firefox is not unix, it is something horrible

And I remember it looking pretty different from IE back then, it came with a WYSIWYG HTML editor that was fun to play with
Wasn't that Netscape Communicator? Navigator was only the browser, Communicator was a whole suite of applications.

IE was a rather awkward browser back then, and did not render some web pages properly.
The first IE version came with the Plus! pack for Windows 95. Netscape was already used a lot but was a paid product. IE was free. That pretty much killed Netscape.

"Olivetti Prodest PC 128" + MSDOS + BORLAND TURBO PASCAL 5.5.
Had to learn to code Pascal at school on Turbo Pascal 2 or 3, running on a PC emulator on an Amiga 1000. The whole thing ran as slow as molasses.
 
But it's all these people know and thus every game console became a "nintendo".
Admittedly I do get a trollish satisfaction at calling my nephew's Steam Deck a Gameboy. He is not a fan of me doing so ;)

The first IE version came with the Plus! pack for Windows 95. Netscape was already used a lot but was a paid product. IE was free. That pretty much killed Netscape.
If I recall, IE also had the fact it used system libraries going for it. It seemed to start up much faster.
 
If I recall, IE also had the fact it used system libraries going for it. It seemed to start up much faster.
No doubt that helped too. Netscape looked the same on pretty much every system I ever saw it run on. Probably because it had all the GUI elements, widgets and whatnot embedded in that huge executable.
 
Admittedly I do get a trollish satisfaction at calling my nephew's Steam Deck a Gameboy. He is not a fan of me doing so ;)
? No need for special gaming consoles any more. My Samsung phone will do, thank you very much. There's an app for just about any game, even some that most ppl never heard of, phones have wifi, Bluetooth, and a truckload of other features to make Steam Deck jealous. ? Heck, I bet Nintendo has apps out there that make the game controllers obsolete.
 
I've started playing with the "Olivetti Prodest PC 128" + MSDOS + BORLAND TURBO PASCAL 5.5. I really loved the Turbo Pascal.
Sorry but Pascal is something very miserable. Turbo Pascal is good compiler and IDE but Pascal language is bad - mainly the stupid syntax with := assignment instead of = and heap of unnecessary words begin-end, begin-end, procedure, function. C syntax is equivalent for most things in shorter form. I used Borland C++ compiler 2.0 for DOS and 3.0 for Windows.
 
but Pascal language is bad - mainly the stupid syntax with := assignment instead of = and heap of unnecessary words begin-end, begin-end, procedure, function.
I also prefer C and its syntax, but I would not judge pascal due to that "stupid syntax" that comes from ALGOL.
C is perhaps more primitive than pascal that for example allows local procedures. All is a question of taste.
 
Sorry but Pascal is something very miserable. Turbo Pascal is good compiler and IDE but Pascal language is bad - mainly the stupid syntax with := assignment instead of = and heap of unnecessary words begin-end, begin-end, procedure, function. C syntax is equivalent for most things in shorter form. I used Borland C++ compiler 2.0 for DOS and 3.0 for Windows.

At the first years of '90 it was good. I remember that it was the first attempt of object-oriented programming. Pascal 2 and 3 weren't good,but 5 was good for the time. I felt very comfortable with it. But later I didn't use any other programming language anymore. My career ended there. Don't you think that a programming language is something like a dress that fits better on someone than on others ? And anyway,I was a child and at the time I tried to learn everything by myself without reading the documentation (internet wasn't there yet), but going through trial and errors. For me creating some video games only by myself was a remarkable intellectual work, even if from what you seem to say it seems that programming in pascal was a piece of cake for you. It was 1991.
 
Wasn't that Netscape Communicator? Navigator was only the browser, Communicator was a whole suite of applications.


The first IE version came with the Plus! pack for Windows 95. Netscape was already used a lot but was a paid product. IE was free. That pretty much killed Netscape.


Had to learn to code Pascal at school on Turbo Pascal 2 or 3, running on a PC emulator on an Amiga 1000. The whole thing ran as slow as molasses.

Turbo Pascal 5 was notable for its extremely fast compiling times. Why you said that the whole thing ran slow ?
 
Turbo Pascal 5 was notable for its extremely fast compiling times. Why you said that the whole thing ran slow ?
Compilation and running are two different things. The 'Turbo' part in Turbo Pascal seems to apply to compilation only. You'd have to study compiler design, and compare Turbo Pascal to other compilers to understand why.
 
The 'Turbo' part in Turbo Pascal seems to apply to compilation only.
I am inclined to believe that the Turbo part highlighted that it was targeted to the home / hobbyist market. Mostly because the Borland Turbo C++ product was just a cut down version of Borland C++ 3.1. IDE and all. Still very good though. A cult classic.
 
I had understood the logic "begin-end, begin-end, procedure, function" very well. What has been the evolution of turbo pascal during the years ? Is there a programming language today that works using that logic ? I liked very much to write procedures and to put them in separated files. I could start again to program something if I could get still comfortable with that lexical structure.
 
