FreeBSD derivatives

The common sense of "let's not do this neat and shiny thing" is sadly uncommon among engineers. I count myself as part of the problem, not part of the solution.
Engineers are weird (I'm including myself here). Part of the job is actually looking at all possible solutions, so often the next shiny thing is looked at. That's not a problem, because if that next shiny thing makes the overall solution simpler and easier to maintain/debug then it's part of the keeping it simple.
The problem is when the next shiny thing is pushed/forced as THE SOLUTION without looking at anything else.
 
No. Its not possible to link a program against three different libc implementations and have it dynamically choose one. We are ultimately dealing with raw byte offsets and sizes and if these become unaligned, the result is failure. (And C has ABI compatibility. Other languages are even worse). You could create a package that has three copies of a binary (one for each C library, kind of how Android NDK works) but then you need more infrastructure. Asking that from free projects is not useful and only prolongs the inevitable rather than solving it.

A better solution is a chroot(8) or jail(8). FreeBSD is remarkably good here; including the i.e compat8x ports. There are blogs online detailing how they are still running binaries as early as 4.x
That reply is very civil and useful. Thank you.
 
And then I discovered that FreeBSD's 802.11 stack isn't usable as an access point in my environment. I complained very loudly about that, including to Kirk (the father of all BSDs) and to Sam (the main owner of its 802.11 stack at the time), and followed their advice to buy a commercial AP.
That bit is very surprising. Did you ever try OPNSense?
 
Engineers are weird (I'm including myself here). Part of the job is actually looking at all possible solutions, so often the next shiny thing is looked at. That's not a problem, because if that next shiny thing makes the overall solution simpler and easier to maintain/debug then it's part of the keeping it simple.
The problem is when the next shiny thing is pushed/forced as THE SOLUTION without looking at anything else.


Yeah, and if you look at Wolfram's Mathematica - it seemingly can do just about everything. It can make graphs, download and analyze data, compute a "quintuple integral of an equation with imaginary numbers" (yes, there is such a thing, but the very term only makes sense to seasoned Mathematica users), and a lot more. If one were to describe Mathematica in simple terms, it would be "Kernel with a shell". Mathematica is not that different from FreeBSD in such a description. The only difference - Mathematica is a commercial thing that is actually expensive.
 
That bit is very surprising. Did you ever try OPNSense?
The problem is further down. OPNSense is a FreeBSD distribution that packages the basic OS with pfsense (the firewall) and a nice install/management GUI. But the 802.11 stack is broken more fundamentally in AP mode. And what I do mean here is: I did put a PCI-based WiFi card into my server, put it into AP mode, and ran an antenna out of it.

First, it is typically a few generations back on supporting modern protocols and modern hardware. I could live with that, except that with a 45 MBit/s home internet connection and a gigabit internal network, having only 802.11b wireless for the laptops (only 11 Mbit/s) was painful. The second problem was much worse: the FreeBSD WiFi stack doesn't implement the full 802.11 standard, deliberately ignoring a rarely used option that has something to do with sliding windows and micro packets. And here "doesn't implement" means: completely broken, and has a memory leak. This meant that traffic to Apple devices was slow (as they treated the "not implemented" as an error, and retransmitted packets), and that I had to reboot my server (= AP device) multiple times per day. After checking with the authorities and finding that this wasn't going to get fixed in the foreseeable future (years), buying a commercial AP was just a much simpler option.
 
The problem is further down. OPNSense is a FreeBSD distribution that packages the basic OS with pfsense (the firewall) and a nice install/management GUI. But the 802.11 stack is broken more fundamentally in AP mode. And what I do mean here is: I did put a PCI-based WiFi card into my server, put it into AP mode, and ran an antenna out of it.
Did you try IPFire? I have used it as an AP and I know it works.
 
No, I didn't want to use Linux for this machine, due to the lack of ZFS. The idea was to combine router, firewall, storage server, app and control server, login machine, and AP all into a single box. For that, FreeBSD seemed much more appropriate.
 
If you want to be served, then please pay for the services.

Great post Ralph, covers it all well, and kindly. I only quoted the strongest thing you said that might be deemed critical, and where I would have started.

