The Merits of Social Media in this Pandemic

[SirDice]

All these months later, I still haven't met anyone who had the virus. I also haven't met anyone who knows someone who has the virus.

So, things can only exist if you've seen them? Is that your argument?

I asked them if they have ever turned anyone away. All of them had been doing it for weeks, at least, and none of them have.

Maybe the people who know are infected are smart enough to stay at home? You know, responsible people.

They should have been contact tracing from the beginning.

Maybe they didn't in your country, they sure did in mine. But they're running into several problems. Some people flat out refuse to cooperate, for whatever reason. Some people even provide false information. Then there's the problem of sheer numbers. Contact tracing is doable if there's 10 people involved, but due to some people totally ignoring social distancing and just going out to party met dozens, if not hundreds of people. Trying to trace them all gets exponentially worse. It takes a lot of time and effort to do these traces and they're simply running out of manpower to do those checks properly.

Making everyone wear masks and distance from each other is just throwing a blanket over everything.

Social distancing and masks significantly reduce the infection rate. I'm sure you've heard about compound interest and how it works, even a small percentage can grow to large sums given enough time. The infection rate R works the same way. By reducing R you can significantly reduce the speed at which the virus spreads. You do this to try and prevent your healthcare system from getting completely and totally overrun.

 

[mark_j]

So, things can only exist if you've seen them? Is that your argument?

That's how I proved aliens don't exist. Come on!

I was just watching Hard Knocks (NFL Pre-Season documentary) and the opening frames are the Charger's Head Coach Anthony Lynn saying "I've had Covid". He must be the only one ?

 

[getopt]

As someone who was in the ICU with covid, I hope that no one is paying attention to those shouting hoax. It doesn't surprise me on this forum, sad to say. They are incorrect. It is not a hoax. It is very real, it is killing people.

I'm sorry to hear that you were hit by the virus. I hope you are recovering well.
Don't worry about the loud ones. The FreeBSD forums proves to be pretty resilient to what I call strange noise.

Sharing one's views and thoughts does not mean we live in a world of harmony. Disenchantment though may induce clarity of mind.

 

[SirDice]

Sharing one's views and thoughts does not mean we live in a world of harmony. Disenchantment though may induce clarity of mind.

A world where everyone would agree on everything would be utterly boring. It's the nuances and differences in opinion that make things interesting.

 

[Mjölnir]

[...] I think it also helps to remember that this virus was covered up by the Chinese government.
Doctors were jailed for alerting other doctors to the effects.

Agreed. For shure this was not helpful (off topic: I guess you'd call Snowden a criminal). But would it have been possible to contain the virus?

So there is no need to apologize for calling this the Wuhan Virus.
Utter mayhem was foisted upon the world by the Chinese government to save face.
To say that they are not to blame or equate it to a Tsunami is ridiculous.
A tsunami cannot be controlled. A virus can.

A doctor was arrested for warning China about the coronavirus. Then he died of it

Anguish and fury are growing in China, inflamed by an ugly reality: that authorities prioritized saving face over the health and safety of the people.

www.latimes.com

And here we have the exact utterly plain wrong fact-bending intended to pass the buck, that makes me go crazy. Please switch on you mathematical skills and combine the following:

• This virus has a fairly high basic reproduction number & is very easily transmissible
• We have a reasonable immunity against many other highly infective deseases (both natural & by vaccination), but not against the corona-virus. Thus the velocity of spread is exorbitantly high for the Corona virus.
• Many infections happen when the spreader shows no symptoms of beeing infected (thus there's no reason to be tested). In practice, it's impossible to prevent this silent spreading under the radar.
• EDIT Approx. 80% (?) of all infected persons show only mild symptoms or none at all, these add the most to the silent spread.
• Wuhan is part of the world's workbench. Infected business travellers showing no symptoms travelled around the globe from day one of the occurance of the corona virus. EDIT It makes no difference if the Chinese had not suppressed these doctors you referred to above, because numerous infections had already happened outside China when the virus was identified for the 1st time.

Conclusion: We can not stop the spread. No government could have stopped it. All we do is to mitigate/deaccelerate it. By wearing face masks, practicing physical distancing & hygienic measures. And patiently keep on to kindly & convincingly spread the word...

They should have targeted people who came in from other countries that were hot spots. Making everyone wear masks and distance from each other is just throwing a blanket over everything.

See above. You're free to add 1 + 1. What I do not accept, and then I call bullsh*t, nonsense & such by it's name, is when people refuse to apply simple mathematics for political reasons.
P.S.: the 1st infections in US & Germany seem to have happened in late 2019, because of business travellers to/from Wuhan.

 

[drhowarddrfine]

So, things can only exist if you've seen them? Is that your argument?

I said no such thing. I even explicitly stated it isn't a hoax.

Social distancing and masks significantly reduce the infection rate.

I'm sure it does but that's not the point I made.

 

[Birdy]

... masks significantly reduce the infection rate.

Conclusion: ... All we do is to mitigate/deaccelerate it. By wearing face masks, ...

Are you sure about that?

[Mod: Link to unverifiable information removed]

 

[Mjölnir]

Are you sure about that?

