Spreading FreeBSD

zirias@ said:
Sir, sorry, I have the impression that this spoon isn't suitable for tomato soup, so I used a different brand just to be sure. Now fix the design of that spoon!
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the spoon isn't real


side note: if the "system" can figure out what to put in the hints on other things then why can it NOT do that for speakers and headphones? it has wifi but not a manager, bluetooth but nothing to eaily get that to work with earbuds aka some kind of Bluetooth sound device. and I don't even know abot the USB hot plug capabilities but this OS hasn't been around long enough to be compatible with all of the latest tech like WiFi and Bluetooth and hot plugin devices etc
 
userxbw said:
the same can be said about you and I am a novelty user not a developer that knows the in and out of freeBSD
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Yes the same can be said of anyone. And that's how projects work.

There are other ways to contribute. There is usability feedback and bug reports.

Feature requests are a bit tricky and can take years for a single dev. Any change will typically create dozens of code changes to support the new feature. So these things take time. There are also dependencies for most projects and these dependencies change requiring old code to be ported to a new library or back end. This is a lot of time consuming work that requires dedication and testing prior to general availability. Unless you're on Linux and they just throw it out there.

Though the same could be said for me, I really can't complain. I have had a most satisfactory experience as a user of FreeBSD. I am impressed with the system myself.

It is rather often that many of the usability goals of projects prove to be vanity over time. I would say that FreeBSD has realistic goals that will prove to be worth the efforts. That's what I have gathered so far.

edit: I really don't mean to discourage any creativity. I do however hope that these chrome os type goals are very very far from the goals of FreeBSD. I would hate to see such a solid system go that route.
 
userxbw said:
OS hasn't been around long enough to be compatible with all of the latest tech like WiFi and Bluetooth and hot plugin devices etc
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Ummm... FreeBSD has been around since 1993. Bluetooth has been around since 1998. The latter didn't become ubiquitous and common until late 2000's.

FreeBSD supports hot-plugging of USB keyboards and mice no problem. I don't have my notes with me, but if memory serves me, I stopped having to kldload usb.ko (probably not even a real command/kernel module) back at 11-RELEASE.

Edit: I do have a laptop with 13.1-RELEASE (Lenovo IdeaPad 720s-13ARR with an aftermarket Intel wifi card that actually works), but I haven't tried Bluetooth part of it. My take on Bluetooth/wifi is that the software part can be improved. Data can flow, but automation of circuitry selection for that flow leaves a lot to be desired.
 
drhowarddrfine said:
Let's not lose sight of the fact that you can run almost all Linux software on FreeBSD through the linuxulator or a VM.
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The fact that we need syscall emulation, compatibility layers, or virtual machines to run third party applications is the problem; which constitutes to the original post. The entire open source desktop and application ecosystem relies heavily on upstream Linux. FreeBSD has no direct application or hardware support from ISVs/IHVs (with regards to the desktop). That's precisely the problem. FreeBSD is useless as a functional desktop; it is a server and embedded system. To say otherwise is being disingenuous. Telling the average mere mortal to jungle through CLI configuration and/or post-mortem configuration to have a functioning desktop is asinine.

My recommendation is to just use macOS. It is BSD Unix on the desktop. But hey, if you're emotionally tied to a license or software masochism, be my guest.
 
zirias@ said:
I don't agree, and don't think that's a realistic hope for the following reasons:
  • There are different definitions of "easy". FreeBSD installation is easy, as in: there's almost no complexity in the process. It involves several steps, a) because ports are kept strictly separate from the base system and b) because the design principles (POLA) don't allow any "hidden magic" to happen. Therefore, doing it the first time, you will certainly need the handbook. Still, this is "easy", it's as straight-forward and transparent as it can possibly get.
  • For a very different definition of "easy" that involves clickable GUIs and "magic" like automated configurations, you'd probably expect everything up to a fully configured desktop system handled by one single installer tool. That's already problematic, as you'd have to tie together base and ports. Doesn't mean it would be impossible, but it would introduce a lot of unnecessary complexity, another thing that's pretty much against the FreeBSD ideas.
  • Even then, users would probably just run into a wall once they need to "maintain" their system, as they never had the transparency during install, so they have no idea how it really works. So, the next idea would be to even extend the magic, providing "management tools", further spoiling what IMHO makes FreeBSD great.
  • Once you've done all that, maybe you'll have a few more desktop users. At the same time, you have alienated experienced administrators. And talking about developers/contributors, you'll have more or less the same people, under the optimistic assumption that these people are willing to dig through all the "magic" layers to gain enough understanding of the system to actually work on it.
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These are reasons I switched from NomadBSD to pure FreeBSD. It is also why I am in the process of migrating from XFCE to JWM. XFCE was doing too many things "automagically" and I want to have more knowledge of how my system works. As an additional bonus, I have been inspired to start learning TCL/TK in an attempt to write some GUI tools to modify JWM's xml file. I might not be successful, but the learning will be worth it. To me, that is one of the beauties of FreeBSD, and should be promoted as one of the strengths rather than calling to hide all the learning behind mystical configuration utilities.
 
