The end of the web browser

All graphical Browsers seg faults, have strange behaviour, are slow or have problems retrieving Web-sites, including chrome. It is a headache.
I don't see that problem at all. I use two different browsers that are written and distributed by professionals (Chrome and Safari) on a well-supported operating system (MacOS) on reasonably modern hardware (a few MacBooks, between 3 months and 5 years old). I have yet to find a single web page that doesn't work in Chrome, and very few are not perfect in Safari.

The problem you're encountering is not caused by the web, but by trying to use unsupported / obsolete / insufficient software and hardware. What you're saying is: "I took my oxcart, tied the goat behind it, and went on the Autobahn to go to town". Sorry, in modern society oxcarts no longer work, and a goat won't survive the freeway. (The use of oxcarts here is a hat tip to Mussorgsky and Bydlo, greatest tuba solo of all orchestra literature).

They simply do not care if I can do online banking with a normal PC and a "standard" browser.
What you are trying to use is not a normal PC nor a standard browser. It is thoroughly obsolete and unsupported.

Of course, they offer an App for making online banking in the (most modern) smartphone.
There is an interesting reason for that: Smartphones rarely get very old, because (a) the hardware doesn't survive for a decade or two, and (b) the OS becomes unsupported and will refuse to run. One of the reasons for businesses to support Android/iOS apps is that the universe of possible operating environments is much smaller, and tightly controlled.

I'd like to see the BSDs collectively work together on a vision that keeps BSD as a strong option for surfing.
Let me give you a few nasty, cold hard facts. The market share of *BSD in desktop usage is at most a percent, probably smaller by a factor of 10 or 100. Even the market share of Linux is in the single-digit percents. The FreeBSD project has a small number of developers, which can be measured in dozens or low hundreds. The vast majority of them are unpaid.

In contrast, the teams for Chrome (at Google), Safari (at Apple) and Edge (at MS) have thousands of developers.

What you are proposing is a massive case of "tail wagging dog". No, FreeBSD can not hire an extra thousand software engineers to build a really good browser. And even if it did (if some generous person was willing to donate $250M per year), the website owners would ignore it, because their new BSD browser would be used by such a small number of users.

Let's begin by accepting reality: Two desktop OSes (Windows and Mac) and three browsers (Chrome, Safari, and Edge/IE) are de-facto the only things that exist today.

Similar with desktop monitors - read comments in forum that 24" display is very small, he wants 27" or even 32". And in the same time uses his smartphone all day to browse... 24" is not comfortable but 7" is.
That's actually an interesting technical discussion. I think ultimately, it is not about display size, but about display resolution (information density). A modern desktop display can render at least 2K x 1.5K pixels; many of the larger ones are about 1.5x or 2x higher resolution per axis. A modern smartphone display has a similar resolution, with a slightly different aspect ratio (typically 2.5K x 1.2K pixels). That's why browsing on a phone is viable: It can deliver the same amount of information to the user; the user just needs to focus their eyes at a smaller distance.

For people my age it comes down to: What glasses do I wear (and yes, I have separate glasses for cell phones, books, laptop, desktop monitor, and driving a car).

I insist: we are experiencing the decadence of web browsing. Only smartphone browsing will remain.
That could easily happen. And it might be a good thing: A single platform and method for delivering information to human users. It can be delivered on a 5" device (smartphone), a 10" device (tablet), and a 20-30" device (desktop monitor), all using the same software. I know that some of my colleagues are today already using remote displays on their smartphone, so they can see their phone's screen on their desktop monitor.

Nope. In the beginning of the WWW bandwidth was the issue - we all used analog modems to connect to it.
Not quite. Consumers and amateurs used analog modems to connect to the web. Early on (in the early and mid 90s), the bulk of web usage was in offices. The web was designed to deliver information over a LAN (at CERN, by Tim Berners-Lee), and at that time, all machines at CERN had "fast" networks (in those days, that means 10base2, using BNC connectors and coax cables). The first web server outside of Switzerland was set up at SLAC in December 1991 (I started working there in November that year), and at that time we already had a "fast" connection between SLAC and CERN, I think 512 kilobits/s.

The web was initially designed to work in environment with sufficient bandwidth, and sufficient CPU/graphics power to display it. As it spread (from the hallways of academia and research to consumers), it co-developed with mechanisms to deliver bandwidth and graphics to its users. The use of the web over analog modems (56 kBaud) was probably the low point in the mismatch between the needs and the resources.

Also the amount of data is not necessarily the issue, but in how many different files from different server it comes is an issue. Latency is what nowadays makes web pages slow.
Correct analysis. With rare exceptions. For example, here in Northern California we had some nasty storms in the last week, and our house (which is in the hills near Silicon Valley) was without electricity for 5 days, without phone and (wired) internet for 3 days, and without normal road access for about a day or two. During that time, cell phone bandwidth dropped really low (probably dozens of kilobits/s, and intermittent), and even things like looking at the weather forecast or the road closure maps became difficult or impossible. Fortunately, the design of our communications infrastructure has redundancy built into it, and SMS and e-mails continued to work, slowly but reliably.
 
