Docker is dead

sadaszewski

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I just wanted to make your lives easier before the mentions of Focker get flooded with other sub-par FreeBSD solutions. At this point in time I have tested them all and they are a far cry from Docker-like abstractions provided by Focker. Nvm I will stop mentioning it in old posts but I will keep recommending it in new threads the same way people always reply with the old, sub-par (and honestly not even remotely similar in functionality to Focker) solutions (iocage, ezjail, qjail, etc).
 

Mjölnir

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Time is ripe for a "objective" comparison of these tools? Or two: one for jails, one for bhyve VM's.
 

Purkuapas

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I think the problem is not the lack of an alternative to docker. There is an alternative: Bastillebsd, Focker, CBSD...
The problem is that we cannot convert Linux binaries of real docker images. And the FreeBSD ( BastilleBSD/Focker/CBSD) community is too small to create and maintain its own app images. For this reason, all these utilities do not matter much. All we have for the docker is the bhyve.
 

sadaszewski

Member

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I think the problem is not the lack of an alternative to docker. There is an alternative: Bastillebsd, Focker, CBSD...
The problem is that we cannot convert Linux binaries of real docker images. And the FreeBSD ( BastilleBSD/Focker/CBSD) community is too small to create and maintain its own app images. For this reason, all these utilities do not matter much. All we have for the docker is the bhyve.
Last time I checked it is not the Docker developers who maintain images for different distributions and software applications. Now we need to market something to the software developers so that they start preparing and maintaining their own images. I think Focker is much better positioned for that as it resembles Docker a lot, concept-wise and workflow-wise, and the developers presumably all know Docker.
 

kagi3624

Member


Messages: 30

So a wrapper around a wrapper. Or a tool for a tool?

This sounds like web development nowadays. No one just writes HTML, CSS and JavaScript. You have a tool to make that but, then, someone comes along with a tool to make the first tool better but then someone else needs a tool for that tool and, pretty soon, you have what's going on now--layer upon layer of tools that are all supposed to make life easier but they don't.

As I said, if one is going to use FreeBSD, use jails and be done with it.
Your comment reminded me of seitting up java for software developemen.t
 

AM

New Member


Messages: 5

So a wrapper around a wrapper. Or a tool for a tool?

This sounds like web development nowadays. No one just writes HTML, CSS and JavaScript. You have a tool to make that but, then, someone comes along with a tool to make the first tool better but then someone else needs a tool for that tool and, pretty soon, you have what's going on now--layer upon layer of tools that are all supposed to make life easier but they don't.

As I said, if one is going to use FreeBSD, use jails and be done with it.
I would like to add my 5¢ to discussion.

The main reason why web devs use docker is to have consistent environment in development, demo and production. For instance, node.js code may behave different on different OS. Most devs have either MacOS/Windows as their dev machine, but production is running on FreeBSD. Because docker uses Linux, I'm as a web dev who loves FreeBSD, forced to use some Linux distro both on the server container and on my dev machine in my local docker client.

Therefore, if FreeBSD developers want to make their OS more popular and as a result to get more donations will have to jump on the trends of web dev and create some FreeBSD alternative of docker. When I say alternative of docker I mean execution of FreeBSD jail layers on MacOS/Windows easier than to run VM, i.e. some sort of containerization.
 
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drhowarddrfine

Son of Beastie

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For instance, node.js code may behave different on different OS.
The purpose of node is to use javascript for consistency on the web. Different behavior based on OS is the opposite of its purpose and containers don't solve that. There are other issues at hand there. Of course, relying on node is a problem in itself.
Most devs have either MacOS/Windows as their dev machine, but production is running on FreeBSD.
Most? Designers maybe but not developers. And especially not FreeBSD.

Note: This month marks 17 years since I started a web dev company using FreeBSD
if FreeBSD developers want to make their OS more popular and as a result to get more donations will have to jump on the trends of web dev and create some FreeBSD alternative of docker.
Make FreeBSD act like Linux? No thank you. FreeBSD is a professional operating system for professionals. Linux is popular among the hobbyists which is why you hear more about it. Remove the hobbyists and usage drops by 80%.

You want great networking? You should be using FreeBSD, not Linux. Look at why NASA, Netflix and Juniper are using BSD for networking as documented everywhere. If you want containers, use jails. Don't be copying Linux's problem solvers that have problems themselves. (If Docker is so great, why do people use Kubernetes?)
 

