How's life without Docker?

[kpedersen]

it's already there: j-AI-ls

The FreeBSD project has so much foresight!

 

[rbranco]

Besides, Ansibles replaces Docker/Kubernetes for orchestration related tasks. We don't have to switch to an entirely different tool.

Who told you Ansible is used for orchestration of anything?

Ansible is for configuration management. Sigh.

 

[Beastie7]

If you can wedge "AI" in there somewhere, I'm sure the marketing and finance department will sign off on it

With our new Jail Artificial Intelligence Language - JAIL; we can help you invest in groundbreaking solutions to future marketable problems.

 

[Beastie7]

Who told you Ansible is used for orchestration of anything?

Ansible is for configuration management. Sigh.

Orchestration is one function of Infrastructure-as-code. Something Docker is terribly bad at.

 

[cy@]

At $JOB we don't offer docker services to clients. First, docker is deprecated and no longer supported (by us) on RHEL. Clients may use podman, but only in development and test. When their microservices applications become production they must move their apps to an OpenShift cluster. There we use use Kubernetes for orchestration.

We use Ansible only for configuration. It's a declarative language only suited for configuration across 10k servers of all kinds.

 

[rbranco]

Orchestration is one function of Infrastructure-as-code. Something Docker is terribly bad at.

Docker was not designed for that lol.

 

[cracauer@]

A lot of people still use docker as the container format for Kubernetes. Lots of tools and kind of convenient.

To say that docker was replaced by Kubernetes is missing a couple of points.

 

[kpedersen]

Docker got superseded by Kubernetes.

docker is deprecated and no longer supported (by us) on RHEL.

Docker isn't "deprecated" or "superseded". What you are experiencing is Google and RedHat and countless others spreading FUD and sleazewords to ensure they get your (and your client's) money instead of Mirantis.

The reality is that Docker, Podman, Kubernetes are all silly things that monetize well.

 

[rbranco]

A lot of people still use docker as the container format for Kubernetes. Lots of tools and kind of convenient.

To say that docker was replaced by Kubernetes is missing a couple of points.

Kubernetes replaces Docker only in Docker Swarm & Docker Compose. And docker-compose is more than enough for most use-cases, and can be used from podman. I haven't felt the need to use k8s or even the more lightweight k3s at all.

Docker spawned most of the application container ecosystem and is here to stay. I think they expected to be bought by Google for being the most successful Golang project at the time but Google bypassed them with Kubernetes. But Docker, Inc. is doing stuff like putting rate limits on Docker Hub that may hurt them in the long run.

 

[rbranco]

Docker isn't "deprecated" or "superseded". What you are experiencing is Google and RedHat and countless others spreading FUD and sleazewords to ensure they get your (and your client's) money instead of Mirantis.

The reality is that Docker, Podman, Kubernetes are all silly things that monetize well.

You are the one spreading FUD.

 

[cy@]

Docker isn't "deprecated" or "superseded". What you are experiencing is Google and RedHat and countless others spreading FUD and sleazewords to ensure they get your (and your client's) money instead of Mirantis.

The reality is that Docker, Podman, Kubernetes are all silly things that monetize well.

We're primarily a Red Hat shop. If Red Hat has deprecated it, it's deprecated. We don't install anything on RHEL that isn't RHEL or Oracle without the client's security officer approval.

I don't care about the politics of monetization. Whatever is, is. Professionally, I don't care.

 

[kpedersen]

You are the one spreading FUD.

FreeBSD-related Useful Discussion

We're primarily a Red Hat shop. If Red Hat has deprecated it, it's deprecated. We don't install anything on RHEL that isn't RHEL or Oracle without the client's security officer approval.

"At $JOB we don't offer docker services to clients. First, docker is deprecated and no longer supported (by us) on RHEL"

Your original statement was very cyclic. You stated that you don't offer a product to clients because you don't offer a product to clients.

Professionally, I don't care.

This part I agree with. Professionally, monetization is very important. But that alone is a great example of why this stuff is irrelevant for a project like FreeBSD and in many cases, its users.

 

[rbranco]

This part I agree with. Professionally, monetization is all that matters. But that alone is a great example of why this stuff is irrelevant for a project like FreeBSD.

Tell that to the hard-working folks making OCI containers possible on FreeBSD.

