Proposed new FreeBSD.org website design

You have to think and measure why people come to any web site and who those people are. In the case of FreeBSD.org, they're technical people looking for information, whether they are new to FreeBSD or not. So information, not advertising the product, is key but some plug would be good such as "Why FreeBSD?" and "The Power to Serve!"

No. I haven't touched this yet. I may need to put it off for a couple of days.
 
You have to think and measure why people come to any web site and who those people are. In the case of FreeBSD.org, they're technical people looking for information, whether they are new to FreeBSD or not.
+1

Whenever I use the website is usually to look for technicall information (70% of the time, to download a new release). While I agree the site could use a makeover, the most important thing is being able to find those things easily.
 
The site could be organized a little better for easier access to information though I don't think it needs pretty graphics and a complete makeover in my opinion. It's a technical project, not a tech startup.
 
I don't think it needs pretty graphics and a complete makeover in my opinion. It's a technical project, not a tech startup.
Redoing a web site doesn't mean adding graphics, necessarily. If the graphic doesn't add meaning, then it serves no purpose.

After structuring the page, my first consideration is positioning of the content. The second would be the typography. Some of the most beautiful sites I've seen were nothing but nicely laid out typography.

But I said I would look into what changes could be made to the styling. A lot can be done but my hands will be tied down a bit if I'm not able to change the HTML. That would be a whole 'nother can of worms so doing this first is easiest.
 
You have to think and measure why people come to any web site and who those people are. In the case of FreeBSD.org, they're technical people looking for information, whether they are new to FreeBSD or not. So information, not advertising the product, is key but some plug would be good such as "Why FreeBSD?" and "The Power to Serve!"

No. I haven't touched this yet. I may need to put it off for a couple of days.

This type of preconceived judgement is why FreeBSD doesn't have the help and mind-share it deserves. Historical background and Bias side, FreeBSD is a general systems platform, It is not? As such, it should cater to the general audience, "technical"/"Professional" or not. Historical background should not restrain the Project to one facet of computing.

Advertising and information go hand-in-hand, so using at least some graphical representations to describe technological features or meaning won't take away from anything. It grabs attention, it makes user experience more aesthetically pleasing and easier to understand. This is important especially for younger audiences, adoption, etc.

You can't keep presenting the same crap over and over if you want more people using our software. I'm not saying to go all out with pretty ponies and such (Like Mozilla, for example) but a good mix is needed, because its presentation sucks. It needs to be "louder".
 
Beastie7 You are confusing advertising with graphics. You are stating graphics are needed but why? What is the purpose of a graphic? You don't put graphics on a page just because. It must serve a purpose and not exist for the sole purpose of being there. Otherwise it's only a distraction.

Presentation also is no indicator that a graphic of any kind is needed. As I said earlier, some of the most beautiful sites I've seen, and books and magazines, too, have no images on them at all but are carefully laid out using type alone. Does that help their cause? Sure. Does that help our cause? Don't know yet. Does it need some imagery and graphics? Don't know yet. What should they be and what are they for?

As far as "preconceived judgement", I said it should be thought about and measured so there is no preconception except, perhaps, you meant when I said the people who come to this site are technical people. I really don't see how anyone would disagree that people who land here are technically inclined people coming here intentionally to learn about FreeBSD. I can't think of why anyone else would come here except by accident.

Of course I could be wrong, to some extent, but that's why you measure these things.

I'm in the entertainment industries and restaurants so I'm more than aware of entertaining visitors with silly explosions but also aware of who wants to just read the documentation. You have to be able to explain every item on each page and why it needs to be there. At least good sites do that.
 
Beastie7 You are confusing advertising with graphics. You are stating graphics are needed but why? What is the purpose of a graphic? You don't put graphics on a page just because. It must serve a purpose and not exist for the sole purpose of being there. Otherwise it's only a distraction.

I don't see the confusion here. What I've explained above is marketing 101. I'm not saying add graphics for the sake of graphics.

Presentation also is no indicator that a graphic of any kind is needed. As I said earlier, some of the most beautiful sites I've seen, and books and magazines, too, have no images on them at all but are carefully laid out using type alone. Does that help their cause? Sure. Does that help our cause? Don't know yet. Does it need some imagery and graphics? Don't know yet. What should they be and what are they for?

