What is the future of FreeBSD?

Ilovehotdog said:
if kde or gnome have so many problems, why not take openbox, xfce, icewm or other wm as default?
normal guy just need a "out of box" working environment。
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"normal guy" would not be using FreeBSD. Use the right tool for the job. And in that case, its likely Windows. A "normal guy" would certainly be using the Windows OS that came preinstalled on their laptop.
 
kpedersen said:
"normal guy" would not be using FreeBSD. Use the right tool for the job. And in that case, its likely Windows. A "normal guy" would certainly be using the Windows OS that came preinstalled on their laptop.
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Alright, let me tell you who normal guys are. They watch YouTube or Bilibili, do office work, play Grim Dawn or some other games. If they don't like corporate stuff, they'll go looking for open source projects — like Debian, Manjaro, ... and FreeBSD. Unless, of course, the FreeBSD project comes out and says, "We've got no video, no games, no office apps," or just flat‑out rejects all these normal users.

Or in other words, the FreeBSD project could just come out and say, "If you want to watch videos, do office work, or play games on FreeBSD, you'll have to code or port it yourself."
 
Ilovehotdog said:

Alright, let me tell you who normal guys are. They watch YouTube or Bilibili, do office work, play Grim Dawn or some other games. If they don't like corporate stuff, they'll go looking for open source projects — like Debian, Manjaro, ... and FreeBSD. Unless, of course, the FreeBSD project comes out and says, "We've got no video, no games, no office apps," or just flat‑out rejects all these normal users.
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Be aware this is just a forum and you are just talking to particular users with their particular opinions. Anyhow, use whatever you want to use.
 
AlfredoLlaquet said:
Be aware this is just a forum and you are just talking to particular users with their particular opinions. Anyhow, use whatever you want to use.
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I've proven that FreeBSD can handle everyday stuff for regular users. Even 20 years ago, I was writing Chinese stories and playing Diablo on FreeBSD. Yeah, with twm — it worked just fine. I honestly don't get why Debian lets you choose a default WM (or no WM) during installation, but FreeBSD expects ordinary users to learn how to install, compile, and configure a WM all by themselves.

If you think KDE, GNOME, Xfce... blah blah blah, all have too many problems, you could just offer an option to set twm as the default WM. (That's the route OpenBSD, NetBSD, and Plan 9 took.)

Yeah, I actually really like the classic WM.
 
Ilovehotdog said:
Alright, let me tell you who normal guys are. They watch YouTube or Bilibili, do office work, play Grim Dawn or some other games.
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So that profile is leaning more towards geek. Games consoles and a smartphone would be the more popular approach for normal guys. As soon as you enter closer to "geek", then you are more niche in terms of a market and you need to start putting in some effort if you want to use more exotic solutions.

Ilovehotdog said:
Or in other words, the FreeBSD project could just come out and say, "If you want to watch videos, do office work, or play games on FreeBSD, you'll have to code or port it yourself."
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More likely suggest you use Windows, macOS or possibly even Linux instead where you won't be fighting against the platform at every step of the way.

Lets say you were an astrophysicist. Would you complain to Google/Samsung that Android doesn't run CASA? They would politely tell you to use the correct tool for the job and to jog on.

Is there a specific reason you are here rather than using Linux? Perhaps we should start with that use-case?
 
kpedersen said:
So that profile is leaning more towards geek. Games consoles and a smartphone would be the more popular approach for normal guys. As soon as you enter closer to "geek", then you are more niche in terms of a market and you need to start putting in some effort if you want to use more exotic solutions.


More likely suggest you use Windows, macOS or possibly even Linux instead where you won't be fighting against the platform at every step of the way.

Lets say you were an astrophysicist. Would you complain to Google/Samsung that Android doesn't run CASA? They would politely tell you to use the correct tool for the job and to jog on.

Is there a specific reason you are here rather than using Linux? Perhaps we should start with that use-case?
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Funny thing is, we've been living in the information age for over 30 years now. Even my brother — a 50-year-old repairman with a junior high education — knows what open source is. Does that make him a geek? And should he really be expected to know how to install, compile, or configure a window manager on FreeBSD using just the command line?
 
kpedersen said:
Is there a specific reason you are here rather than using Linux? Perhaps we should start with that use-case?
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I don't know what's technically better in the tech world. I'm just looking for an open-source alternative to corporate crap. So, as an ordinary guy who hates what big business does, here's my take:

Manjaro and Zorin work pretty much 100% out of the box. Q4OS and CachyOS are great for specific hardware needs. GhostBSD and HaikuOS might be solid enough as a Plan B.