Sorry but Pascal is something very miserable. Turbo Pascal is good compiler and IDE but Pascal language is bad - mainly the stupid syntax with := assignment instead of = and heap of unnecessary words begin-end, begin-end, procedure, function. C syntax is equivalent for most things in shorter form. I used Borland C++ compiler 2.0 for DOS and 3.0 for Windows.
Sorry, but the := vs. = syntax belongs to one of the most ignorant arguments against Pascal that I've ever heard, and I've heard already a lot.

In common Mathematical Notations (like this one) = is the equal sign, and == is even not mentioned. Many math concepts evolve around things being equal or not to each other and arguably the equal sign belongs to the most important math symbols, if it isn't the most important one. That said we can easily tell apart math aware creators of programming languages from the others, by how the plain equal sign is used. In Pascal it used for the "is equal to" operator (correct) in C it is used for the assignment operator (does not feel very correct).
 
I had understood the logic "begin-end, begin-end, procedure, function" very well. What has been the evolution of turbo pascal during the years ? Is there a programming language today that works using that logic ? I liked very much to write procedures and to put them in separated files. I could start again to program something if I could get still comfortable with that lexical structure.
We got Free Pascal in the ports - lang/fpc. From the manual:

Free Pascal is designed to be, as much as possible, language and source-level compatible with ISO pascal, Mac Pascal, Turbo Pascal 7.0 and most (if not all) versions of Delphi. It achieves this through a system of compiler directives which tell the compiler what language is targeted (they can be mixed to a certain degree).
 
Sorry, but the := vs. = syntax belongs to one of the most ignorant arguments against Pascal that I've ever heard
I am programmer. If you are teacher, I will understand your viewpoint. The problem with := is that assignment is used constantly and you have to click shift in addition to second character, i.e. 3 keys instead of 1. And this is repeated thousands of times. If you have not used C, maybe will not understand and think this is "ignorant". I can say your opinion is stupid.
 
I am programmer. If you are teacher, I will understand your viewpoint. The problem with := is that assignment is used constantly and you have to click shift in addition to second character, i.e. 3 keys instead of 1. And this is repeated thousands of times. If you have not used C, maybe will not understand and think this is "ignorant". I can say your opinion is stupid.
This is my GitHub repo, there I am Cyclaero: https://github.com/cyclaero

If you dare to have a look, you will find a lot of C code of mine there, anyway I won't discuss this any further with people who have a mental horizon with a radius of r = 0 (is equal to) and then call this their point of view.
 
Sorry but Pascal is something very miserable. Turbo Pascal is good compiler and IDE but Pascal language is bad
Sorry, but the := vs. = syntax belongs to one of the most ignorant arguments against Pascal

You're absolutely right.

To understand this (Pascal), you need to see the time.
We're talking 1980s.
There was no "computer science" yet at universities.
People getting involved in computers are either urged to use that new technology, mostly natural scientists at universities or office staff of big companies (from those came most reluctance against Unix).
Or were interested in, mostly mathematicians, physicists and electronics engineers (Unix/BSD), and also technically interested students, which mostly only could afford a homecomputer (BASIC), those 1MHz, 64kB, not necessarily with mass storage but with TV connection things.
The "rest" got to computers mostly in the late 90s.

It was completely normal that anybody needed to have at least a small class in computers first before you were allowed to use them.
(At least people learned, what "save file to disk" means, instead of blindly trust the system automatically syncs with a cloud in the background ?)
Part of most of those classes also contained a bit fundamental start of programming, because this not only teaches you how a computer works but there also often was a need to write at least small programms for yourself.
There was no internet like today, where you just quickly google a free tool that does the job you need.
Most today's users simply don't get the concept of having an powerful automation monster directly in front of them and use it to automate.
They only got "powerful". ?
Book tip for the summer:
Clifford Stoll, The Cuckoo's Egg - you'll virtually dive into the Berkeley of the early 80s, get a colorimeter of computers of those days, the dawn of internet and especially Berkeley Unix.

Back to (sub)topic:
Pascal was originally never ment to be a programming language for doing real, big stuff.
(Even if modern interpreters are capable of doing a serious job.)
It was ment to lead people to programming by teaching the basic concepts of a higher procedural language (this were pre-objective times) and above all structured programming.

Those homecomputers had a very primitive BASIC in their ROMs, acting as some kind of very primitive OS.
But sadly BASIC was also promoted to be the best start to learn programming with.
That's where this GOTO-spaghetti-code crap came from.

Pascal's syntax is so cumbersome, particulary function names are so long, not to be efficient for programming, but to make the programming elements clearly visible and get closer to natural language, so total newcomers to programming would not completely freak out by seeing short, efficient, abstract syntax.
Or even Assembler, which was the only real alternative to programm something halfway usable on a homecomputer.

Many like me, also started learning programming with (Turbo)Pascal in school, later had problems when switching to C at university.
E.g. you still trying := ?
:= may a bit fussy, yes.
It's because the founder of Pascal, Niklaus Wirth, is a mathematics professer (even swiss. Those can be even more picky than germans ?.)
And he wants it to be correct.