driker said:
What ways would you all say would be good to spread the reach of FreeBSD to more users? More users could bring with it more developers and hardware manufacturers. This could mean better hardware support and more software aimed for the OS. Here are my thoughts:

1. Friendlier atmosphere. I've noticed some of the developers and administrators tend to have a negative view and response to users. (You know who you are. ;)).
2. Something like a settings screen. Even a terminal based one to start. Instead of having to go through configuration files or commands and reading man pages. Settings in one location. I know when I first started this took a lot of trial and error.
3. Faster boot times. I know waiting on dhclient has slowed my boot times down and attempting to switch it to run in the background doesn't always seem to work.

Before I hear something along the lines of "If only someone was intrepid enough to work on these things.". Yes, I am aware they need someone to work on them. My thoughts are, if there's a list, I could work on what I can and maybe others who want to can work on what they can
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A troubleshooting flowchart for all errors that may occur during initial
boot for a DHCP connection [ each file required, etc... ] if ethernet used.
................
a storfront selling a dongle guaranteed to work and specific files, if need
be, to accompany its setup and a flowchart for error messages that may occur after installation.
........
A place to discuss buildworld-installworld failings, there used to be forum threads and/or mailing lists and more people running current
and stable but that has become sparse and/or not often discussed vs
the distant past.
......
an Ecotank or MFP or something likewise guaranteed to work and maybe sold thru a storefront or a group advocating for FreeBSD. For
instance, HP 283fdw, MPC-L3770cdw, M283fdw, hp ... 251mw...
the printer would sell the OS since that is often one of the primary needs for desktop users. I, financially and due to time constraints,
find it inopportune to buy and return 3 or 4 til one more or less
works with minimal setup and concise instructions, simple front of
page color printing.
....
I feel laptop usage and ZFS discussions are impeding the
simpler, more economical use cases I had during the years
2007-2010, for example. [ Maybe just me ]. ... being available
to new users from Linux, Windows, Mac, ...
 
jardows said:
I might not be successful, but the learning will be worth it. To me, that is one of the beauties of FreeBSD, and should be promoted as one of the strengths rather than calling to hide all the learning behind mystical configuration utilities.
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Amen.
 
jb_fvwm2 said:
A troubleshooting flowchart for all errors that may occur during initial
boot for a DHCP connection [ each file required, etc... ] if ethernet used.
................
a storfront selling a dongle guaranteed to work and specific files, if need
be, to accompany its setup and a flowchart for error messages that may occur after installation.
........
A place to discuss buildworld-installworld failings, there used to be forum threads and/or mailing lists and more people running current
and stable but that has become sparse and/or not often discussed vs
the distant past.
......
an Ecotank or MFP or something likewise guaranteed to work and maybe sold thru a storefront or a group advocating for FreeBSD. For
instance, HP 283fdw, MPC-L3770cdw, M283fdw, hp ... 251mw...
the printer would sell the OS since that is often one of the primary needs for desktop users. I, financially and due to time constraints,
find it inopportune to buy and return 3 or 4 til one more or less
works with minimal setup and concise instructions, simple front of
page color printing.
....
I feel laptop usage and ZFS discussions are impeding the
simpler, more economical use cases I had during the years
2007-2010, for example. [ Maybe just me ]. ... being available
to new users from Linux, Windows, Mac, ...
Click to expand...
I don't see any reason why these topics can't be covered here or revived here if there are prior posts.