It's a relative process of presentation. The cause is to promote FreeBSD. What about FreeBSD specifically? That's a whole 'nother topic.

As far as "preconceived judgement", I said it should be thought about and measured so there is no preconception except, perhaps, you meant when I said the people who come to this site are technical people. I really don't see how anyone would disagree that people who land here are technically inclined people coming here intentionally to learn about FreeBSD. I can't think of why anyone else would come here except by accident.

Describe "technical" people. What does it mean to "Learn about FreeBSD"? FreeBSD encompasses many facets of computing. Anyone from any background can come to FreeBSD looking for information. That's hardly a measurement. The point is a more simplistic way of conveying information, it better illustrates value for the common Joe and helps with adoption. People like easy shit to read.

If all we're going to do is throw a wall of text at people; we might as well just give up, do it OpenBSD style and be done with it.

I'm in the entertainment industries and restaurants so I'm more than aware of entertaining visitors with silly explosions but also aware of who wants to just read the documentation. You have to be able to explain every item on each page and why it needs to be there. At least good sites do that.

I think you're misconstruing my reasoning and process of promotion. I take it you've never sold before.
 
I take it you've never sold before.
Don't go there. I've owned my own restaurants for 30 years and four sales awards. I was on the regional advertising board for a national restaurant chain for five years. I was a systems engineer going out on sales calls with Pixar and SGI. I've owned my own web dev company for 11 years obviously selling my services. I worked in radio and television for 10 years.

I have some experience with this stuff.
 
I interrupt your brainstorming for a while, sorry. As @wblock said, the web site should be done with a new framework (web2py) but the discussion is more about how it should looks. The two things are not related, however as of the MVC model the two things are separated, in my experience, for what is worth, yes the two things are separated except where they touch, when you will write the theme (or the equivalent of it) and start swearing, you reached the point where they touch. This has more than a solution each one has its effort (violating the MVC is the effortless solution, it depends on the framework, anyways). Once you have selected the framework (or CMS, most of the work is already done, if it fits), someone works on the framework (data organization, extension modules or plug-ins, etc.) and someone other on the mock-up and theme, as usual.

In my opinion, the actual content of the site does not need big changes, it should only be organized a bit with links to pages hard to find. As an example, using something like Bootstrap plus Awesome Icons (this is only an example, I never used Bootstrap, jQuery + jQueryUI are more or less the same and 99% the JavaScript library choosen is jQuery) with the actual content, layout and images, the result should not be bad: a menu bar and bottom page menu, a sidebar menu, a button here a button group there (with icons if you like), lists with icons ('<ul>' and '<dl>'), redesign background images (if needed) and the site seems it was whole redesigned.

The thing that get me paranoid is writing the content of the pages, yes, it's unusual perhaps, but writing content in HTML is not my sport, then for my local (LAN) website (and theme, Drupal 7 here) I created a specific configuration for AsciiDoc, it generates content from text files formatted for AsciiDoc in static pages with .php extension, however the content is HTML with only the content of the '<body>' tag (not included). So each Drupal page (inside the CMS) is a 3 lines PHP code that load the page from disk (the .php page created with AsciiDoc) from a directory. Part of the name of the directory (the final part) is the same as the URL alias of the page, that is
Code:
URL = http://example.com/path/to/page
File path = $_SERVER['DOCUMENT_ROOT'] . $sOptionalSubdir . 'path/to/page.php'
and included like any other .php file.

This way, the website main menu (menu tree) has the same structure of the directory tree where load pages. That's for static pages, the only one I use, I'm the only user, so there is no forums, the comments are used as '@todo's (reminders) on pages related to projects.

As someone stated, AsciiDoc cannot be used to generate a website, I agree, however Markdown, MarkdownExtra & co. can be good or not depending on the needs. A complex HTML structure, customized styles and perhaps some other things I forgot, can be done only inserting HTML in Markdown directly, but... HTML is not my sport, then AsciiDoc. The best, in my opinion, should be MarkdownExtra plus Doxygen macros, this way solve all cases (and can replace AsciiDoc).