In contrast, the teams for Chrome (at Google), Safari (at Apple) and Edge (at MS) have thousands of developers.
Not sure whether this is true but if a web browser needs 1000+ developers (!) then it is a monster without future. The web browser is very complex thing but I cannot see what work will do 900 of these 1000 programmers most time. If they re-write the browser every month starting from zero, then ok - maybe they are really busy.
 
console/debugging and adblock are sorely missing on mobiles and thus they will never be able to replace proper web browsers.
Just root or jailbreak the phone...
Which I simply disagree with. I could be wrong, heck ask the wife and I'm never right, but in this space I think I'm correct.
I do think that OP has a realistic assessment that the future is the smartphone... try lugging around a stereo player, video camera, Polaroid camera, stopwatch/timer, alarm clock/radio, paper notebook, calculator, a wallet stuffed with cash/passes/membership cards/tickets that are frayed around the edges and borderline unreadable, laptop (to 'quickly' check on news/wikipedia/weather forecast/snow forecast/surf forecast/bank balance). Oh, add in the HUGE collection of tapes that needs to be carefully curated to hold the amount of music that frankly fits on a microSD card these days. And if you want to give your friend a copy of that fascinating book you're reading... and what if the audio cable on your headphones got busted because you didn't pack it right? And what if all that stuff got wet? Or if you lost something from that set?

Browsers, IMHO, have become the 'secret sauce' to access places like Slack and Discord from just about any OS (FreeBSD, Android, Windows, Mac, iphone, and even OpenBSD/NetBSD). Yeah, it does take a lot of RAM and processing speed on your end of things just to have functional access. Some parts of the overall data pathway are just out of our hands...
 
According to research, websites currently load twice as slow on the average mobile phone as they did 8 years ago. According to research, there is no real difference on desktops compared to 8 years ago, websites load on current desktops about as fast as before. The conclusion of this story is that in terms of surf performance, desktops have now become better than mobile phones.
Got a link to that I'm curious
 
The main problem with web pages is not that they are too complex. The main problem is JavaScript. Everything now includes JS - it is "modern". Why loading static pages or server side (php, etc.) when we can load some KB (or MB) of JS, then it will load parts of web page from web services. Slow speed? Not a problem, more important is modern programming. The satisfaction of programmer (of his excellent work) is much more important than client needs.
 

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The main problem with web pages is not that they are too complex. The main problem is JavaScript. Everything now includes JS - it is "modern". Why loading static pages or server side (php, etc.) when we can load some KB (or MB) of JS, then it will load parts of web page from web services.
The aim is to outsource work to the client. Since runtime on clients is free
for those that run the servers, they do not care how much they charge
the client (for unnecessary features), on the quality of their programs.
 
The satisfaction of programmer (of his excellent work) is much more important than client needs.
Writing AJAX is not satisfying, but it can make for a make better user experience in the web browser. It also means (potentially) faster web-sites - you don't have to load everything up-front.

But then the web browsers become bloated as they end up being mini-operating systems.

And some people go to town with their website designs/functionality.

But it's not all down to over-clever programmers.
 
The main problem with web pages is not that they are too complex.

This is correct.

The main problem is JavaScript. Everything now includes JS

This is not. You can have snappy pages that use javascript but, as you said in your previous comment, marketing wants whiz bang effects and user data which all bogs down any web page.

Worse is the fact that even the small site developer reads a reddit headline and gets hooked into a meme of "you can't do ANYTHING without React AND Angular AND Node AND Tailwind cause EVERYBODY USES THEM!!! and you will DIE if you don't!!!!
 
6502 said:

The main problem with web pages is not that they are too complex.


This is correct.


6502 said:

The main problem is JavaScript. Everything now includes JS
This is not. You can have snappy pages that use javascript but, as you said in your previous comment, marketing wants whiz bang effects and user data which all bogs down any web page.

Worse is the fact that even the small site developer reads a reddit headline and gets hooked into a meme of "you can't do ANYTHING without React AND Angular AND Node AND Tailwind cause EVERYBODY USES THEM!!! and you will DIE if you don't!!!!

Vull says:

ECMAScript/Javascript/jscript is good for much more than just snappy look-and-feel and whiz bang effects. In commercial/business applications, rather than bogging down web pages, ECMAScript can, instead, cut down on network traffic substantially. For example, Using HTML forms only, if I wanted to display a customer's name, address, and phone number when he or she typed in a customer number, in a long complicated form, I'd have to reload every bit of data and every widget on the page, just to display those few changes, but using ECMAScript and xmlHttpRequest to manipulate the document object model, I can modify only those widgets that contain the customer's name and address info. The updates will be smoother, avoiding the types of monitor flashes you see when you reload the whole page multiple times to display tiny changes. Sensitive data like credit card numbers and personal info won't have to be transmitted over the network nearly so many times.
 
