Spreading FreeBSD

smithi said:
Yep. I've just browsed the last couple of days of this topic, wondering which of the whinging "fix it for me" posts I might respond to, but you cover it better, thanks.
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I usually try no to chime into these types of threads but there's only so much ignorance I can ignore :D
 
hbsd said:
Obviously, I mean natively. any OS can run on the VM.
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Not exactly... According to VirtualBox documentation, only a couple old versions of MacOS X Server can run on VirtualBox. VMWare only supports MacOS 11/12/13 (Recent stuff, but nothing older than 2020)... I wouldn't put it past bhyve to run exactly same stuff as VirtualBox, but I welcome corrections on that account. Oh, and let's not forget the time Macs actually ran on Intel processors between 2006 and 2020 ?
 
hbsd said:
Obviously, I mean natively. any OS can run on the VM.
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Well, AFAIK with macOS is not that simple as with Windows/Linux/BSD etc.
astyle said:
Not exactly... According to VirtualBox documentation, only a couple old versions of MacOS X Server can run on VirtualBox.
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Indeed, it requires USB3 emulation for mouse and keybord to work, and on FreeBSD Virtualbox is limited to USB1.1 due to the fact that the Extension pack is not available for FreeBSD.
astyle said:
I wouldn't put it past bhyve to run exactly same stuff as VirtualBox, but I welcome corrections on that account.
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Bhyve doesn't support it natively (most recent attempt I found) as Virtualbox does on macOS itself and with some tricks on Windows/Linux, and in qemu (if able to run it) I don't believe has very good performance.
 
driker said:
What ways would you all say would be good to spread the reach of FreeBSD to more users?
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Sure I think that is a fine idea. For myself I don't talk about FreeBSD or any other type of FOSS with people. Most non-nerds are not that interested in alternative ways of using their PCs. They just want a computer that works with minimal fuss.
 
hitest said:
Sure I think that is a fine idea. For myself I don't talk about FreeBSD or any other type of FOSS with people. Most non-nerds are not that interested in alternative ways of using their PCs. They just want a computer that works with minimal fuss.
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yeah, FreeBSD is a ton of fuss, you gotta have a certain tolerance towards problem-solving when things don't work. I enjoy FreeBSD because I can savor the results of hours of problem-solving.
 
astyle said:
yeah, FreeBSD is a ton of fuss, you gotta have a certain tolerance towards problem-solving when things don't work. I enjoy FreeBSD because I can savor the results of hours of problem-solving.
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I must politely disagree. I have found FreeBSD to be very straight forward. However I think it depends on your use case. In that respect I could imagine running into some complex problems.
 
astyle said:
I enjoy FreeBSD because I can savor the results of hours of problem-solving.
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Same here! Like you I enjoy tinkering and have fun when things break or fail to work as expected. However, I've learned that not everyone shares that point of view. Live and let live. :)
 
astyle said:
yeah, FreeBSD is a ton of fuss, you gotta have a certain tolerance towards problem-solving when things don't work. I enjoy FreeBSD because I can savor the results of hours of problem-solving.
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Being open to problem-solving is a good character trait if you work in the IT-business. FreeBSD has the adavantage of clarity, which makes problem solving relatively easy. Other operating systems lack this clarity and burden the user with unsurmountable tasks in the case of failure.

I don't talk about setting up your window manager or getting your WIFI to work. I talk about production use when failure is not an option. (and if it happens, it should be fixed).
 
LibreQuest said:
I must politely disagree. I have found FreeBSD to be very straight forward. However I think it depends on your use case. In that respect I could imagine running into some complex problems.
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My use cases vary... getting wifi to work on FreeBSD is not a trivial matter, and is still a pain point. Also, web browsers are quite unstable. I spent a few weeks trying to learn about jails and rctl. Finally put something together, only to discover that it doesn't work as expected. This is why I'm saying, FreeBSD is a ton of fuss. Being unable to do basic web research for FreeBSD-related problem solving is quite the showstopper for me.
 
Here's something a programmer can do. Create something popular that only runs on FreeBSD. Be it a game or some productivity or business tool, it doesn't matter. If it solves someone's problem or itch, they'll get FreeBSD to use it. But it can't run on Linux or Windows at all! OK, maybe in a vm but they need to install FreeBSD still.
 
drhowarddrfine said:
Here's something a programmer can do. Create something popular that only runs on FreeBSD. Be it a game or some productivity or business tool, it doesn't matter. If it solves someone's problem or itch, they'll get FreeBSD to use it. But it can't run on Linux or Windows at all! OK, maybe in a vm but they need to install FreeBSD still.
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If it gets popular, somebody with enough brains will port it to Linux and Windows... and it would be a matter of when, not if. In all honesty, this does sound a bit like taking a page out of Apple/Windows playbook.
 
drhowarddrfine said:
Let's not lose sight of the fact that you can run almost all Linux software on FreeBSD through the linuxulator or a VM.
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I have been playing The Witcher Wild Hunt on FreeBSD 13.2-RC5, but I was playing GOG's 4.1 patch, I needed to install the new patch, so I used my phone, downloaded the offline installers, install failed, repeated the steps more carefully tried it again, and it failed as well, then thought about the lunuxulator browser installer.
Set it up, and within the linuxulator chroot installed Lutris, it installed the 4.2 patch for me.