So why am I still interested in GhostBSD? Because it's built on FreeBSD, which has genuine Unix blood in its veins. And on an emotional level, I still feel that FreeBSD is more stable and more solid than other operating systems. (My first experience with open source was through FreeBSD, not Linux. it is freebsd5.4)
 
Ilovehotdog said:
I've proven that FreeBSD can handle everyday stuff for regular users. Even 20 years ago, I was writing Chinese stories and playing Diablo on FreeBSD. Yeah, with twm — it worked just fine. I honestly don't get why Debian lets you choose a default WM (or no WM) during installation, but FreeBSD expects ordinary users to learn how to install, compile, and configure a WM all by themselves.

If you think KDE, GNOME, Xfce... blah blah blah, all have too many problems, you could just offer an option to set twm as the default WM. (That's the route OpenBSD, NetBSD, and Plan 9 took.)

Yeah, I actually really like the classic WM.
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I don't think anything. I was just reminding you that you are talking to regular users here.

Probably you are just venting. It's okay.

Also:

Graphical Installer for FreeBSD | FreeBSD Foundation

Initiative to develop a graphical installation interface for FreeBSD Contact: Pierre Pronchery The first challenge for users trying out a new operating system is the installation process, which shapes their initial impression. Nowadays, OS installers usually have a graphical interface, as seen...
freebsdfoundation.org freebsdfoundation.org
 
fahrenheit said:
No, I was just referring to what is need to get a non 3d accelerated DE going.
In the end you just need a framebuffer for EFI (see here: https://wiki.osdev.org/GOP#Plotting_Pixels), svgalib should also work for both vesa and efi. (maybe)
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I have a working X.org with xterm and dependencies in 330MB. That's to me atm the minimal size needed for graphical output on top of the base system.. It's still way too much but it goes in the direction of an independent native graphics driver.
What's left of it if everything that's not crucial is taken out? If 20MB is possible, everything could be pushed in a quite large kernel module...
 
MG,
if I understand your point right, you are complaining about two things:
That for any graphics X is needed, and that X is a large beast. Well, that's partially right, but also depends on the point of view.
First thing is settled?: You either need some graphics capable console, which requires some kernel module ("driver") which makes GPU's graphics capabilties to be available. Or otherwise you have a text only console. Which also can be set to a higher resolution (add efi_max_resolution="1920x1080" to your /boot/loader.conf [see handbook or search the forums for details, it's all several times in here]) and maybe pick another font. vidcontrol(1) is the tool #1 to provide easy configuration on that. But no graphics, but ASCII art. So, just to be clear: You are either in text only mode, or you have some kind of graphics console.
For a graphics console there are two common ways: good, old classic X or Wayland, because for some X was too old, too bloated, too complex, too ... anything, so they started a new thing. However, both have their pros and cons, and there may be others, but I simply don't know any else than those two providing a graphics console for unix[like] or Linux.
If you complain X was too large, too bloated, too complex, especially for primitive jobs, you may be right. But that leads to the common discussion about software at all: If you want something autoinstalling, so respecting almost every kind of hardware - graphic cards are one of, if not the most complex troublemakers in computers of the last fourty years; and each is very different; while it all shall work automatically turnkey, without the user's need to care about it much, and want to have 2D AND 3D graphics support, and this, and that, and this must also be in, and that's indispensable... - of course the beast eventually become bloated. It's the same thing with FreeBSD or some turn-key single user desktop Linux distro: you either get some large (bloated) beast, autoinstalling lots of crap you neither want nor need but you don't need to care about in detail, or you get a very basic system and need to install additionally by yourself all and only the things you need and want. Which needs learning, what there is, what to pick, and how to do the installation and configuration. But you simply cannot have both. Impossible.
And X came a long, long way, baby. Many here still remember the times, when we had to deal with mod lines, flickering or distorted screens, being worried about the monitor's tube blow up... In those days the 300M you mention (I actually don't know how large my X on my machine is, because I don't really care, but that will be this next point exactly) were a number, a large number you recognized in downloading times, and storage space. But what are 300 M today? What are 0.3 G on modern storage device, especially as a system's drive? I often recommend a 64 G ... 128 G was enough for FreeBSD. Apart from you need to pay extra for such a small drive, I hera people read this laughing, because who today runs a machine with less than some 512 G drive? Nobody. So, you just live with it, and don't care. For sure it's some kind of waste. But so it is to store a '1' in some 64bit memory place. :cool:
Except - and that will be my last point:
On some kind of an embedded system, some ARM, Rock, RasbPi,... something like that, if you really need to save space, or want to not have some features onboard, for whatever reasons.
Well, then apart from accepting the given there is two other ways:
Compile X (or Wayland) with your personal modifications, so to get your own stripped down version of X (but don't expect, any of your DE, Office, browser, and what else you have then will run out of the box), or - since to me there are no other alternatives but X and Wayland are known - program your own graphics console.
 