He wanted to have a clear distinguish between the mathamatical equal = and a computer's value allocation.
Friends who are good in math I tried to teach the very basics of programming, really had a hard time to understand i = i + 1
For people in computer's this is totally clear what this does, because they see the computer's function in it:
The step that the computer first calculates the right side, then the second when it allocates that value to the left.
A mathematician sees no steps here.
He sees an equation, with i is always the same on both sides of the =
And that's completey useless for what you want a computer have to be done.
Either i on both sides have the same value at the same time, so the equation is wrong.
Or i has no defined value. Then the equation is not solvable as to have a single scalar value.

Kernigham & Richtie just decided not to be so very correct, but instead to have small, short syntax with as less typing and reading effort as possible.

<ps>
<text>
<statement>
<word> then <\word>
<anotherword> some <\anotherword>
<word> day <\word>
<xml> XML <\xml>
<wordagain> appeared <\wordagain>
<word> and <\word>
<word> we <\word>
<anotherword> discuss <\anotherword>
<nowordbuttext> := <\nowordbuttext>
<word> over <\word>
<nowordbuttext> = <\nowordbuttext>
<\statement>
<\ps>
<\text>

??

If you bother about Pascal's syntax already then XML must be really annoying.
XML does everything what over seventy years of computer science has figured out and defined as DON'Ts
Except for webpages there is absolutely no reason and no excuse to use this shit for anything!
Anybody who uses it in my eyes failes the fundamental rules of coding.
 "Keep readability above efficiency" - Yeah, then don't do XML! Never, ever!!
Because XML is neither of it.

Even on FreeBSD I trip more ond more over that shit.
Just yesterday again: /etc/regdomain.xml
wtf is the use of doing this file in XML!?!
There is none, except you think you have to because others also do.

Sorry, frankly, but there is no other word to describe this as crap!
Endless special characters, lots of problems, with charsets, escapecodes..., more bytes to be processed and stored... - problems only for one single no-real-benefit at all, only:
"looks better" in a browser. Great!
I am not doing my system's config work with a browser.
Besides I do not know what the browser saves and supplies to other websites/services,
(where we were back to topic, again)
I am editing textfiles.
So therefore I am neither using a browser,
nor I'm doing code on LibreOfficeWriter, MS Word or shit neither.
I am using a texteditor.
If you need something from such a file, or want to edit ist, you cannot use it as a template,
you cannot copy-paste it,
because first you need get rid off all that XML-rubbish. :rude:
Besides it's hard to read that trashed up rubbish, xml forces an additionally extra step whixh neither you nor the computer wants:
User: text -> xml-interpreter -> xml
Prg: xml -> xml-interpreter -> text
That's BS!
text <-> text
Basta!
We don't need to discuss := or =
If you want a=1
don't do something like
<bs>
<var> a <\var> <=> = <\=> <value> 1 <\value>
<\bs>
just write
a=1
!!!1!eleven ?
 
Pascal syntax is good for introduction and first glance on source code. When beginner does not know any programming language and see: procedure, begin, a := 10, end, etc. he/she will think "ok, I understand it" (and does not understand anything). But a real programming language is not for first glance but for experienced programmers. Every detail in well known and enclosing block with brackets { and } is 1000 times better than writing and reading of unnecessary begin-end. Waste of time to write and unnecessary letters on screen when reading. Pascal can be good for education. But in reality, many people continue to use it later for production. It was very bad idea to use Pascal in Delphi - for that reason I completely ignored Delphi when it was in use.
 
But in reality, many people continue to use it later for production
I'm not aware of Pascal being used so much on real projects. C, C++ and C# are the ones which the most code was done so far (at least as far as I think I know.)
But you introduced another - important - point of software engineering completely.
Namely the question when to use which programming language for what.
And who decides?
As far as I'm concerned in many projects the to be used language is not the most useful for the job, but what boss read in some magazine is the current top-trendy one.
...and then you stick with the code, because nobody has the will nor the time to rewrite it all....
 
Guys!
You don't need to tell me there was a mouse before Windows.
I just quoted UW to make a point how media works.
Myself I used an Amiga 500 and later a 2000, and there had been Atari 1040s..., and we had several Sun's SPARCstations with Solaris Desktop (X) in university (Amiga plus those I learned to love the concept of Unix), long before Windows even appeared.
I sat before tv and just thought what bs they are announcing in tv-news!

If you used Amiga/Atari and/or Unix before Windows, you not only learned, that there was a mouse before Windows, you also missed many things for many years on Windows, other systems already had. Such as real multitasking, stable and usable functioning networking with nfs, or compare shells or Amiga's Rexx with what you have on Windows until "power-shell" ? appeared....
 
It's because the founder of Pascal, Niklaus Wirth, is a mathematics professer (even swiss. Those can be even more picky than germans ?.
Wirth is known for two things mainly: writing a standard book about algorithms called "Algorithms and Data Structures", and creating several programming languages. Pascal is just one of these, and one of the older ones.

Pascal dates back to 1968 up 1972. Therefore it's not so bad for a language from these days. Later he created in order Modula 2, Modula 3 and Oberon.
 
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