My considerations:
I'm pretty new to FreeBSD, but I've been following it for several years, I study it, I read about it and I love it, I'm Linux user, nothing compares to my love for FreeBSD. I was impressed with the community, the way people are treated and all the affection with the users this is very cool, in my project I am strongly considering using it to be the first BSD desktop based entirely on Web languages, so although I am focused on my project, I understand that if users and maintainers win these can also help FreeBSD :)

I hope to help in some way, thank you all for the attention.
 
1) There is a handbook for porters on the FreeBSD site under documentation which will tell you everything you need to know.

2) Why do we need an animated bootsplash? What does it offer over what we have now? What is gained making it important enough to take away from other work?

3) This has been mentioned often before and my web dev company briefly looked into it. You can search for the thread on this forum. The problem is that the dynamic creation of the site creates antiquated HTML markup so the structure is far too difficult to work with. Changing the HTML would need hands on with that code and I don't know how difficult it would be for that to happen. (I believe it's written in Java.) A CSS only solution to even improve the site is a futile thought.

The FreeBSD Foundation's site is developed separately and was able to do a rewrite far more easily.
 
I understand.

About the animated Bootsplash the vast majority only look at the developer or contributor of the project, I mentioned it because I am looking with the eyes of the users, for example, I am developing a product with FreeBSD so for me and my clients it makes sense to leave the system simpler , more beautiful. I want to take it to people who do not understand programming, computing they are domestic people are worried about turning on the computer and doing their work, see for example also macOS, Windows and even Linux. Regardless of who each of these systems belong to, it has a purpose and each one of its creators makes the necessary decisions to create the best product for its customers. I have researched here in the forum a few times and in several other places, and I could see that there are people interested in creating an animated bootsplash, but they do not do it because FreeBSD does not have support for it. In my view as a developer this would be something more to do and maintain, but this would help other projects share FreeBSD as Desktop as well as Linux.

About the site, I do not know how everything is done or what system they use, but if we could change to something with Nuxt, PHP or any other modern framework that would facilitate the work I would be willing to help.
 
Patrick A Lima said:
The first thing I thought was the look of the FreeBSD site, it works, it's there. But in my opinion I think he deserved a makeover
Click to expand...
Is it a he? Or a she? Are you sure? ;)

Anyway, I totally fail to see any good reasons. Who cares about looks? The main, and most important, task of the website is to provide any required information about FreeBSD. And quite frankly I think it does a good job. A simple menu which makes it really easy to find the information (or resources) you need.

Another thing which I I think you fail to understand is that not everyone will be using a normal browser to access the website. Sometimes all you have is a text browser such as www/lynx which could become a nightmare with a "modern" and "flashy" website.

As said: functionality over looks for me!

Patrick A Lima said:
The second thing is that FreeBSD can work fine on desktops, however some utilities like animated bootsplash support are missing for the system
Click to expand...
No they're not:
Code: 
peter@zefiris:/boot/defaults $ grep splash loader.conf
splash_bmp_load="NO"            # Set this to YES for bmp splash screen!
splash_pcx_load="NO"            # Set this to YES for pcx splash screen!
splash_txt_load="NO"            # Set this to YES for TheDraw splash screen!
bitmap_load="NO"                # Set this to YES if you want splash screen!
bitmap_name="splash.bmp"        # Set this to the name of the file
bitmap_type="splash_image_data" # and place it on the module_path
Although this approach focuses on static splash screens it shouldn't be too hard to apply some kind of animation like a bar or such. Quite frankly I seem to recall that this is already supported but I can't say for sure because I never bothered with this.

But just because a feature is turned off by default doesn't automatically imply that it's also not supported. See, this is specific for the FreeBSD philosophy: it provides you with all the tools required but you'll be the one who needs to set it up.

A basic FreeBSD installation does pretty much nothing but sit there waiting for you to tell it what to do. Which is also where a functional website becomes very important again.

