Solved Did anybody else notice that FreeBSD 12 only has an 18-month lifespan?

Customers want stability. New versions of an OS are unstable by definition. I still host on some FreeBSD 9.1 systems. Nobody is demanding we upgrade Apache 2.2 to 2.4. As long as a fairly late version of PHP runs, nobody cares what version of FreeBSD is running on the system

Once I, for lack of a better term, authorized myself (through the hole I found) into a local university website CMS. Guess what was there? Another person's PHP web shell, of course.
 
who uses freebsd for personal use? Bearded geeks?
I have, beardless, for 15 years but I did briefly use FreeBSD versions 1.5 or so way back when.
FreeBSD 5 and 6 literally didn't work
Hmm. I started my run with version 5. Seemed to work for me.
You run into MORE PROBLEMS upgrading to "new" software than you do "incompatibilities" with a 2 year old OS.
While some upgrades have had bumps in the road, they get fixed quickly, and the vast majority work well so I don't understand this comment.
New versions of an OS are unstable by definition.
That may be true of Windows and Linux but this ain't that and my company upgraded all our servers with every new version that came out.
As long as a fairly late version of PHP runs
Speak for yourself. We would never run PHP.
nobody cares what version of FreeBSD is running on the system
You're right. Customers don't care. Programmers and sysadmins do.
 
who uses freebsd for personal use? Bearded geeks?
I admit to having a beard.

... and I'm always years behind. ...You run into MORE PROBLEMS upgrading to "new" software than you do "incompatibilities" with a 2 year old OS.
While it is true that upgrades do occasionally cause problems, the advice of always running a multi-year old version is dangerous. So dangerous that it is really bad advice. If you care at all about security (and unless you have an airgap in your network and armed guards around your computer, you need to care about security), it is criminally bad advice.

New versions of an OS are unstable by definition.
As a generalization, that's nonsense. New version often fix old problems that caused instability.

Now, the opposite generalization is also untrue: Always running the most bleeding edge version is also not a good idea for a production system. The part where this needs skill and intelligence is finding the right compromise. And it is NOT multiple years old software.
 
who uses freebsd for personal use?

I do and have done since FreeBSD 2.1R when I used to buy CDs from Walnut Creek. Until I retired, I also used FreeBSD to automate the acquisition, transformation and publishing of legislation for a not-for-profit University-based institute which provides a website for free access to law.

I generally run the stable releases, although my two cloud instances of FreeBSD run release versions and take advantage of freebsd-update to stay update to date and upgrade to the next release.

The last version of Windows I ran that had any significant use was Windows 2000.

macOS gets a little more use as it runs a plethora of different operating system VMs for my hobbyist software development (Lazarus, Great Cow BASIC) and I occasionally use various Windows VMs for PIC microcontroller development in Pascal and C.
 
I admit to having a beard.


While it is true that upgrades do occasionally cause problems, the advice of always running a multi-year old version is dangerous. So dangerous that it is really bad advice. If you care at all about security (and unless you have an airgap in your network and armed guards around your computer, you need to care about security), it is criminally bad advice.


As a generalization, that's nonsense. New version often fix old problems that caused instability.

Now, the opposite generalization is also untrue: Always running the most bleeding edge version is also not a good idea for a production system. The part where this needs skill and intelligence is finding the right compromise. And it is NOT multiple years old software.

Any notion that Freebsd 12.0 was more stable than 11.2 when it was released isn't worthy of a response. New major releases are always buggy until .1. 12.0 is the "we need to get this out" release, and 12.1 is the "we have the bad bugs fixed" release.

Old code has bugs. New code has more bugs. Anyone who is a real programmer knows this. The more widely used and tested software is, the fewer bugs it will have. If I'm running a web server why in heck do I need freebsd 12 if I'm happily running 11.2?

Using "new" software only makes sense if you "need" something that's news. I'm not running Mojave because it offers me nothing I need and it will break 5 things I use every day. I don't upgrade my phone because doing so always breaks something.

I also don't buy a new phone every year.
 
I do and have done since FreeBSD 2.1R when I used to buy CDs from Walnut Creek. Until I retired, I also used FreeBSD to automate the acquisition, transformation and publishing of legislation for a not-for-profit University-based institute which provides a website for free access to law.

I generally run the stable releases, although my two cloud instances of FreeBSD run release versions and take advantage of freebsd-update to stay update to date and upgrade to the next release.

