Raspberry Pi - make Tier 1

mark_j

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Yes, I've been hearing about the Arm architecture moving to servers for about 10 years now. I no longer believe that it will happen, because it seems to always be forecast for "next year". In the last 10 years, all non-x86 server architectures have died one by one, and today even PowerPC is barely hanging on. Instead, we now have a healthy competition between AMD and Intel (with AMD making significant inroads), which is causing their chips to suddenly get much better. If one looks at the roadmaps for server CPUs, there has been a significant acceleration in the last 5-7 years, and it is simply because (a) AMD is trying to make an end-run around Intel, and (b) Intel is actually paying attention to improvements, because for the first time they have competition. This leap forward makes it harder for alternate server architectures (Arm, PowerPC) to make headway.
Then you need to look at AWS - https://aws.amazon.com/ec2/instance-types/a1/
I don't care at all about respect.
Well fortunate that you're not in core, then.

As a final statement, I don't believe anyone here has stated an RPi4 is a server, as in a business class/enterprise rack space server. However, as a home hobbyist server running nextcloud/nas/http/squid etc, it's a great little device.

The issue, you and other anti-RPIn people seem to miss is that a LOT of people are being exposed to Linux through these devices. It's a growing community; it's growing much faster than FreeBSD (IMHO). It's now huge in server space, pushed by the likes of Oracle over even Solaris, loved by IBM etc etc. FreeBSD? Still hanging its hat on Yahoo and Netflix? I know in my work experiences, people want to run Squid, for example, they immediately turn to any number of Linux distributions. I push for FreeBSD and I get blank stares.

Dwindling numbers of fans means you'll eventually become something like OpenVMS: a damn fine OS that no one uses.
 

ucomp

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....Well fortunate that you're not in core, then....
the core is not here so it does not have to read destructive posts from users whose nick begins
with e.g. `m` . So they can continue working undisturbed.
forums members can only earn respect, if they learn to respect that some forums members here have a lot more technical expertise than themselves. e.g. the one whose nick begins with 'r' made an excellent explanation , user 'm' failed to respect that(because of the lack of knowledge), that's the way it goes in forums but that doesn't change technical or market-related facts .
 

ucomp

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But would it be good for FreeBSD itself? I really don't know why or whether having lots of Pi users running FreeBSD should be a goal of FreeBSD.
according an interview with the Top Tux-programmer Mr. Poettering, his own community is unbearable in disussions . that community should not be tempted :) the 1st RPI Tier 1 FreeBSD -version therefore should be kept secret 😂
 

mark_j

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Messages: 111

the core is not here so it does not have to read destructive posts from users whose nick begins
with e.g. `m` . So they can continue working undisturbed.
forums members can only earn respect, if they learn to respect that some forums members here have a lot more technical expertise than themselves. e.g. the one whose nick begins with 'r' made an excellent explanation , user 'm' failed to respect that(because of the lack of knowledge), that's the way it goes in forums but that doesn't change technical or market-related facts .
I find your tone obnoxious.
I therefore choose to take no further part in this 'discussion'.
 

UnivProc

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Remember AiX and Solaris? Great OSes.

Gone. Not because they're worse than Linux, but because Linux is good enough and the kids coming from school and university only know Linux, Windows and Mac. Not because Linux is free. No serious company runs an OS without support, and Redhat support is not cheap.

With the Raspberry, FreeBSD would have a good chance to introduce herself to 25 Mio kids and hobbyists.

But an OS for 25 Mio devices has to be secure and updateable.
[/QUOTE]

I mostly agree, with the caveat that security does not really exist on any commercial systems (neither Windows nor Linux are secure - demonstrated by the constant stream of security updates) and I would address the FreeBSD security issue, within instructional environments, with regular, golden-master based, re-flashing of the microSD's (hack to your hearts content, all your hard work will disappear on Tuesday - additionally the value of a compromized RP is almost 0 and they are not attractive targets, in part because there is nothing on them that people will pay to keep and their internet connection schedules are highly variable (not reliable botnet partners)).

Your point about AiX and Solaris is spot-on. Linux is a business, that like heroin, gives away free samples (Fedora) and once hooked, updates users to Redhat. AiX and Solaris were also businesses, but it became too expensive to pay for their independent development when an adequate (the marketplace seldom pays for more than adequate) "free" alternative existed (IBM invested rather heavily in Linux, but less than AiX was costing). The only real challenge to Linux hegemony is its GNU GPL. FreeBSD has a superior licensing model that could give it a chance to flourish, but it probably needs to find a RedHat and/or Cononical that sees the business opportunity.