No, I'm not. I think the assumption that a face mask reduces the rate of transmission is reasonable, because it holds back droplets. It may not help at all, because of the very small droplets hovering in the air in closed rooms (no air flow), and only very expensive medical PPU filter these micro-droplets. These topics are currently heavily investigated & scientists have not agreed upon a clear statement yet. We have to live with these kinds on uncertainty. At least we try to mitigate the velocity of the spread, based on current knowledge & common sense, and that means we act solidary & guided by compassion. Simply because when too many people get infected at the same time, our hospitals will be overcrowded very soon. My point was that it's cheap & not helpful to play the Jackass game (to pass the buck). Obviously that's what Phishfry and, to a lesser extent, drhowarddrfine do.

 

[drhowarddrfine]

mjollnir No, I'm not passing the buck. My only point is that the burden of this has been passed on to us when the proper response was obvious (to me at least) from the beginning.

 

[getopt]

P.S.: the 1st infections in US & Germany seem to have happened in late 2019, because of busines travellers to/from Wuhan.

Medics having seen the first cases of Covid19-patients at University Hospital LMU Munich have this timeline:

A 33-year-old otherwise healthy German businessman (Patient 1) became ill with a sore throat, chills, and myalgias on January 24, 2020. The following day, a fever of 39.1°C (102.4°F) developed, along with a productive cough. By the evening of the next day, he started feeling better and went back to work on January 27.

Figure 1.

Timeline of Exposure to Index Patient with Asymptomatic 2019-CoV Infection in Germany.
Before the onset of symptoms, he had attended meetings with a Chinese business partner at his company near Munich on January 20 and 21. The business partner, a Shanghai resident, had visited Germany between January 19 and 22. During her stay, she had been well with no signs or symptoms of infection but had become ill on her flight back to China, where she tested positive for 2019-nCoV on January 26 (index patient in Figure 1) (see Supplementary Appendix, available at NEJM.org, for details on the timeline of symptom development leading to hospitalization).

On January 27, she informed the company about her illness. Contact tracing was started, and the above-mentioned colleague was sent to the Division of Infectious Diseases and Tropical Medicine in Munich for further assessment.

Thanks to elaborate media coverage including TV people got aware that the virus is spreading and is no more an Asian event only.

Thanks to the creditable and responsible communication of that Shanghai resident woman the learning curve started there at an early stage.

Instead of thanking that women for her so important warning locals started discriminating people with an Asian appearance. Responsible media coverage including TV contributed to education and slowing down dumb discrimination. Japanese and Vietnamese not having traveled at all had hard days then but that nonsense has almost stopped now.

I remember this time in February very well and I took it as an alert and changed my behavior to washing hands and distancing. When trying to buy a mask in March none were available anymore at that time.

Without reliable media coverage (including TV) I would not have noticed the spreading.

 

[SirDice]

Are you sure about that?

Fairly certain. Are N95 masks better? Definitely. But that doesn't make other masks useless. The link you provided shows someone (no idea who he is or what his expertise is) stating a bunch of "facts" but doesn't provide any references that allows someone else to verify those "facts".

 

[Mjölnir]

mjollnir No, I'm not passing the buck. My only point is that the burden of this has been passed on to us when the proper response was obvious (to me at least) from the beginning.

You wrote the proper response would have been to screen people coming from hotspot regions. My point was that it's reasonable to assume that infections outside of China had started already when the virus was still unknown. Because of it's very high transmission rate, and silent transmission by asymptotic spreaders. Additionally, it's nearly impossible to prevent the silent transmission even now, where we have identified the virus & can test asymptotic people. Thus, yes it is right to screen travellers coming from hotspot areas. But this is only one measure among a few others to mitigate & deaccelerate the spread. It can not and could not stop or contain it. EDIT I.e. you're passing the buck of responsibility from you to authorities. Of course the authorities are responsible to get their tasks done & monitored, but we all are responsible for the measures we can take to mitigate the spread of the virus.

Medics having seen the first cases of Covid19-patients at University Hospital LMU Munich have this timeline: [ Jan 24th 2020 ]

Same argument: It's reasonable to assume that numerous silent infections had already happened when the 1st patient with symptoms showed up in the hospital. EDIT IIRC the infection happened approx./at least 10-14 days before symptoms show up so severe that an infected person has to see a doctor & visit a hospital.

 

[scottro]

Sigh. In a country as ignorant as mine, (the US), people like my wife, a small Oriental, has to deal with idiots screaming you Chinese brought this here. She's not Chinese, by the way. Talking about it coming from China encourages this. Since this thread has had people stating, you don't need a mask, it's a hoax and let's blame the Chinese, I think mods bear some responsibility. Even twitter is blocking misinformation like that. You are allowing dangerous information to be spread, and allowing people to accuse an entire country for the actions of a few. I would expect better. Even a post bringing CURRENT into it couldn't get this one closed.

getopt thank you for your kind wishes. At least, unlike these forums, some of the social media, to return to the topic in the title, are blocking posts decrying masks, or saying it's a hoax.

 

[getopt]

scottro you have always been a valuable member of this forum and I'm glad you are back here.