The last version of Windows I ran that had any significant use was Windows 2000.

macOS gets a little more use as it runs a plethora of different operating system VMs for my hobbyist software development (Lazarus, Great Cow BASIC) and I occasionally use various Windows VMs for PIC microcontroller development in Pascal and C.

I have 3 iMacs on my desk. Believe me it's way better than dealing with a "personal use" 'BSD or linux system
 
I have 3 iMacs on my desk. Believe me it's way better than dealing with a "personal use" 'BSD or linux system
I'm not sure what you are referring to in this case. I've only tried Apple products a couple of times over the last couple of decades and it seemed rather difficult to me, though that's probably more related to my lack of Windows skills.

Now if you're talking about ease of maintenance, I can see a possibility here. I assume that the user does not have to do manual updates, and not having to do that would certainly be easier.

The last FreeBSD update I did was disasterous, and it turns out I didn't need to do it. All is fine now, and I'm happy with my current 12.0 system. Somewhere there was a notice that came out that FreeBSD 11.x was beyond useable any more and I got paranoid and jumped when I shouldn't. This "upgrade talk" around FreeBSD doesn't help anybody. We could use a more professional approach, but I fear we don't have the manpower to do that.
 
The worst FreeBSD in my opinion was 10.1, mainly because freebsd-update on UFS and soft updates meant no rebooting unless I power cycled. And my home server in 2015 (a homebuilt PC) lacked IPMI (hello, desktop-grade hardware). I remember freebsd-update on my server while I was at college, and my then sister (now brother) had to unplug and plug the server for me. And that server ran my personal email.

My current home server is a HPE ML110 Gen10 with iLO (with a remote console) and ZFS-on-root 12.0-RELEASE so if my server locks up, I can reboot remotely.

Most other RELEASE versions are solid, I mean, there are less stable "stable" OSes out there/ Ubuntu was never my favorite for a reason, and that reason is not systemd (Fedora had systemd even earlier yet I hate Fedora less, just dnf is crappier than apt or pkg).

On the desktop, CURRENT has a few bugs here and there but I don't want my desktop to be OS frozen for 9-12 months before another RELEASE, I'll drive myself mad if I had to stay with an OS which is stuck in time for 10 months.
 
who uses freebsd for personal use? Bearded geeks?

I've got chinny-chin-chin whiskers and am a geek of sorts in this incarnation of my life but quit high school in the 10th grade. I taught myself to use every computer or OS I've ever used from an AppleII to Solaris but never worked IT in my life. Hardly paints me as a Ken Thompson clone. I use nothing but FreeBSD on a daily basis and am not lacking in any areas of functionality as far as my needs go for everyday desktop use. I currently have 5 laptops running FreeBSD, one running OpenBSD I rarely use and could not be happier with it as an OS.


I've used FreeBSD in a "company" (and BSDI before) since the mid 90s and I'm always years behind. FreeBSD 5 and 6 literally didn't work (and were slower than 4.7), so we skipped them; what was that, 3 years? You run into MORE PROBLEMS upgrading to "new" software than you do "incompatibilities" with a 2 year old OS.

I didn't start using a FreeBSD clone till 2005, finally fleeing that feckless flock from frustration in a fulminating firestorm to FreeBSD and Freedom in 2012. Without delving into detail it was a similar situation to the one you describe that effected everyone using that version of their product but a wily wolf in wool.

You obviously are more schooled in the intricacies of FreeBSD than I, but I never have a problem keeping my boxen running. That's probably because I keep my system updated to a current RELEASE, stay current on # freebsd-update fetch and patch any vulnerabilities for 3rd party programs as soon as possible. I would consider anything less poor Admin skills for myself as a home user.


Customers want stability.

My desktops could not be more stable and I wouldn't have it any other way or people would be hearing about it. I have a plethora of screenshots posted, one at 306 days uptime for the Thinkpad X61 laptop that served solely as my .mp3 player. It stayed offline in that role so I never updated it since it could not have been running better.


New versions of an OS are unstable by definition.

Please provide facts to back up your claim about FreeBSD. I just updated one of my machines to FreeBSD 12.0-RELEASE-p10 and it's been running like a perpetual motion machine the 10 days since without any intervention on my part. I did another when it came out, have one left to do and always do a full rebuild of the system. Most problems people post about in that forum are from upgrades. An upgrade making more sense for a business where time is a factor.


As long as a fairly late version of PHP runs, nobody cares what version of FreeBSD is running on the system

I'd consider that poor practice by an Administrator for a "company". But then I'm just a home user who doesn't know beans from frijoles about Corporate Policy in such matters. Previous point of poor executive decisions or principals pertaining to perceived plebeian pinheads patronizing their product principally not pertinent to this post.

