FreeBSD derivatives

But do you have to reinstall all the applications when you upgrade FreeBSD? Do they cease to work?
After upgrading to a new release, you have to do this: pkg-static upgrade -f. If you are upgrading to a new patchlevel, you don't need to do anything special. More details in the handbook.

If an already installed application is no longer maintained and updated for a few years, does it cease to work?
Usually they will continue running even after you upgrade to newer releases, so long as you install compat packages. But some pkgs may get removed due to security concerns.

In general if you update packages, you should pay attention to any messages related to it as some time the original s/w may make incompatible changes. But also note that you don't *have* to update packages. One thing you *should* do is to read /usr/ports/UPDATING (on github) and see if there are any important changes related to any installed software.

As for releases, going from release N to N+2 or more will be much more painful. Though a friend of mine still runs his main computer on FreeSBD-6.2 (released over 16 yeas ago)!

In my view handbook is far too detailed for newbies but you don't have to read it all at once. Just dip into a relevant section as and when necessary.
 
FWIW, the package upgrade headaches (which are definitely present in both Linux AND BSD world) are actually something I'm trying to address. But for that, I'd need to learn pretty much the entire package delivery system, and re-implement it on my own hardware, and figure out what tweaks it needs to fit MY case. I spent years learning alternatives - RPM, .deb, and the like. I settled on FreeBSD, because I like its ports system - I can tweak compilation settings to unlock features, let dependency resolution take care of the rest, and even figure out how to properly add a port.

All it takes is actually paying attention to the documentation, and not do stuff out of order or skip steps. Yeah, manuals can be pretty dry and boring reading. But they're meant to be read with a goal in mind, something other than being entertained by the content of the manuals. Very few people read manuals for entertainment. Manuals get read because they actually contain important information. This is why RTFM gets said so often.
 
The absolute worst about the entire BSD community is the tacit and compulsive assumption that everybody not only has a clue of how to compile code from source but also how to fix it.

I wanted to make a joke about fixing the avionics of an F-35, but better not. You lot may actually be capable of doing that and think it's trivial.
 
assumption that everybody not only has a clue of how to compile code from source but also how to fix it.

or being willing to learn and adapt...

Just like an F-35. You need to learn a lot before you can fix (or use) it effectively (The F-35 C++ style document alone is complex enough). Beginners can't just demand it to be made easier for those who don't want to learn. It would risk making it a "lesser" machine.

There are *much* simpler machines available for those who want ease of use. For example, a scooter.

But honestly, take your time and enjoy the process. There is no rush. BSD doesn't change as quickly as Windows or Linux so it is not a race. What you learn today will still be valid and relevant when you pass it on to your great grandkids ;)
 
Just read on simpleflying.com that it takes just 11 days of training for a pilot to move from an Airbus A321neo to an Airbus A380. By comparison, it takes about 4 weeks to move from a 737 to a 747.
 
The absolute worst about the entire BSD community is the tacit and compulsive assumption that everybody not only has a clue of how to compile code from source but also how to fix it.

I wanted to make a joke about fixing the avionics of an F-35, but better not. You lot may actually be capable of doing that and think it's trivial.

The F-35 software is not open source.
 
LucNix why don't you try something like 9front, Inferno or Tribblix? I heard that they are very user-friendly and you don't need to read to use it. ;·)
 
The absolute worst about the entire BSD community is the tacit and compulsive assumption that everybody not only has a clue of how to compile code from source but also how to fix it.

I wanted to make a joke about fixing the avionics of an F-35, but better not. You lot may actually be capable of doing that and think it's trivial.
I would not use the word "compulsive assumption", but the words "target audience" and "intended usage".