Maturin,

I'm "complaining" about needing a +300MB external display server only to operate a graphics card. See it as research. What's actually required? Not the entire X.org installation but the parts that set a resolution and display things. I think it's tiny for only showing a fullscreen jpeg.
 
MG said:
I'm "complaining" about needing a +300MB external display server only to operate a graphics card. See it as research. What's actually required? Not the
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Well, then I got you right. And again short what I also wrote with explanation:
Compile a modified, stripped down X, see what Wayland can offer here, find or write another graphics console, or learn to live with what's given, which in my eyes offers the least caveats. I may be wrong, but I don't see any other choices so far.
 
MG said:
Maturin,

I'm "complaining" about needing a +300MB external display server only to operate a graphics card. See it as research. What's actually required? Not the entire X.org installation but the parts that set a resolution and display things. I think it's tiny for only showing a fullscreen jpeg.
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T-Aoki explained why very clearly in the previous page:
T

Post in thread 'What is the future of FreeBSD?'

MG said:
So, the complexity of the drm module prevents implementation of a basic graphical program without depending on Xorg?
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I don't think so.

Historically, (not 100% precise, though) graphics on Unix and its derivatives came with X Window system. So it was quite natural that almost all graphics apps used it.

There were other works nearby X Window like early implememtations of SGI IRIS GUIs and a bit later DisplayPostscript (aka DPS, used as a part of NeXTSTEP on NeXT WS), but SGI switched to X Window later and DPS are not widely used (if I understand / recall correctly, Apple dropped it...
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But I guess you want reality to meet exactly your fancy. Good luck with that.
 
AlfredoLlaquet said:
But I guess you want reality to meet exactly your fancy. Good luck with that.
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Nah, if reality meets my fancies exactly, then god help us all.
Seriously:
Sometimes it's just to give another angle of view on some topic already said, or to elaborate a certain point more deeply. I agree that for some this comes redundant. But by my experience with some people it's sometimes helping to bring another perspective. I include myself: Often enough not seeing the forest because of the trees (german saying), but when some one brings another perspective it all drops like flakes from the eye (another german saying.)

But Dude,
apart from explaining how discussions work, I cannot help the feeling after it seems you learned "Hey! WOW!! Look at that fancy stuff AI made for me!!! AI is so great, we must have it everywhere for everything!!!!" was not the last wisdom, you fell into some dark hole of depression, and only posting negative, sometimes destructive, even depressive posts.
As I already said in some other post of mine, just because I don't share this blind "AI will only bring benefits to all humankind only" (I'm just too old and to realistic to believe in there is anything bring benefits only) I neither disrespect your knowledge nor you as a person - in contrary. (really.)
But your lately negative attitude is going me on my nerves, since it's not providing anything constructive. While also negative opinions can be constructive - very constructive, because they prevent mistakes. But they need explanations. "What you say is just shit!" may be right. But without any explanation at all, or a link to learn what's not shit, it's just destructive.
Apart from that, I question if it's still FreeBSD what your are talking, or just abusing this forums for you negative attidude.
And apart from that, you are still not on my ignore list - so to me, there is hope left, underlining what I said, I respect your expertise and person.
:beer:
 
Maturin said:
But your lately negative attitude is going me on my nerves, since it's not providing anything constructive. While also negative opinions can be constructive - very constructive, because they prevent mistakes. But they need explanations. "What you say is just shit!" may be right.
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Yeah. One can block/ignore people.
I swear there are "people" that come here with the sole intention of peeing everyone else off. Almost like "I'm not happy until everyone else is upset" I have a sister and sister-in-law like that.
They basically add nothing positive to a conversation, often they add "lots of negative" to a conversation.

Let them open their mouth and prove they are suffering from the ID-ten-T error instead of keeping quiet and not proving it.
 
mer said:
I have a sister and sister-in-law like that.
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Sorry. That cannot just being really annoying, but a real psycho-terror if not dealt with right.
Anyway, there are people deep down this dark hole, and people having just a current phase. Need to deal differently with.
 
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