Patrick A Lima said:
The third thing is that I noticed that the number of FreeBSD maintainers and users is low compared to the Linux people
Click to expand...
Feel free to join the ranks and raise the number by one :D

Seriously though; quality over quantity. And quite frankly I can't say that I experience any negative aspects regarding updates (note: we're talking about the base system here, not the ports collection which is a mistake many newbies make). I follow the source tree for my updates and the updates are quite frequent.

Patrick A Lima said:
I understand the various reasons, but I would like to do something to help attract more and more users to the project
Click to expand...
Well, a new website isn't going to do that. But feel free to blog about FreeBSD and spread the word a bit more, that might have a little more effect ;)

Seriously though, I'm not very impressed here. You sound like someone who just discovered FreeBSD yet doesn't really know much about the ideas and philosophy behind it yet still thinks he knows what's best for the project. I would be more impressed if you had actually taken some time and effort to become more familiar with some of those basic aspects before starting to talk about how everything needs to change. But that's just my personal opinion on all this.

Patrick A Lima said:
1-) Are there any project expectations to pay special attention to desktops?
Click to expand...
There are a few spin off distributions, TrueOS comes to mind. But you need to keep in mind that although FreeBSD works perfectly as a desktop the majority of users are actually more interested in the server aspect.
 
ShelLuser said:
the majority of users are actually more interested in the server aspect.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure about "the majority of users", but the majority of "FreeBSD developers" — for sure,
they're using macos. As far as I can see, to be a usable desktop OS — is not even secondary FreeBSD goal,
and it is pretty sad IMO, because, I believe, FreeBSD may be much better desktop OS than GNU/Linux is, but, unfortunately, this isn't true for now. FreeBSD on desktop is only for "hobbyists" for now and it may even
never change, because I don't think that Apple Co is interested in free desktops, they're interested in people
buying their $hit, so I believe they're very happy with current situation with FreeBSD and won't change nothing.
 
Well as you said, I understand that the focus of it is for server, however I and some people find it incredible to run it on a desktop, I've known it for a few years and I know how the system works. However this does not compare to the time you or other members have, if I buy myself I'm really new to the system, I know the basic philosophy of the project, I know how it came about, its history, what it did and what it's doing. I can not contribute in big ways because of a time limitation and computational now, the fact of suggesting these changes does not mean that I do not know how it works the big question is that at least I think this, some users just want to use the system and I understand this, some people are not interested in the history of the project, its philosophy and so on ... I do not blame them nor does everyone understand it like us, but I also understand these people.

As ILUXA said, I'm also not sure how much users are interested in it as a server, developers are! Users just want to use, work.

I'm saying this seeing as a user, I'm a developer and although the quality is always what we look for the numbers are also important. Some things for the desktop in freebsd are not even considered as secondary what I think

ShelLuser said:
Is it a he? Or a she? Are you sure? ;)
Click to expand...
Sorry, was a translation error :-D

ShelLuser said:
Seriously though, I'm not very impressed here. You sound like someone who just discovered FreeBSD yet doesn't really know much about the ideas and philosophy behind it yet still thinks he knows what's best for the project. I would be more impressed if you had actually taken some time and effort to become more familiar with some of those basic aspects before starting to talk about how everything needs to change. But that's just my personal opinion on all this.
Click to expand...

I apologize for having got that impression, as I said I know how it works and its basic philosophy, only now am I manifesting myself after years. And I know it's uncomfortable for a project that's been receiving opinions like these for years, I understand the difference of philosophy, the target audience and everything. But I think that someday this could change and give special attention to Desktop someday :-)
 
I think the website is fine - although I think it can be cleaned up a little bit. Gentoo's site is a good example of clean and minimal.

If FreeBSD isn't going to ship a graphical version, at least provide screenshots of major DE ports working; ie. KDE 5.x, GNOME 3.28, etc. Again, Gentoo does this quite well. Should raise some eyebrows.

Patrick A Lima said:
1-) Are there any project expectations to pay special attention to desktops?
Click to expand...

No. I don't think there will ever be. Have you seen the Focus list for FreeBSD 13 from the vendor summit? Very little are desktop related. With Macs in their hands, and no incentive to focus on and dogfood - i'm afraid it'll still be an afterthought.
 