Jose

Aspiring Daemon

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The purpose of node is to use javascript for consistency on the web. Different behavior based on OS is the opposite of its purpose and containers don't solve that. There are other issues at hand there. Of course, relying on node is a problem in itself.
So true. Node's "download the Internet for every build" means that installs on the same machine from a couple of hours ago can be different from an install you do now. The last time I worked on a node project (and I was paid to) we used some tool to keep 2-3 versions of node around because of the significant compatibility problems new versions introduced, and new versions happened early and often.
Therefore, if FreeBSD developers want to make their OS more popular and as a result to get more donations will have to jump on the trends of web dev and create some FreeBSD alternative of docker. When I say alternative of docker I mean execution of FreeBSD jail layers on MacOS/Windows easier than to run VM, i.e. some sort of containerization.
So Freebsd should have embraced Ruby on Rails? Asp.net? Java servlets and JSPs? Apache with mod_perl? SOAP? CORBA? So many missed opportunities!
 

mark_j

Aspiring Daemon

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Javascript is evil; it and all its disciples should be burned at the stake (or is that steak?)
 

AM

New Member


Messages: 5

The purpose of node is to use javascript for consistency on the web. Different behavior based on OS is the opposite of its purpose and containers don't solve that. There are other issues at hand there. Of course, relying on node is a problem in itself.
...

Thanks for your response. I'm not looking to argue who is right and who is wrong.

The thing is that I'm as the user of FreeBSD looking for solution which will make my life easier.
If you personally, don't want to invest time into it, no one is looking to force you to do that.
Just say that you don't want to do that, whatever encouragement I'm offering, whether it is donations or fame, recognition as influential developer etc.

It doesn't matter.

FreeBSD is open source and FreeBSD license is very liberal as far as I understand and anyone can create solution in demand especially if:
...NASA, Netflix and Juniper are using BSD...

Anyway, thank you for your answer. Happy New Year!
 
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drhowarddrfine

Son of Beastie

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Established in June 2015 by Docker ...
Reads more like a Docker compatible project.

But Docker is dead. I saw an article about this again a couple of days ago. That everyone is switching to Kubernetes. Docker somehow managed to raise $32 million dollars but that really isn't a lot for a big business.
 

rootbert

Well-Known Member

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yeah, Docker might be dead, but the technology behind is not (thats what I was refering to) ... whatever, let's call it OCI container, whether it is kubernetes, podman, runc, docker, containerd etc. that runs the application container does not matter. Just wanted to point out that there is an interesting application container project for FreeBSD growing
 

Trihexagonal

Daemon

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The thing is that I'm as the user of FreeBSD looking for solution which will make my life easier.
If by easy you mean simple, it doesn't get any easier than editors/leafpad. I picked up where I left off on NotePad when I switched from Windows.

I've never used anything but a text editor and valid XHTML or CSS on my sites since I taught myself how to write it at w3schools.com when it came out in 2000.

Docker was a type of khakis Jeans back then. Fireworks was what people who wore them and couldn't write XHTML or CSS used.

Like black Jeans and LeafPad were to those who could.
 

neel

Active Member
Developer

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Messages: 115

yeah, Docker might be dead, but the technology behind is not (thats what I was refering to) ... whatever, let's call it OCI container, whether it is kubernetes, podman, runc, docker, containerd etc. that runs the application container does not matter. Just wanted to point out that there is an interesting application container project for FreeBSD growing
The truth is that Docker is commoditized product. Docker's "decline" is a product of their own making, they are just a leader in a piece of software that's easy to replace.

Docker thought they would give their software free and open source so everyone would use Swarm. But then Kubernetes came along and everyone used that, and hence Docker is struggling. Docker is just the container engine, abstracted behind Kubernetes.

Docker might "re-focus" on "Developer Tools", but why would I use something with the "Docker" name instead of the tools my cloud provider gives me and not worry about another bill? Just because Docker was "cool" and "upcoming" in 2015? Look at HTC, they were "cool" 10 years ago and now HTC is history, they lost to Apple, Samsung, and the various number of Chinese OEMs.

Look at Hadoop vendors like Cloudera, they once had the world come around them in 2011 and now Hadoop (and Spark) is just a managed service in AWS or Azure. Why use "Cloudera" when I can just use the Hadoop which comes with my cloud subscription? Same applies to Docker.

In comparison, look at Microsoft. Say what you want about them, but a lot of companies use Microsoft products mainly since they only have to worry about one vendor for OSes, productivity software, and cloud. Many (not all) Microsoft products have "alternatives", but a lot of companies are Microsoft shops since they're the one-stop shop for a lot of an enterprise's software needs. But at the same time, many other companies may go with AWS or Slack or Zoom or Google Workspace and just use Windows and Office.

The one-stop shop analogy can be said about networking with Cisco and Huawei respectively for enterprise and service-provider roles.

Docker has essentially become plumbing. Plumbing that isn't exactly BSD-friendly so we have to rip apart Dockerfiles and build systems in order to put newer software in Ports. Hopefully Docker will eventually get abstracted out of DevOps so we are able to get portable software again. Or maybe what systemd was to the desktop, Docker is for the server: the thing we hate but have to deal with to get software out of it indefinitely. a pain for Ports maintainers but "loved" by developers who only think about Ubuntu on AWS or GNOME on Fedora.

Disclaimer: I work at Microsoft, but not on Azure. I do however deal with the Azure "Big Data" ecosystem heavily.
 
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