In this thread we made lots of rounds because we used "docker" to refer to a whole ecosystem:
- Docker, Inc.
- Docker Hub.
- Docker Swarm & Docker-Compose.
- Docker images that are now called OCI images. These are produced by a Dockerfile, now Containerfile.
- docker, the tool that uses all of the above.

 

[kpedersen]

Tell that to the hard-working folks making OCI containers possible on FreeBSD.

And you can tell that to the limited community who will be using it in the future (if a project is able to near completion).

In this thread we made lots of rounds because we used "docker" to refer to a whole ecosystem:

As mentioned before. This is irrelevant because OCI can not be realized on FreeBSD in a meaningful way because it will never be able to benefit from an ecosystem consisting predominantly of Linux binaries.

I don't rely on any of this stuff so I am happy to see how this plays out. Just stating some of my technical reservations and how "Life without Docker" is really not a problem.

 

[vidmak]

OCI can not be realized on FreeBSD in a meaningful way because it will never be able to benefit from an ecosystem consisting predominantly of Linux binaries.

100%. My view is we are reaping the bitter fruits of the UNIX wars and Linux ascendancy in the whole container/orchestration space, and this is bad for everyone in the end. In this respect, the effect of Docker is indistinguishable from that of systemd: propagation of Linux monocultures.

Docker is a huge part of my day job, because the whole organization is heavily invested in it, but I have not yet been able to force myself to like it. Containers are often not fully usable OOTB without customization, which rather defeats the purpose. It's so much crud and cruft built on top of actually nice underlying technologies (namespaces, cgroups). I just pray never to have to touch Kubernetes…

 

[kpedersen]

100%. My view is we are reaping the bitter fruits of the UNIX wars and Linux ascendancy in the whole container/orchestration space, and this is bad for everyone in the end. In this respect, the effect of Docker is indistinguishable from that of systemd: propagation of Linux monocultures.

Agreed. Luckily virtualization is so prevailant (and decent) these days that a monoculture isn't "too" damaging. If you need scumm X in order to run scumm Y, at least you can whack it in a VM and encapsulate any bad ideas.

And if you are on Linux... well you can actually benefit from Docker/OCI because the implicit binaries can run. XD

 

[cy@]

FreeBSD-related Useful Discussion


"At $JOB we don't offer docker services to clients. First, docker is deprecated and no longer supported (by us) on RHEL"

Your original statement was very cyclic. You stated that you don't offer a product to clients because you don't offer a product to clients.

We don't offer it because our vendor doesn't offer it anymore.

We don't install software from random sources. Nor do we build software from source. Clients can request it but they take full responsibility and are accoutable. That's a business decision on their part. An MSP cannot be responsible or accountable for client business decisions.

 

[Beastie7]

In this thread we made lots of rounds because we used "docker" to refer to a whole ecosystem:
- Docker, Inc.
- Docker Hub.
- Docker Swarm & Docker-Compose.
- Docker images that are now called OCI images. These are produced by a Dockerfile, now Containerfile.
- docker, the tool that uses all of the above.

And what's awesome about Jails is that it means exactly one thing; and it does that one thing very well.

That philosophy sounds so familiar...

 

[drhowarddrfine]

When I gave up on the bastardization by Linux years ago, I found my life to be so much easier and calmer. Linux doesn't affect me so I just don't care. I only deal with things FreeBSD that affect me.

 

[rbranco]

This must be the most depressing thread I've ever participated in on this forum. People asking "How's life without Docker?" as if we're in some kind of AA meeting, escaping the dreadful outdoors.

Relax. Nobody gets high on Docker. Lighten up. Enjoy life!

 

[drhowarddrfine]

Relax. Nobody gets high on Docker. Lighten up. Enjoy life!

Yeah. That's pretty much what I said.

 

[Maturin]

as if we're in some kind of AA meeting

Yeah, I find that always interesting:
If you want a thread that produces several pages within a few days and stays on top for weeks you just need to talk Linux.
I know many (most?) here live in both worlds, but I don't grasp why so many things are discussed here which in my eyes rather belong into some Linux forum.

 

[rbranco]

Yeah, I find that always interesting:
If you want a thread that produces several pages within a few days and stays on top for weeks you just need to talk Linux.
I know many (most?) here live in both worlds, but I don't grasp why so many things are discussed here which in my eyes rather belong into some Linux forum.

And there's another one titled "Linux is invading my FreeBSD". That one screams first-world problems.

 

[hardworkingnewbie]

What do you expect in an IT topic based forums - discussing the latest progress of the Ukrainian army on a daily base?