Yes I saw, I was very happy and sad at the same time. The system is improving, but nothing on the desktop yet. I have been working on my project for a long time and because I can not reach some resources I think I will migrate to Linux and wait for the day FreeBSD will support 100% Desktop.
 
Trihexagonal said:
Wait... No wobbly windows or animated bootsplash screen?

How are we supposed to keep desktop users with competition like that?
Click to expand...
No fully working nvidia drivers (no nouveau). You're very lucky if suspend feature (to RAM only, there is no suspend to disk) is working for you, etc. And it is in 2018. So such desktop OS is not for everyone so far, it won't even fit the needs of majority of current Linux users (like Gentoo users), there are a lot of GPU-s which won't be working/fully working with FreeBSD. All functionality, which isn't server related, is in pretty poor condition in FreeBSD, and it is one of biggest FreeBSD problems IMO. For example, the problem with RAM usage (RAM memory doesn't frees up) with X apps in 11.2-RELEASE on some machines (which was reported in this forum), I think such problem would never appear, if FreeBSD developers were using this OS on their desktops.

And "wobbly windows" are really available in FreeBSD :) Because x11-wm/compiz is ported.
 
ILUXA said:
And "wobbly windows" are really available in FreeBSD :) Because x11-wm/compiz is ported.
Click to expand...

Well there's the problem. I've never used x11-wm/compiz so I didn't know.

Still, I use my laptops as desktops and never use Suspend, all my hardware is supported and everything that goes along with it has been enough to satisfy me as a desktop user. I've never had and problems with RAM or Swap usage.

And I actually like ASCII art. ;)
 
Trihexagonal said:
And I actually like ASCII art. ;)
Click to expand...
Me too :)
Code: 
               ,        ,
              /(        )`
              \ \___   / |
              /- _  `-/  '
             (/\/ \ \   /\
             / /   | `    \
             O O   ) /    |
             `-^--'`<     '
            (_.)  _  )   /
             `.___/`    /
               `-----' /
  <----.     __ / __   \
  <----|====O)))==) \) /====|
  <----'    `--' `.__,' \
               |        |
                \       /       /\
           ______( (_  / \______/
         ,'  ,-----'   |
         `--{__________)