To use your example: The Cessna 172 is a very good airplane. One important metric that demonstrates how good it is: more of it have been built than any other plane. It has a certain "target audience", people who pilot it themselves, and take relatively short trips, with 1 to 3 passengers, going 120 knots. The Boing 747 has a certain target audience, people who have a copilot, a year or two of training, and want to take 300 of their best friends or a few hundred tons of stuff with them. Again, its a very good plane: For several decades, it was the "queen of the skies", the unchallenged largest commercial passenger and cargo plane. It can go a lot faster and further than the Cessna, but also burns a bit more fuel and requires a bit more training. The F-35 is also a really good plane (exactly why is sort of classified), but when flying it, you can't take any friends or stuff with you. And it requires an enormous amount of training (the average Cessna pilot wouldn't even get off the ground, much less back to it), and a ludicrous amount of money, support staff, and ancillary systems to operate. As a pilot (and I have several friends who fly airplanes, ranging from a Cessna 152 to C-130 and 747), you have to pick the plane that is most compatible with your needs, wishes, and skills. (Coincidence: A USAF C-130 "King58" just took off right next to my office.)

My intuition is that you are looking for a desktop OS, to run applications on, such as document editing; you made a list of your needs earlier. You do not wish to read documentation, or learn the skills for administering the system from a TUI, nor of simple programming (such as editing scripts or system config files that are written in scripting languages). You don't want to deal with the complexity of distinguishing base and packages, nor deal with dependency of packages, or updating. If that's all a reasonable description of your wants and needs, then perhaps FreeBSD is not the system that will make you happy. But perhaps I'm mis-characterizing your viewpoint.
 
The absolute worst about the entire BSD community is the tacit and compulsive assumption that ...
Why waste your valuable & limited time complaining about things you can't change? Whining won't make you feel better or help you achieve anything.
 
assumption that everybody not only has a clue of how to compile code from source but also how to fix it.
Lots of answers to this, still nobody mentioned it's simply not true? :-/ Not a single post in this thread suggests a user should ever have to go down to the code level. So, where does this come from? (other than eristic dialectics strategies that are quite popular among for example trolls....)

BSD expects you to understand the system to some extent (meaning some knowledge which component is responsible for what, how it's configured/maintaned and at some points how components interact). In return, you get a system that won't randomly surprise you but works in a predictable manner, manually configured.

Nothing of this has anything to do with code. Knowing code (and, fixing it) isn't required unless you want to work on ports* yourself.

*edit: or, of course, on the base system...
 
Lots of answers to this, still nobody mentioned it's simply not true? :-/ Not a single post in this thread suggests a user should ever have to go down to the code level.
Fair point. I just assumed that they didn't quite know what "code" was and that simply running commands was the same as code in their mind.

Difficult to tell the technical level of some people who just want "easy" with no real justification of why or what their definition of easy even is.
 
In return, you get a system that won't randomly surprise you but works in a predictable manner, manually configured.
...and while configuring you will gain valuable insights that often apply to other Unix-like systems as well, including Linux. Insights that will help you solve problems.
It's probably one of the reasons to keep the installer limited to the very basics. In the past it did more than it does now.
 
I do get the impression that LucNix and teo were just trolling. Why else would both issue a challenge "Sell me on FreeBSD and how to use it!" while clearly displaying no intent to be sold on FreeBSD?

Neither of those two were very responsive to coaching...

drhowarddrfine did have a very good sardonic response:
 
I do get the impression that LucNix and teo were just trolling. Why else would both issue a challenge "Sell me on FreeBSD and how to use it!" while clearly displaying no intent to be sold on FreeBSD?

Neither of those two were very responsive to coaching...

Both have been successful in spending a fair bit of time from quite a few genuine posters offering coaching.

It's been rewarding seeing such generosity of sprint of many here, well countering the negativity fed in by quite sophisticated trolling.

In that sense they've been of some use, practicing dealing with that, but are we done?

Wait till trolls turn chatgpt-like monsters loose on us ... or has that already begun?
 
We do seem to have an infestation of a pretty specific breed of trolls on these Forums: Help Vampire. Such users are not exactly welcome on the Linux turf, either. I picked up the term doing some quick google research for an issue I was having with an Arch VM. Solved my original issue in 5 minutes, too! Spent more time researching "help vampires" than on the original issue 😈
 
They seem to approach it with the angle of "wah, must be more user-friendly!".
In reality they just want to make a mess and then waddle off after losing interest. They don't even know what user-friendly means.