This is an edit of having accidentally hit post (again)
 
There is new Windows software that runs on Windows 95. It's rare, but it exists.
That's perfectly possible as long as you only use plain win32 API and don't use any feature that didn't exist in Win95. If you ever wrote some GUI program using only win32, you know why people typically don't do that. And once you're using libraries, versions that are still supported will typically require Windows versions that are still supported. Plus restricting yourself to the featureset of Win95 is very restrictive of course.
Is it really not viable to compile the package based on GLIBC_2.24, GLIBC_2.22 or GLIBC_2.18 so more people are covered?
glibc uses symbol versioning, so sure this can be done (and is done sometimes). It's just a C library though, so most stuff written about Windows above applies here as well.

Anyways, how is any of that even remotely related to FreeBSD?
 
Thank you for the surprisingly intelligent and, most of all, not deliberately hostile comment. I wish the entire conversation had been like this.
I'm just trying to clarify any misunderstandings and it looks like your sarcasm may have lost its tone in text to some.

From my point of view, the upshot is that so-called open source software has an expiration date, programmed obsolescence. It reeks of sabotage even. When Apple or MSFT do anything that even resembles programmed obsolescence, they get all kinds of criticism.
Not sure if I agree with this. Microsoft definitely does indeed support their stuff for a long-ass time. I mean XP was supported for like 20 years; Apple though, not so much. I should know, I'm an iOS developer. They suck with supporting anything beyond like 2 years. Just recently, I upgraded to Ventura and realized it no longer supports prior Xcode versions. Like seriously? Xcode 13 isn't even that old (September 2021). Moreover, it's one thing to just drop support and let us "use at your own risk", but no.... what they decide to do is COMPLETELY disable and prevent the program to install at all! If that's not forced obsolescence, I don't know what is. This is also probably one of the principle reasons why corporations, in general, shy away from Apple stuff and use Microsoft instead. Microsoft just has 100x better track record when it comes to LTS.

Free software gets away with it every time. In fact, it is encouraged.
Not just free software, I just showed you how terribad Apple is with the example above.

Yes, you can count on that software you like for many releases. Just update your repository and get the newer versions. But what if the project is abandoned and I don't know the first thing about compiling and have no interest in learning? I lose the software, that's what if. That's happened to me and I feel betrayed by an entire culture. I was told I would be able to use the things, but look, I am not anymore. And the answer is always the same: "It's free software, just get the source and update it yourself." That's very mean. It's like telling a regular citizen to buy or build his own bus or train when a regular line is deactivated. We can't. We can't, and developers often mock us. It's a modern version of "Let them eat cakes!"
In my opinion, FreeBSD is one of the better ones as far as LTS goes.... Go over to the Linux land and it's a crazy town out there. Hell, some of the distros don't even have ANY concept of LTS. It's almost like moving over to the new hip stuff is their MO. Just look at this list over the years: GNOME3, systemd, pulseaudio, bunch of tools like ip, ss, etc.

It's not looking great over on the commercial side either. I just got done telling you about how bad Apple is and I depend on them for a living so I'm not exactly an Apple hater. I haven't even mentioned how they solder everything into the board making it hard to repair/replace old/defective components and forcing you to buy new hardware all the time.
 
But you said you bought a commercial AP. Did it have it all? What model was it?
I started with the Apple Airport, because I already knew it well, it is super easy to administer, supports bridge mode, and there is an Apple Store about 20 minutes from home.

After a few years, I needed to upgrade it because it didn't support 802.11n and didn't have enough range, so I got aTP Link. That one has served my needs perfectly, without even using a mesh.
 
I started with the Apple Airport, because I already knew it well, it is super easy to administer, supports bridge mode, and there is an Apple Store about 20 minutes from home.

After a few years, I needed to upgrade it because it didn't support 802.11n and didn't have enough range, so I got aTP Link. That one has served my needs perfectly, without even using a mesh.
Funny, I could never make a go with TP-Link hardware... even the more expensive stuff tends to crap out on me after just a few weeks. I had to get Netgear replacements, those lasted a really long time (like 10+ years, and the reason I had to de-commission a router was because its huge WPS indicator light just turned on, and wouldn't blink/turn off. The router itself was actually fine, but that huge light not turning off was too much).
 