  ______
 |  ____| __ ___  ___ 
 | |__ | '__/ _ \/ _ \
 |  __|| | |  __/  __/
 | |   | | |    |    |
 |_|   |_|  \___|\___|
  ____   _____ _____
 |  _ \ / ____|  __ \
 | |_) | (___ | |  | |
 |  _ < \___ \| |  | |
 | |_) |____) | |__| |
 |     |      |      |
 |____/|_____/|_____/

  ```                        `
 s` `.....---.......--.```   -/
 +o   .--`         /y:`      +.
  yo`:.            :o      `+-
   y/               -/`   -o/
  .-                  ::/sy+:.
  /                     `--  /
 `:                          :`
 `:                          :`
  /                          /
  .-                        -.
   --                      -.
    `:`                  `:`
      .--             `--.
         .---.....----.

Trihexagonal said:
Still, I use my laptops as desktops and never use Suspend, all my hardware is supported and everything that goes along with it has been enough to satisfy me as a desktop user. I've never had and problems with RAM or Swap usage.
Click to expand...
That's because your hardware (thinkpads) is almost the best supported kind of hardware on FreeBSD,
but not all people are using them :) also, even those who use them, often don't use intel integrated graphics (where suspend to RAM is working fine).
 
My T400 use Switchable Graphics with Intel GMA 4500MHD and ATI Mobility Radeon HD 3470 and you need to set it in the BIOS like you do with Optimus, where it defaults to the RV620/M82 [Mobility Radeon HD 3450/3470].

My X61 uses Intel Graphics Media Accelerator X3100 (Intel 965).
 
ILUXA wrote:

> and it is pretty sad IMO, because, I believe, FreeBSD may be much better desktop OS than
> GNU/Linux is, but, unfortunately, this isn't true for now.

I am not sure that FreeBSD or any of the BSDs, are a better desktop OS than Linux is (I don't
use the term "GNU" because I actually consider it to be a misnomer that RMS propagated).

When I refer to "Linux", I refer here to the whole of Linux. That includes the various distributions,
including those that are, as far as I am concerned, closer towards the BSD model (Gentoo,
VoidLinux etc...); but also oldschool variants (Slackware in particular) and last, but not the least
important, at the least to me: LFS/BLFS (Linux from Scratch / Beyond Linux from Scratch).

I think if you refer in particular to all of these, but LFS/BLFS most above all, then you have
a flexible philosophy that can be quite close to the BSD model.

For example, ports-based compiling is not so different from the LFS/BLFS model that you
can use. You could use a package manager on top of that too; or you could use versioned
AppDirs such as GoboLinux would do (and NixOS to some extent, although they use
those ugly hashes as part of the directory name; NixOS is quite advanced from a conceptual
point of view, though - I think it may be the only distribution that also focuses on a reproducible
system from the core).

Anyway, before I digress too much from the quote - I think if you include all these different
distributions too, and source-based installation models, then the differences between Linux
as a whole, and all the BSDs as a whole, aren't that different - since you can do almost the
same in either variant. Including compiling literally everything from source, which I do too
(excluding a few large programs that tend to be a bit annoying to compile, such as
libreoffice; here I usually just download the .deb from their website and use it on my slackware
system :P).

But to conclude - I think at the end, one of the real big difference is what the kernels offer.
Hardware support in particular. To some extent also stability of a system too, of course.

I think that both Linux and the BSDs are quite stable so this point will not be a huge difference
but when it comes to hardware support, what I always read in general is that the BSDs may
lag behind here or there. Now IF this is the case - and mind you, I write IF - then it makes the
claim that BSD is better than Linux as the better desktop OS sort of mood, since it may well
be the only real difference that ultimately matters to an end user. I think most end users want
to get their hardware to work on the OS they are using. For Windows this is obviously quite
easy since there will be drivers written (as some hardware requires these drivers in order to
function).

So I think that whenever we compare which OS may be better, we also have to include an
objective "is this hardware supported on BSD and/or Linux" too.

- In the thread there was a reference to systemd and BSD not having a systemd variant (other
than perhaps a shim, such as we may have when it comes to pulseaudio, such as via
apulse https://github.com/i-rinat/apulse).

I also know of threads where Linux people switch to BSD because they dislike systemd.

I do not like systemd at all but the good thing is - I do not use it. Neither do I need it but this
is another point. I can avoid systemd without a problem. The only thing that may not work
is ... GNOME, which is no surprise since Red Hat is the driving force behind systemd and
GNOME. But even for GNOME, a Gentoo dev wrote patches to patch out systemd from