The first time I saw this was in Qemu. They were trolling for decades to have a GUI. As soon as one came along, they got bored and disappeared and that is why we are left with this incomplete, eclectic, inconsistent piece of crap (two menu bar elements. Nice work. Happy now?).

qemu_win_sles.png

Theo de Raadt was probably correct in his statement during an interview of not specifically wanting users. It means you can keep the software clean and correct; outliving all the broken crud left in the wake of these guys.
 
Because they cannot get themselves to work with a CLI. Quite a few people have that, imo it's one of the reasons Ubuntu came up so fast.
In this case, both are good examples of absolutely lobotomizing functionality for something that is called a GUI in name only.

For example, Qemu's GUI doesn't expose any actual features, other than perhaps turning the VM off and on. And Ubuntu's Gnome 3 interface is beaten in terms of features by even Windows 3.1.

If GUI users are happy with this... then honestly their GUI requirements are mere compulsion rather than anything worth catering for. Kinda like the incorrect assumption that "CLI is old, thus bad. GUI is new, thus good"
 
In this case, both are good examples of absolutely lobotomizing functionality for something that is called a GUI in name only.
Many years ago, a colleague gave a presentation. It was about an extremely complicated system (also an extremely powerful and efficient and fast system), which was an overwhelming success in its marketplace. Except that configuring, optimizing and maintaining it was quite difficult. A lot of that was because it is a complex system, built to handle many different workloads, on systems ranging from laptops to the largest computers in the world (including computers that are so large that their existence is a secret). It was also an expensive system; typical customers would pay ~M$ for using it (and found it to be worth it). Using this system in a well-managed and optimized fashion on a large machine typically required several dedicated and trained administrators, or a service contract from the vendor who sent experts to customers (for a fee).

Now, clearly many end users clearly wanted it to be easier to use. But still configured correctly, so it runs extremely fast, and is reliable. The single largest cause of usage problems was human misconfiguring it, and mis-using commands they didn't fully understand. We had extremely good documentation (man pages, install guides, even books), and dedicated training classes, both for users, and for the vendor's support staff. In spite of that, bad things happened, and it was difficult to use. Some users were clamoring for a "configuration GUI".

So my colleague's presentation was about how to make management easier. He described the system in a slide, which showed an electronics workbench: On the right a soldering iron, in the middle an empty piece of PC board, and on the left a big unsorted pile of resistors, capacitors and transistors. This was the traditional way of managing the system.

The next slide showed how administration would work with a GUI: It was the same workbench with the same things on it, except he added an oscilloscope to the back. Everyone laughed. Some people actually got the point.

What's the point? Complexity exists. It exists for a reason. Big systems (such as FreeBSD) are intended to be used in a huge variety of use cases and workflows. There is not a single configuration that can be used for all these situations. An oscilloscope can help you tune the value of one component (such as adjusting one trimpot until the receiver circuit resonates nicely). It can be used to check whether the circuit is working (is there music coming out of test point 17). It can not tell you how to arrange that pile of resistors, transistors and capacitors into a functioning circuit. It can't teach you circuit theory, or the basics of electronics, but you need to understand those to build a good radio (or amplifier or robot controller). A GUI has its place, as a monitoring tool and for fine adjustment, but it does not make complexity go away. If you want to use a complex system, you need to learn how it works, and how the pieces work together. That is usually done by reading.

Now, if you have an appliance (like a refrigerator), you just plug it into a wall outlet, and it starts working. No need for a GUI. For a complex appliance (like a washing machine), a simple GUI works: A few adjusters (for temperature, cycle length and so on), and a few feedback elements (like how much longer before it is done).
 
Now, if you have an appliance (like a refrigerator), you just plug it into a wall outlet, and it starts working. No need for a GUI. For a complex appliance (like a washing machine), a simple GUI works: A few adjusters (for temperature, cycle length and so on), and a few feedback elements (like how much longer before it is done).
These days, you need a manual bigger than a 17-inch gaming laptop just to be able to use the the damn refrigerator:
 
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