You don't have a roll of duct tape or electrical tape?
I do, I tried that. The light was too bright, and end result looked too ugly. Besides, it was an N router. I was kind of in the market for something that provided better coverage for my house, so replacing a 10-year-old N router with a newer AC device was kind of in the cards anyway. That unmanageable light (and the ugly-looking remediation options) was kind of the push that was needed to get up-to-date stuff. 😅 5 years of good use so far with a then-brand-new Asus wifi router. Oh, and the entire time, I stuck with DD-WRT, I don't care that it's Linux - if it does the job of unlocking the usability of my router, and can be installed, I'll friggin' use it. 😈
 
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I finally got around to cleaning out closets and found all kinds of cables and devices that I had to think "Where did that come from?" A couple of still working WRT54G other wireless stuff and "why do I have 15 VGA cables?"
 
I swear by Asus routers. My WL-520GU from 2009 is still operating perfectly even now. They run a very solid custom Linux and even comes with built-in mesh function (if I ever decide to use it) with other Asus routers.
 
So, this shifted to a thread about network equipment?

Guess I was lucky so far with TP-Link (enterprise-grade) devices. I have one manageable 24port switch in the basement (for all the ethernet wall jacks, the DSL modem, and 2 ports using LACP for the physical server, of course all separated with VLANs) and two "EAP" managed access points with POE and controller software (which of course also allows to completely disable their LEDs). Working all very well for years now. The only little issue: although the controller software is java stuff, it won't run on FreeBSD, that's why I had to install some Linux VM (bhyve) just for that :rolleyes:

It's definitely a lot cheaper than the "enterprise" stuff by other brands....
 
I do get the impression that LucNix and teo were just trolling. Why else would both issue a challenge "Sell me on FreeBSD and how to use it!" while clearly displaying no intent to be sold on FreeBSD?

Neither of those two were very responsive to coaching...

drhowarddrfine did have a very good sardonic response:
What you have to read, I have been registered for many years in this forum, participating but not often, either reporting bugs or helping users questions in the forum. You can not fight against the current of those who want the system to be only for server by default, and not for graphical desktop environment, where is the majority of the world for the use of the system that is the end user.
 
You can not fight against the current of those who want the system to be only for server by default, and not for graphical desktop environment, where is the majority of the world for the use of the system that is the end user.

Graphical desktops are very popular. This is why Linux (i.e Ubuntu), macOS and Windows exist. Why are you not using them?

Server focused operating systems are considerably more rare and perhaps should be a stronger goal of FreeBSD (although it is not).

What the focus of FreeBSD and the community aligns more with is correctness and simplicity. Unfortunately these goals often collide with "beginner friendly desktop environment" in many ways. Even fundamentally, starting from the poor state of the display systems currently (Wayland is trash and Xorg is "uncool").

Personally I feel that FreeBSD shouldn't even attempt to compete in this niche until at least Linux has a larger marketshare of desktop users compared to Windows or even macOS. Otherwise we are degrading FreeBSD for no gain whatsoever.
 
Like I said, I tried FreeBSD a very long time ago and didn't like it. I didn't like the community either.
I have only two versions why this topic has not yet been shortened: (1) the highest degree of friendliness and democracy of this community and/or (2) the great sense of humor of those who could do it. I suspect that you are joking too (the passage about Skype and editing documents in Office gave you away a little, be careful). Well, I edit documents exclusively in texlive and communicate via mail/xmpp - does anyone use them? No need )

Although the community does not need my advocacy, I would like to mention some aspects as a user to a user:

1) They wrote great books:

These books are written by excellent technical writers. This is not just technical documentation. The novice user will find in them not only a technical guide to FreeBSD, but also an advanced textbook on modern operating systems in general. In addition, there are excellent books by such authors as Mr. Lucas, McKusick, Neville-Neil, Watson, Gregg, Ramirez and many more.

2) In addition, FreeBSD Foundation regularly publishes a journal that is worth reading, as it deals with current issues.

3) I am amazed by the excellent strategic planning that was demonstrated in particular when switching to LLVM/Clang. They planned it over 10 years ago, discussed it in an open democratic atmosphere, and made the transition. Years later, LLVM is the most promising library for the analysis and transformation of programs, which includes such intermediate representations as LLVM-IR, MLIR, Polyhedral representation and others (and by the way, all BSD systems are supported). A number of these strategic moves have made FreeBSD a much more advanced system than any of the alternatives available.

Finally, I often look at modern conference reports and useful reports from past years. The speakers are not sassy, narcissistic boys, but mature tech speakers, proper fathers (and mothers) of solid software. As far as I remember, the most rude expression I read on this forum was something along the lines of "You should also read the documentation here and here". Thus, loving (or not loving) the community is a private matter, but it is a two-edged rope: they, too, can have their own opinion.
 
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