GNOME and the gnome desktop works, according to him (I was too lazy to test it for
myself but I have no reason to not trust him; I mostly use KDE plasma or mate-desktop
or XFCE).

I think this should also be kept in mind. Just because some corporation is pushing its money
rain towards certain changes, does not mean that everyone will be following the "leader".

(LFS/BLFS "solved" this in a good way, in my opinion, by providing instructions for both
systemd and systemd-free paths. It's still unfortunate that Red Hat decided to split
the linux community but there is no need to follow what Red Hat or any other company
imposes onto a community downstream, even though I understand the problem of
paid corporate hackers versus hobby contributors).

- Patrick A Lima wrote that he may stay on Linux. I myself tried out various BSDs over the
years (I switched to Linux in 2003 as my main OS). Now I don't want to offend the FreeBSD
folks too much so I won't write too much that is controversial. :)

The biggest thing for me to not use any of the BSDs was actually that the advantages of
using BSD, as opposed to Linux, were too little. This may be my lack of knowledge but to
be honest .... after so many years on Linux, on the commandline just about daily,
literally compiling everything from source ... I think it may not "just" be me. It may be that
Linux is a really good OS; and in order for BSD to appeal to more people, if the BSD were
to have such a goal that is, it would have to offer more real incentives and advantages. And
I am not sure this is the case.

If, however had, there may be a single area where you, as the whole of BSD (so not just
FreeBSD but also the other BSDs), could probably improve the most, aside from smaller
usability improvements and so forth, then I think it would be hardware support. It would
be a HUGE thing if we could have a point where we could say that hardware works equally
well on both linux and the BSDs. That would be really really great - I think for everyone,
too, since nobody minds if more hardware is supported (if stability remains the same of
course). But that is all just my opinion - my real tinker days are gone. These days I am
mostly fine to just have an OS (any OS really) that works and allows me to "get things
done", which is usually very basic anyway (browsing, writing documents, doing a bit
of terminal work or write some code, mostly in ruby).
 
shevegen said:
I also know of threads where Linux people switch to BSD because they dislike systemd.
Click to expand...
I don't use this crap on Linux as well,
there are some "distros", which are systemd free,
like for example devuan and it is pretty good OS IMO,
it is one of very few really usable Linux distros, by default it comes with
SysVinit, but I'm using it with openrc. I use it on my laptop, while I still
use FreeBSD on my workstation-backup-testing server. Both systems are working
pretty similarly: logging to first "tty", console mouse, etc. I used FreeBSD on
my laptop for few years too, but I switched eventually, because after recent
releases I started to get some GPU related problems and glitches,
also I finally stopped waiting any improvements of its desktop
experience, because the situation is the same for years,
and won't ever going to change, it seems.

shevegen said:
I think it would be hardware support. It would
be a HUGE thing if we could have a point where we could say that hardware works equally
well on both linux and the BSDs. That would be really really great - I think for everyone,
too, since nobody minds if more hardware is supported
Click to expand...
IMO, at least basic desktop functionality, that also includes support
for at least most popular hardware, is also very important.
Also, IMO there is no need to rival with Linux in hardware support,
there is NetBSD for this, but most popular hardware (including GPUs) should be supported.
 
ILUXA said:
Me too
Click to expand...
More so when mixed with tput. I have both http and ssh servers running now on my desktop, along with ddnsfree so that a static domain name points to my dynamic IP
Code: 
_banner () {
   tput sgr0;tput setaf 3;echo    "      ____                   "
   tput sgr0;tput setaf 3;echo -n "     / __ \\____  ___  ____  ";tput bold;echo "____ _____ ____ "
   tput sgr0;tput setaf 3;echo -n "    / / / / __ \/ _ \\/ __ \\";tput bold;echo "/ __ ) ___// __ \\"
   tput sgr0;tput setaf 3;echo -n "   / /_/ / /_/ /  __/ / / ";tput bold;echo "/ __  \__ \/ / / /"
   tput sgr0;tput setaf 3;echo -n "   \\____/ .___/\___/_/ /_";tput bold;echo "/ /_/ /__/ / /_/ /"
   tput sgr0;tput setaf 3;echo -n "       /_/              ";tput bold;echo "/_____/____/_____/"
}
More usually I have everything maximised, and just alt-tab between browser (with its multiple tabs) and tmux (with its multiple windows).
s.png
2018-11-01-185358-1440x900-scrot.png
 
I'm using Beastie ascii art in my /etc/motd file -
dhYXxLp.png

It appears on login. Here is it with color codes:
Code: 
FreeBSD 10.4-RELEASE-p13 (GENERIC) #0: Thu Sep 27 10:09:35 UTC 2018                             