Regarding the attempts to shut down this thread because of some annoying noise it would not be possible to answer basic questions i.e. on wearing masks.

One may wonder that members still have basic questions, but we try our best to answer all to our best knowledge using reliable information.

You may always use the "report button" for single posts to be reviewed by our mods. Closing the whole thread would be not appropriate as long as a thread is helpful.

 

[scottro]

getopt, thank you. Your reply makes me realize that I'm being as bad as some of the people I'm criticizing. I think the best bet for me is to just stop reading this thread. Problem solved. Again, thank you.

 

[getopt]

Your reply makes me realize that I'm being as bad as some of the people I'm criticizing.

Not at all. You feel hurt because of your COVID19-experience. Anyone with a minimum of empathy understands and respects this. I do myself stay away from threads that I feel not worth reading. It does help. But I'm still here.

 

[Crivens]

scottro sorry to hear that about your wife. I haven't heard anything like that from here.

And when it comes to "all a hoax" or "harmless for kids" - back in march an aquaintence found her kids in the morning pale blue and gasping for air. They went to the ER pronto. The older one collapsed two weeks ago after climbing some stairs. So still severe defects after MONTHs of healing. This virus is no joke nor harmless to kids. He who says otherwise better does not to my face.

 

[scottro]

Well, this is NYC. Fortunately, she's just been screamed at, a few people have been attacked.

 

[mark_j]

mjollnir No, I'm not passing the buck. My only point is that the burden of this has been passed on to us when the proper response was obvious (to me at least) from the beginning.

Yes but ultimately 'us' are the ones who get the virus, so all steps you can take to both mitigate its spread and avoid catching it yourself should seem to be logical. The burden is ours.

It's also not just a virus, it's a novel virus. It has many unknown and novel outcomes from long-term organ damage to remaining in the body long after anti-bodies have formed.

 

[Birdy]

The link you provided shows someone (no idea who he is or what his expertise is) stating a bunch of "facts" but doesn't provide any references that allows someone else to verify those "facts".

Its' a summary of his previous multiple writings which contain the references.

 

[mark_j]

scottro sorry to hear that about your wife. I haven't heard anything like that from here.

And when it comes to "all a hoax" or "harmless for kids" - back in march an aquaintence found her kids in the morning pale blue and gasping for air. They went to the ER pronto. The older one collapsed two weeks ago after climbing some stairs. So still severe defects after MONTHs of healing. This virus is no joke nor harmless to kids. He who says otherwise better does not to my face.

I believe people (some people) take the fact that children are less susceptible to the virus as an indication of immunity. Children seem to be less able to spread the disease because the virus does not make it into the upper respiratory system. They put 1 and 1 together and manage to get 3!
But, as you obviously know first hand, there's a reason this virus is called novel. It's effects are just not typical of what some world leaders call "just a virus".

 

[mark_j]

Sigh. In a country as ignorant as mine, (the US), people like my wife, a small Oriental, has to deal with idiots screaming you Chinese brought this here. She's not Chinese, by the way. Talking about it coming from China encourages this. Since this thread has had people stating, you don't need a mask, it's a hoax and let's blame the Chinese, I think mods bear some responsibility. Even twitter is blocking misinformation like that. You are allowing dangerous information to be spread, and allowing people to accuse an entire country for the actions of a few. I would expect better. Even a post bringing CURRENT into it couldn't get this one closed.

getopt thank you for your kind wishes. At least, unlike these forums, some of the social media, to return to the topic in the title, are blocking posts decrying masks, or saying it's a hoax.

Your country does not hold the ignorant crown alone, I'm afraid. It's happened in mine as well.

However, somehow hiding its origins will do nothing. It came from China, that is fact (regardless of the "facts" presented by the CCP). Denying it is, well, just denial.

Unfortunately, there are ignorant idiots, racist fools and bigots everywhere and the best we can do is call it out when it occurs. It's too bad we can't legislate against stupidity; at least not without filling the jails!

 

[a6h]

ILUXA Nobody should quit. Quitting enables conformity. We shouldn't forget, that outside of the mathematics and logic, there's no absolute truth and we can't prove anything.

 

[sidetone]

Corona virus is real, but some governments have used it as an excuse to take away people's rights. It's of convenience to them.

I don't want to wear a mask when it's hot outside, but a mask is actually to reduce transmission of the disease. Stores should be able to require people to wear a mask inside, even if it's inconvenient when one is left at home, because that's private property. But safety measures are the limit to what a store can do on private property.

Safety measures are the limits for many regional governments. Basic rights are not to be infringed on. On the other hand, not wearing a mask infringes on the safety of others who are susceptible to Covid. It gets into abstract ground, when comparing being required to wear a mask, being required to wear shoes in a store, or being required to wear clothes outside.

 

[Crivens]

ILUXA Nobody should quit. Quitting enables conformity. We shouldn't forget, that outside of the mathematics and logic, there's no absolute truth and we can't prove anything.

When it comes to proof, you forgot booze. But that's it.
You are right about quitting, that would be self inflicting cancel culture.

And ILUXA, please don't post when tipsy. OK?