And the store front idea is really great, perhaps an opportunity for a FreeBSD user to start a website or blog that can promote tested hardware

Although, I do recall seeing a list of tested hardware. Though it was obviously not definitive.
 
Beastie7 said:
My recommendation is to just use macOS. It is BSD Unix on the desktop.
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Only it is not, some userland tools coming from FreeBSD do not change the fact. Other than that, macOS is a joke, "to have a smooth mouse scroll, there's a program written by John Doe, and it's only $5 a month", sorry, no (that applies to the whole ecosystem).
Beastie7 said:
FreeBSD has no direct application or hardware support from ISVs/IHVs (with regards to the desktop).
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Linux is not much different, and it became just as complex as Windows (if not worse), with duplicate functionality added continuously to all of the tools, with "that previous solution that was supposed to fix all our problems did not work; we should create new one instead of improving it" attitude.

For me, if I want a real desktop with real support from vendors, I use Windows 11 (yeah, I know, telemetry and all that, but I didn't buy 4090 to spend endless hours trying to run games in linux); and if I want a graphical environment that I do understand, where I can fix (or at least try to fix) the issues I'm encountering, it's FreeBSD.
 
jb_fvwm2 said:
I feel laptop usage and ZFS discussions are impeding the
simpler, more economical use cases I had during the years
2007-2010, for example. [ Maybe just me ]. ... being available
to new users from Linux, Windows, Mac, ...
Click to expand...
These Forums do have sections for discussions of simpler use cases like desktop setup (Heck, we have a whole category called 'Desktop Usage') ... The way I see it, discussion on specific components like ZFS and bhyve just seem to have more active threads...
 
astyle said:
Ummm... FreeBSD has been around since 1993. Bluetooth has been around since 1998. The latter didn't become ubiquitous and common until late 2000's.

FreeBSD supports hot-plugging of USB keyboards and mice no problem. I don't have my notes with me, but if memory serves me, I stopped having to kldload usb.ko (probably not even a real command/kernel module) back at 11-RELEASE.

Edit: I do have a laptop with 13.1-RELEASE (Lenovo IdeaPad 720s-13ARR with an aftermarket Intel wifi card that actually works), but I haven't tried Bluetooth part of it. My take on Bluetooth/wifi is that the software part can be improved. Data can flow, but automation of circuitry selection for that flow leaves a lot to be desired.
Click to expand...
While FreeBSD does support Bluetooth, the support has historically been more limited and less mature than on some other platforms. Bluetooth support on FreeBSD has been in development since the early 2000s, and it has improved over time. However, as you noted, the software part can still be improved, especially when it comes to automating circuitry selection for data flow.
 
Argentum said:
While FreeBSD does support Bluetooth, the support has historically been more limited and less mature than on some other platforms. Bluetooth support on FreeBSD has been in development since the early 2000s, and it has improved over time. However, as you noted, the software part can still be improved, especially when it comes to automating circuitry selection for data flow.
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I found a post on how to setup BT when through the entire thing got my earbuds to connect one time and that was it. then tehre is the okay now how do I get sound from the system to the earbuds issue I never figured out then just plugged my headset back in and no more ear buds.

why is it seemingly harder to get hardware / software to work with BT more than Linux distros?
 
yuripv79 said:
Only it is not, some userland tools coming from FreeBSD do not change the fact.
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it also uses;
  • FreeBSD's process model
  • FreeBSD's security policies (ids, users, groups, permissions, etc.)
  • FreeBSD's POSIX API, and system calls
  • FreeBSD's sockets and protocol stack
  • FreeBSD's virtual file system code
  • FreeBSD's MAC Framework
  • FreeBSD's Locking primitives
  • FreeBSD's kqueue/kevent
  • FreeBSD's Dtrace implementation
  • FreeBSD's OpenCrypto Framework
  • FreeBSD's LLVM/Clang Port

macOS's XNU kernel, is a BSD Unix kernel.

yuripv79 said:
Other than that, macOS is a joke, "to have a smooth mouse scroll, there's a program written by John Doe, and it's only $5 a month", sorry, no (that applies to the whole ecosystem).
Click to expand...