So if that works I imagine many more software will.
 
hitest said:
They just want a computer that works with minimal fuss.
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Even more, more and more people find anything with a keyboard and mouse annoying and cumbersome. If I have a phone/tablet to poke, why I should use that stone age device?
I've worked in a vocational school (teaching electricity and automation) and it's incredible how the new generations avoid any kind of "complexity". For them Windows/Office it's complicated and unnecessary, they prefer an app that gives them everything done and thought out.

And is not only a problem of new generations, most of my colleagues use the computer and software in a very superficial way. They could be much more productive if they invest some time to know the software in detail, but there is no time (the work need to be done quickly) and no interest.
 
drhowarddrfine said:
Create something popular that only runs on FreeBSD.
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What a wonderful idea to make people angry. What would be the consequences? They’d popup here lamenting why does app X and app Y is not available and my gadget does not connect either?

I’d be happy to tell them that the genius who masterminded this is drhowarddrfine and he will fix it.

The last thing FreeBSD needs is a larger number of dissatisfied users, because the reputation of the “brand” would accelerate downhill.

What FreeBSD needs badly is an increasing number of developers and port maintainers. What is actually being done to achieve this?

Our community lacks people with knowledge and capabilities who are willing to contribute. What is the community actively doing to attract and educate those who could fill the gap?

Popularity is not a solution but a burden of our time.
 
drhowarddrfine said:
Create something popular that only runs on FreeBSD.
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drhowarddrfine said:
it can't run on Linux or Windows at all!
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astyle said:
If it gets popular, somebody with enough brains will port it to Linux and Windows
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astyle I have nothing to do with this discussion and I don't agree/disagree. But drhowarddrfine meant that the software should be proprietary, not open source. You can't port the proprietary software to another OS.
 
getopt said:
What a wonderful idea to make people angry.
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How angry do you get that so much software is Linux only and you need to port it to make it work on FreeBSD--if it can be made to work at all? Does anyone feel sorry for us?

My point is, people say they want FreeBSD to become more popular and used. You do that by giving people a reason to run FreeBSD.
 
drhowarddrfine said:
If it solves someone's problem or itch, they'll get FreeBSD to use it. But it can't run on Linux or Windows at all!
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I kind of already have experienced this with a level editor I maintain. I only support Windows and OpenBSD (they are the only platforms I run graphics on). I get so many PRs for a Linux build so I take the opportunity to suggest people just use OpenBSD if they want to run the tool. Partial trolling by me perhaps but it seems to be completely OK when large companies recommend that.

The interesting thing is that if I only supported Windows and not OpenBSD, I imagine I would receive a lot less Linux PRs. Either they don't like that it is "so close" but not quite, or they just try to run the binaries anyway and get disappointed when it doesn't work because Linux doesn't have a decent BSD compat.
 
I think most average users switch from windows to Linux because Linux can run programs that windows can run and not because Linux runs programs that windows can't. I just don't think that's a reality for average users.

And what that has to do with FreeBSD I don't know.

I am using FreeBSD partially because of this mentality on Linux. So to me this is a wasted thought exorcize.

The BSD license is permissive to where you are free to use the system and work to make it windows like or Linux like if you have that goal.

I think you'll have better luck selling popsicles in Antarctica over pitching this idea here.
 
In my case I've switched from Windows to Linux because I'd had enough of Windows and Linux has viable alternatives to Windows programs.
And I'm here because Linux world is a mess, and I don't like the feeling that if my system broke, I will need to deal with partial or no documentation at all (a list of steps without no explanation about what are you doing is not documentation) and tons of comments (mostly outdated) in forums.

But I really don't know how to attract more developers... the advantages/disadvantages of FreeBSD are clear and, for me, it's a mystery why people (developers) prefer to add other Linux distribution to the world rather than collaborate in a mature system like any BSD.
 
getopt said:
What FreeBSD needs badly is an increasing number of developers and port maintainers. What is actually being done to achieve this?
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Golden question here. This is one of many reasons why I think the committers (or the FreeBSD desktop team) should ship and maintain a stable desktop release. Call it FreeBSD 13.1-DESKTOP, or something. That way anyone with any lick of curiosity can just download the iso, install, and quickly get a hacking environment running. No fuss or tweaking required. Throw a browser, mail client, and text editor in there and they can get started with hacking and/or communicate with the developer community. The Debian guys seem to be successful with this. Hell, it might even encourage more general users to try it out; thus more developer demand. For those who to customize their desktop can still just use the main vanilla installer.
 
Beastie7 said:
Golden question here. This is one of many reasons why I think the committers (or the FreeBSD desktop team) should ship and maintain a stable desktop release. Call it FreeBSD 13.1-DESKTOP, or something. That way anyone with any lick of curiosity can just download the iso, install, and quickly get a hacking environment running. No fuss or tweaking required. Throw a browser, mail client, and text editor in there and they can get started with hacking and/or communicate with the developer community. The Debian guys seem to be successful with this. Hell, it might even encourage more general users to try it out; thus more developer demand. For those who to customize their desktop can still just use the main vanilla installer.
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I'm pretty sure it's called GhostBSD.
 
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