Lately i wanted to read my yahoo mails with the "elinks" browser. It was a no-go.
Firefox works good on my Rapsberry PI 4. I can view 99% of all webpages.
I have also luakit & otterbrowser.

Ironically, the same with this very site. It used to work with elinks/w3m etc. but no more.
 
Vull Yes it can when used properly but his and my complaint is JS is too often used because they can and not because they should. I've even found web clients whose previous developers downloaded javascript because it was part of their framework but they didn't use any of it. Others came to me asking for whiz bang features without a reason for using those effects but Microsoft did it so it had to be good. (Right?)
 
I do think that OP has a realistic assessment that the future is the smartphone... try lugging around a stereo player, video camera, Polaroid camera, stopwatch/timer, alarm clock/radio, paper notebook, calculator, a wallet stuffed with cash/passes/membership cards/tickets that are frayed around the edges and borderline unreadable, laptop (to 'quickly' check on news/wikipedia/weather forecast/snow forecast/surf forecast/bank balance).
Wrong, in terms of web pages the smartphone is not the future, but since years the most important platform in terms of devices and user base. This is the reason why many modern pages are designed with mobile first on mind.

And this is why Facebook now looks so funny on the desktop as it does nowadays.
 
And this is what makes the trend, the future.
Wrong, "mobile first" is not the future, but the present! So this is not a trend any longer, but the status quo!

It's also the reason why e.g. YouTube offers videos in normal film format, but TikTok is geared towards the normal smart phone orientation which really looks silly on normal screens.
 
Wrong, "mobile first" is not the future, but the present! So this is not a trend any longer, but the status quo!

It's also the reason why e.g. YouTube offers videos in normal film format, but TikTok is geared towards the normal smart phone orientation which really looks silly on normal screens.
Youtube already has a pretty functional app straight from Google that is offered by default on many smartphones on the market today... I tried it, and for a lazy way to watch YT without a laptop/TV, it's not bad at all. ?‍?

These days, one is expected to be able to use the smartphone for just about everything, but not everybody got their act together about that. For example, airlines like Delta and Hawaiian did get their act together, and their gates actually have proper scanner hardware where you can scan an app-generated QR code, and be on your way. Contrast that with a mom-and-pop gas station just 10 miles away from the airport - that shop is still struggling to line up magnetic stripe readers, and will often take cash when the readers break. Just one example, there's plenty others. This is why I agree with OP's assessment that smartphone IS the future... it's just a bit closer than it used to be.
 
Youtube already has a pretty functional app straight from Google that is offered by default on many smartphones on the market today... I tried it, and for a lazy way to watch YT without a laptop/TV, it's not bad at all. ?‍?

Usually no adblocking, though.
 
Usually no adblocking, though.
With ads being embedded straight into the video being played, that's a problem across the board, really. I do keep my eyes peeled for a solution, but AFAICT, there's nothing in sight... It would take reverse-engineering the very video format, and replacing the ad with a 'Your video is now loading' animation. That would take extra processing cycles on your device, too. At this point, browsers have nothing to do with ads any more, ads have infiltrated the very data we're after. ?
 
With ads being embedded straight into the video being played, that's a problem across the board, really. I do keep my eyes peeled for a solution, but AFAICT, there's nothing in sight... It would take reverse-engineering the very video format, and replacing the ad with a 'Your video is now loading' animation. That would take extra processing cycles on your device, too. At this point, browsers have nothing to do with ads any more, ads have infiltrated the very data we're after. ?
No, adblock+ kills Youtube ads just fine in a desktop browser.
 
since years the most important platform in terms of devices and user base. This is the reason why many modern pages are designed with mobile first on mind.

The purpose of the "mobile first" methodology was to make design easier, not because mobile was more important. It's far easier to scale up a display as your screen gets bigger and you have more room to work with. My company was doing that long before mobile phones became dominant.


And this is why Facebook now looks so funny on the desktop as it does nowadays.

I would think that is bad or lazy developers.
 
Vull Yes it can when used properly but his and my complaint is JS is too often used because they can and not because they should. I've even found web clients whose previous developers downloaded javascript because it was part of their framework but they didn't use any of it. Others came to me asking for whiz bang features without a reason for using those effects but Microsoft did it so it had to be good. (Right?)
We should avoid using frameworks like JSON and AJAX, or at least I do. I've never used jQuery either, I can handle drag-and-drop without it, but we can't do drag-and-drop without JavaScript.

Edited to add: Mean to say, that includes JSON and AJAX. They can't do drag-and-drop without JavaScript either.
 
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