The only joke here; is your experience and knowledge with macOS. There's a reason why a lot of the committers are using MacBooks.
 
Beastie7 said:
The only joke here; is your experience and knowledge with macOS.
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Uhm, lol? I had more than enough opportunities to test this ... "thing". I hated it almost always.

But more importantly: I'd always prefer Windows over MacOS. At least, Microsoft offers a freely available SDK, allowing everyone to compile their software for their platform. Apple even tries to make $$$ with that.
 
Beastie7 said:
FreeBSD is useless as a functional desktop; it is a server and embedded system. To say otherwise is being disingenuous. Telling the average mere mortal to jungle through CLI configuration and/or post-mortem configuration to have a functioning desktop is asinine.
Click to expand...
I think the point that you are missing is that everybody here that is pro FreeBSD desktop is saying exactly that: If it is not for you then that's okay - just move on and use something else.
Nobody is trying to say that "average mere mortals" should definitely use FreeBSD on a desktop.

Using FreeBSD on a desktop is a choice just as it is to use FreeBSD on a server or to use Linux, Windows or MacOS. If it is not for you that is completely okay. Everybody gets to make their own choices. What is a problem is people showing up demanding changes on a system just so it fits them justifying it with reasons that are clearly either out of the scope or the exact opposite of the scope of a project such as FreeBSD.

Not having to deal with all the clutter such as graphical installers, automatic audio wizzardry and "oh yeah, lets just load this firmware to use bluetooth" are the reason we use FreeBSD as a desktop. There is nothing wrong with that just as there is nothing wrong with using another OS for your desktop. The difference is that we don't go around telling Linux, Windows or MacOS to change things to fit our needs. We sometimes state what we don't like about it but that's it. What we are observing here is people making demands and foolish statements rather than just not using it if it is not for them.
 
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zirias@ said:
Uhm, lol? I had more than enough opportunities to test this ... "thing". I hated it almost always.

But more importantly: I'd always prefer Windows over MacOS. At least, Microsoft offers a freely available SDK, allowing everyone to compile their software for their platform. Apple even tries to make $$$ with that.
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I think the most stupid thing about the macOS is that you have to have an Apple computer to run it.
 
jbo said:
Using FreeBSD on a desktop is a choice just as it is to use FreeBSD on a server or to use Linux, Windows or MacOS. If it is not for you that is completely okay. Everybody gets to make their own choices.
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You'd think that would be obvious.

jbo said:
What is a problem is people showing up demanding changes on a system just so it fits them justifying it with reasons that are clearly either out of the scope or the exact opposite of the scope of a project such as FreeBSD.
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Yep. I've just browsed the last couple of days of this topic, wondering which of the whinging "fix it for me" posts I might respond to, but you cover it better, thanks.

jbo said:
Not having to deal with all the clutter such as graphical installers, automatic audio wizzardry and "oh yeah, lets just load this firmware to use bluetooth" are the reason most people are use FreeBSD as a desktop.
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I've used Freebsd on the
desklaptop since ~2003, plus 5 years before on servers, admittedly from a programming background, where I expect to find some challenges needing solving, likely requiring some study, research and testing.

The idea of making Freebsd more like Linux, let alone Windows or MacOS, horrifies me. The notion that having more naive users improves any system I find ... naive; it just means more time spent hand-holding and so less time and energy developing.

This thread has shown that a) Misery Loves Company and b) Common Sense Isn't.

jbo said:
There is nothing wrong with that just as there is nothing wrong with using another OS for your desktop. The difference is that we don't go around telling Linux, Windows or MacOS to change things to fit our needs. We sometimes state what we don't like about it but that's it.
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Yes it's strange, as if it would be our loss if they moved to something that better suits their needs / desires.

jbo said:
What we are observing here is people making demands and foolish statements rather than just not using it if it is not for them.
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That's just it, in a nutshell.
 
astyle said:
not even a VM, but straight-up metal from Apple?
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You can vm Mac os. There are even pre configured images available. But why? As long as I've used unix-like systems you could vm Mac operating systems. Even the old systems. Basilisk II and SheepShaver are for the older systems and VirtuaBox can emulate Mac hardware, as far as I know. Maybe they have changed something?
 
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