               ^[[1;31m,        ,
              /(        )`
              \ \___   / |
              /- ^[[1;37m_^[[1;31m  `-/  '                                              
             (^[[1;37m/\/ \^[[1;31m \   /\
             ^[[1;37m/ /   |^[[1;31m `    \
             ^[[1;35mO O^[[1;37m   )^[[1;31m /    |                                             
             ^[[1;37m`-^--'^[[1;31m`<     '
            (_.)  _  )   /
             `.___/`    /
               `-----' /
  ^[[1;33m<----.^[[1;31m     __ / __   \
  ^[[1;33m<----|====^[[1;31mO)))^[[1;33m==^[[1;31m) \) /^[[1;33m====|                           
  <----'    ^[[1;31m`--' `.__,' \
               |        |
                \       /       /\
           ^[[1;36m______^[[1;31m( (_  / \______/                                               
         ^[[1;36m,'  ,-----'   |
         `--{__________)^[[0m

Welcome to FreeBSD!
Color codes should be added with # echo "\033[1;31m" > /etc/motd.
Also "\033[0m" should be added to end of file - # echo "\033[0m" >> /etc/motd.
It is also possible to use Beastie logo in boot loader, just add loader_logo="beastie" to /boot/loader.conf.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
As far as I'm concerned, FreeBSD works just as good as Linux on the desktop.

FWIW, I'm using FreeBSD on the desktop for almost as long as FreeBSD exists, i.e. almost 25 years. Just recently I upgraded to a new X470-based mainboard with Ryzen 2700 and PCIe-based NVM SSD. Works just fine, including my Nvidia card (it's a little older; there was no reason to upgrade it) and a UWQHD screen (22:9). Oh, and an old Symbios USCSI controller card plugged into a PCI-to-PCIe converter because new mainboards don't have PCI slots anymore. Even this thing works, even though it's pretty non-standard (I need it to connect an old high-end SCSI scanner).
 
I am wondering why Google Chromes port is almost 5 months behind, also Iridium. In the age where lots of stuff is web based and hackers often target browsers it seems vital for me to have updated browsers in ports. OpenBSD seems to be a better solution in the context of webdev, they update more often - sorry to compare, but I have always thought there are more FreeBSD devs, but I actually have no clue how much work it is to take openbsd ports code and move it over to FreeBSD.
 
Not that I'm against having up-to-date software in ports, but.. Are you talking about any unfixed vulnerabilities for the version that is in ports? Otherwise I don't understand how "hackers often target browsers" is related to "it seems vital for me to have updated browsers in ports", new versions could bring new vulnerabilities, can't they? ;)
 
Patrick A Lima said:
3-) If I could propose a new look for the FreeBSD site, could I? and where could I do that? I work with web development too and could help :)
Click to expand...
I work in the "digital marketing" (as tech leader) since more that 10 years, and I have to share my opinion...

IMHO, the website appearance in ".org" website is very good as the main "user" is not here to discover FreeBSD.

One of the biggest error in website is to try to simplify all section according to the current good looking fashion.
As an example, a "support" section or "we are hiring" section is not compatible with a pure marketing section. So I think you are right, FreeBSD miss a true marketing website and this website has to be sexy. But please, not the freebsd.org website.

A close to FreeBSD case :

If, as me, you search a FreeBSD for desktop and you find trueOS, the website looks good. But I do not find any useful information on it.
So I have to ask in the "forum" a lot of things. And it appear that TrueOS is NOT a desktop oriented operating system*.
I have to go in Trident Project.
And then I saw an horrible website that prevent me to try it (as if the website looks bad, the user experience of the project is probably not the main prupose...)

So IMHO, the TrueOS website is good for a desktop version of *BSD and the Trident project website is OK for developers / technical information part (exactly the opposite).

But finally, my point is : Please adapt your website with the main goal of it. And the main goal of freebsd.org is not "discover a good OS".
Creating a "get-freebsd.org" website is a better choice for me.

*And then, I admit that TrueOS sound, for me, like a Linux distro. TrueOS use LibreSLL instead of OpenSSL. Ggreat, why they don't propose to the FreeBSD project a merge to let choice to the user ? they exactly know what change they have done to use LibreSSL ... Creating a distro to only use another set of package ? Sond like Ubuntu, Lubuntu, Xubuntu, Kubuntu, Ubntu with Mate ...

Edit : Some mistake and adding precision.
 
Hakaba In case you aren't aware, TrueOS is not part of the FreeBSD and is a completely different organization owned by ixSystems.

TrueOS is FreeBSD and is not a "distro" like those Linux systems you mention which package the Linux kernel to form an operating system. FreeBSD is a complete operating system unto itself.
 
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