Define all the styles and structures used in HTML (separated by regions: content, header, footer, sidebars, etc.), create the AsciiDoc configuration (with external .js and .css, no header, no footer), HTML structures as AsciiDoc macros (with hardcoded styles where needed). It took me a bit as I still have to understand the whole syntax of the AsciiDoc configuration files, but it's done. Also created a filter to change the code syntax highlight engine, from pygments to Syntax Highlighter by Alex Gorbatchev (I posted the filter configuration on AsciiDoc forum. One year ago?).
 
Let's not get too far ahead of ourselves. I want to remind anyone who reads this that I said I was going to look at the CSS, the styling, to see what could be done to improve the look and feel of the site cause that would be the easiest thing to experiment with. Any changes beyond that are more complicated and invasive and something I don't think the organization would want me to mess with right now cause I don't know the background, their interests, or how it all comes together.
 
I agree with drhowarddrfine on this point. Starting with few changes like styles, already can give you 'another site' and the effort is at minimun, plus you cannot do big mistakes and cannot broke the site.
 
As @wblock said, the web site should be done with a new framework (web2py) but the discussion is more about how it should looks.
What? I did not say that!

What I said was that the web2py web site was a good example of better organization and simplicity. I think that our existing layout can be greatly improved without switching to a new framework, and possibly without modifying the existing one much.

drhowarddrfine, changes to the HTML are not ruled out. If HTML changes are really needed, well, we will see. The nice thing about the CSS is that it can be added without changing anything structural.

Beastie7, I encourage you (and anyone interested) to check out the website source and experiment with it. As I said before, I like the idea of users picking out their own "theme" for the site. Whether that is practical, I don't know. If we had to pick only one, it would still be nice to have the choices. And elements of multiple designs could be combined.

A note of caution: this is one of those topics that encourages people to bikeshed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bikeshed. Be prepared to have a thick skin if you actually produce something to show to people. If you are just commenting on others' work, please be constructive and considerate of their effort.
 
wblock@
What? I did not say that!

What I said was that the web2py web site was a good example of better organization and simplicity. I think that our existing layout can be greatly improved without switching to a new framework, and possibly without modifying the existing one much.
I misunderstood you. In this case what I said about the changing framework must be ignored, however my previous post was not about choosing a framework or a CMS, it was a 'warning, someone said the framework should be changed!'.
I still quote what drhowarddrfine said that modified in the right way what I said about Bootstrap + Awesome Icons. With Bootstrap the HTML must be modified, while playing with CSS avoid this.

drhowarddrfine
So you've never seen my work. :)
No, I'm curious to see it.


I'm not read all the words in all posts (last 5/6 before mine), I miss something important that hidden me the big picture. I still have troubles with verbs in the subjunctive, conditional, and similar devilry (in iatalian : too).
 
freethread, drhowarddrfine was making a joke. If you're not a native English speaker, it can be a little hard to catch. His meaning, in this case, was that even though such a thing couldn't break a site, he would break the site. It's self-deprecating humor, but again, if English isn't your first language, it's not that easy to catch.
 
scottro you are right and I should stay away from threads of this kind, or at least wait for the time things will be more clear. Now I caught the joke, in italian is the same joke, perhaps if I hear the tone of the voice and see it in face I can understand.
 
Beastie7, I encourage you (and anyone interested) to check out the website source and experiment with it. As I said before, I like the idea of users picking out their own "theme" for the site. Whether that is practical, I don't know. If we had to pick only one, it would still be nice to have the choices. And elements of multiple designs could be combined.

I intend to. It's on my list of things to play with. If the project ends up settling on a python based framework, that'll be even better.
 
If the project ends up settling on a python based framework, that'll be even better.
I won't be any part of that. This need for people to use interpreted languages on the the latest framework-of -the-day is a blunder of the highest order that prevails on the web today.

Side note: Despite my intention to work on the CSS while my wife was gone, I've failed and only given it a passing glance. Not that I've given up trying. I'm just more occupied with other projects that won't go away. One day out of the blue, though, I'll give it a burst of activity and see where we are then.
 
I like the fact that the FreeBSD forum loads quickly on my dual core FreeBSD box. The page organization and layout meets my needs.
 
I actually found some time to look at this for a bit. There is going to be a bit of an effort involved beyond minor improvements. It's definitely not a weekend project.
 
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