To ralphnsz's point that custom or traditional embedded systems are more suitable to small solutions I would offer that Linux is exploding in these markets. The cost of a standard, though scaled back Linux version, relative to the alternatives, is 50mB of memory (which costs a quarter, significantly less than a Wind River license, and noise compared to the cost of creating and maintaining a bare-metal solution). This is why Linux, or derivations of Linux, own the small systems space. The issue moving forward have to do with licensing. For performance reasons some embedded application code works better in the OS than running in user space, but the Linux rules require that any changes to the OS be freely distributed.
 

ucomp

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...... Linux... ... Fedora ... Solaris ...
... AiX .... ....Canonical....Windows..RedHat....Linux, or derivations of Linux...
GNU GPL...Linux....Linux...Linux..
...FreeBSD would have a good chance to introduce herself to 25 Mio ... hobbyists.....
25 million RPI-Hooligans who ask 25 million times a day the same questions :
.... all them against only 1 peaceful from Feyenoord ...

no - rejected ;)
 

CraigHB

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Messages: 274

according an interview with the Top Tux-programmer Mr. Poettering, his own community is unbearable in disussions . that community should not be tempted :) the 1st RPI Tier 1 FreeBSD -version therefore should be kept secret 😂
Self proclaimed top Tux programmer? AFAIC, the further FreeBSD can distance itself from that madness the better.
 

BuzzMarshall

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Messages: 10

Personally i just think its a matter of exposure... I at one time all those many years ago started out on the berkeley distro's and eventually started looking and using slackware when it appeared... and to be honest over the many years moving forward in that progression actually don't even remember when i kinda forgot about the bsd's... I've always been a build it from sources type of guy but must admit in that forward progression and the onset of all the linux distro's flooding the market like many others fell prey to the misconception of the bsd's being old and really not pertinent in today's computer scene... funny as it wasn't till i ran into a couple of members here that made me stop and think and actually take a look at the bsd's again after all these years... Now that i have done that i have pretty much totally re-invested my self back into the bsd's as i can really see a lot of value it brings to the table that to many in the linux scene are unaware of as to a lot of people when you say *nix most of them say linux and then bicker over which distro's the best...

i also think that to a large part that a big piece of the current linux scene is populated with skinners and desktop people that are really mostly invested in creating a new or their own look which basically is sitting on top of lower system stuff being kept up by a smaller group... Most that i have talked to over the years that were either coming from a winblows or Mac OS seemed to fear *nix because of the loss of comfort in the desktop and how things worked...

I just think that currently theres not enough interest by people to adapt to the rpi's and its not really a matter of good or bad thing as its more of a market interest thing...

I've been doing embedded programming now for many years and now that i am back into the bsd's i doubt i will move much further forward in any linux based developments as once you start to get over some of the initial hurdles, bsd just is a better investment for anyone trying to develop in the embedded market if your worried about protecting your sources, which i can see as a growing problem for some as more and more sbc and development boards with better resources start to appear...

Hopefully others interested in the Raspberry market will start to see the light and start thinking of bsd and not be so closed...

and i agree like so many other things these days and money that Linux is unfortunately a business and not the so-called free from corporate control idea that it was all those years ago...
 

monsted

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For what little it's worth, i've been using FreeBSD for nearly two decades and i would love to have just a single good modern SBC to run small FreeBSD projects on. I don't care if it's the pi4, the rockpro64 or whatever else, but there's gotta be a lot of other people out there who just wants gigglebit ethernet and a couple of USB3 ports for a tiny NAS or whatever else. ARM cores that aren't from the stone age would be a plus.
 

pgauret

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For what little it's worth, i've been using FreeBSD for nearly two decades and i would love to have just a single good modern SBC to run small FreeBSD projects on.
Being in the same situation, I went for a cheap x86 based Atomic PI. After a couple of easy tweaks the board has been rock solid.

Still, agree it would be good to have at least one reasonably recent non x86 well supported alternative.
 

BuzzMarshall

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I think a big part of the arm embedded hold back is the lack of proper tools like workable ide's at assembly level... most of these boards have evolved sofar from the old days of 8bit and 16bit atmels/microchip and the rest where from a hobby point of view everything was there in tools for hobbiests to play and learn...

There are still dev boards from places like St or Ti that have proper tools but there different then this new movement in Sbc's like the Raspberry's and Rockchip or Amlogic that basically get a big push from people looking for media devices with more capabilities then simple Android boxes...

Most of the manufactures support stuff is still clouded in privacy or involve nda's while they all try and protect their little nitch markets which is mostly in the media player areas...

For me i am more interested in a working ide where i can develop on the core board while using its resources for the plugin boards i am designing for things like motion control and some audio development... I started as a hardware and assembly guy and still prefer working down there when designing interfaces and devices and look at these newer sbc's as replacements to the older development boards ive used for years...

Thats just my thing but as much as i like the typical linux distro's i think at some point in time developers trying to still support open source but worried about protecting core maybe proprietary rights will see the advantage to the bsd type of licencing once they become more aware of it...

bsd may be old but i believe its just been missed or overlooked because a large part of new linux users made the move in part because they can build on what others have already put out in the linux world as i think the bulk of new linux users can't or aren't willing to start at the bottom and work up... all of the bsd's are less popular to that part of the linux market...
 

CraigHB

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I'm using an AMLogic media box running Linux and it's impressive (CoreELEC on an Odroid-N2 specifically). The minimalist amount of electrical power it uses and computational power it delivers is amazing. It just runs on a little 12V/2A wall wart and even when working hard it doesn't use more than five Watts. It's amazing to me how AMLogic did that when anything x86 based would use way more power. An HTPC would probably use upwards of fifty Watts and I don't know if it would do anything that little media box can't do.
 
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