Please enlighten me how that works out to be good security practice for a company, or an acceptable level of service to your paying customers who expect "Professionals" to be handling their data in a Professional manner.
 
The person is condescending because he is blaming others, much of which it has nothing to do with, for his frustrations: I'll scapegoat, and not respect others whose duty it is not to please me, so I can feel better. You prefer a paid product, one that had the benefit of FreeBSD, even if it is no longer in the product itself. So why are you telling us so much if you don't like FreeBSD?

A dropped release won't receive security fixes, and that could only work if a system is offline, and doesn't have important data or a sensitive function. A release towards the end of its cycle, it will have less bugs, but the longer it is dropped, it will be full of security bugs, security holes that get listed on various mailing lists. Any existing bugs on an unsupported release won't get fixed by FreeBSD. Non-security bugs may be rare on a non-supported release, but you would have to fix them if you came across them. For security holes, you would need a team to secure an unsupported release. An unsupported release would have to be forked then have a team secure it. You may get a highly functional OS using an unsupported release, but it will be vulnerable, and most of its vulnerabilities will be ones that are widely known for longer periods of time, instead of closer to zero day bugs.

I see you complained about having to fix a problem every time you installed FreeBSD, then said certain mailing lists were closed. Why wouldn't you use the regular mailing lists that are open to users. They usually address things. Bug reports are also open for reporting such things.

Open source communities don't need stuck up attitudes, that you think people should drop what they're doing on your whim.
 
...when I used to buy CDs from Walnut Creek.

Fond memories of those days, went to a convention in the early 90's and picked up a big old stack of those Walnut Creek releases. Was a Windows user and wanted to see what else was out there for personal use. I tried a number of products including FreeBSD along with various flavors of Linux. I was attracted most to Debian mainly because of their package manager, was far ahead of everything else at the time. Though in hindsight I wish I had stuck with FreeBSD, would have been a better investment. BTW, I have a beard but I definitely would not consider myself a geek.
 
I'm guessing you had the good fortune of never using FreeBSD 5.
I never had problems with 5 but I do remember the UFS1 -> UFS2 migration. Which I screwed up, because I didn't read UPDATING.
 
I never had problems with 5 but I do remember the UFS1 -> UFS2 migration. Which I screwed up, because I didn't read UPDATING.
Ah, yes. That was the one time you actually had to drop into single user mode to correctly update, if memory serves. Honestly that's the one part of the updating guide that I always skip, though I think the guide itself has since been updated as there are no plans for a UFS3?
 
I'm lost.
The point is the lack of communication, right.
So why arguing about the consequences of the change ?
(Changes arrives, we all need to adapt our strategy with that fact)
 
I'm guessing you had the good fortune of never using FreeBSD 5. ;)

Well I'm only 22, younger than FreeBSD and many of its users. I'm not those people who came into FreeBSD in the mid-90s, I wasn't even born then (I was born in 1997). I'm growing up with people who think everything should be in Docker containers on Ubuntu on AWS, and I'm here wanting physical servers and manually configuring them the hard way. In fact, I run my own email (though on a VPS, sadly, but on FreeBSD) when everyone else uses Gmail.

In the FreeBSD 5.x days, I was only 6. I know 5.x was bad from what I read, but I started with 9.0, and have never really used <9.0 (I tried a few earlier releases briefly going down to 2.x in various VMs and emulators, but that's it).

I actually played with MS-DOS and Windows 3.1/95/98 when I was 8-10 on old 90s hardware and MS Virtual PC (no kidding), but evolved into more of a FreeBSD person as I grew older (I started when I was 15) and this remains true to this day.

But even FreeBSD 10.1 isn't nearly as bad as the mess that is Docker. I have to use Docker for one course and one research project I am taking in college and I don't like Docker that much. The research projects thinks it's a good idea to build glibc and NaCl in Docker when overlayfs limits a container to 10GB by default. I took a week to get out of this mess. In comparison, writing three patches for the FreeBSD kernel for my new HP laptop took only a fraction of the time.
 
Ah, yes. That was the one time you actually had to drop into single user mode to correctly update, if memory serves. Honestly that's the one part of the updating guide that I always skip, though I think the guide itself has since been updated as there are no plans for a UFS3?
Well it would not displease me if someone made UFS3 with compression,dedup,unlimited snapshots,dynamic growth. :)
 
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