(desperate plead) Please allow viewing forum from non-javascript webbrowsers!

E

entikan

It is currently impossible to view important hints and tips from the forum without a javascript-enabled graphical browser. This means it is impossible to read the forum when you don't have a working video setup (like when installing on an obscure machine or using a lot of SSH or, god forbid, I simply don't -want- a full-stack graphical web browser).

This makes debugging things like X11 or Wayland extraordinarily annoying when you've found a post-title describing your exact problem with the word (solved) in front, only greeted by the following:
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your
browser before proceeding.

You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites
correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
Click to expand...
(As displayed in Lynx and Elinks)

The words "alternative browser" awkwardly links to a google website urging you to install Chrome of all things, which feels kind of antithetical to the whole FreeBSD experience.

Curiously, the posts are readable in Dillo which also doesn't have javascript, but does need X or Wayland.

Or am I missing something here? This does not help my irrational hatred towards the modern web. And before any naysayers going "yeh it's bad but whatyagonna do javascript is everywhere", no it is not, the Arch Linux user forums work fine in Lynx, including login and registration.
 

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entikan said:
It is currently impossible to view important hints and tips from the forum without a javascript-enabled graphical browser. This means it is impossible to read the forum when you don't have a working video setup (like when installing on an obscure machine or using a lot of SSH or, god forbid, I simply don't -want- a full-stack graphical web browser).
Click to expand...

Understood. It's a bear.

entikan said:
This makes debugging things like X11 or Wayland extraordinarily annoying when you've found a post-title describing your exact problem with the word (solved) in front, only greeted by the following:

(As displayed in Lynx and Elinks)
Click to expand...

[ Unfortunately this unlabeled boxed section which I could read - re JavaScript being disabled plus out-of-date browser etc - disappears when replying to your post. I've never understood why or how that happens. ]

entikan said:
"yeh it's bad but whatyagonna do javascript is everywhere", no it is not, the Arch Linux user forums work fine in Lynx, including login and registration.
Click to expand...

Well it kinda works in 'links', which I generally prefer to lynx in recent years, though it's rather laborious bypassing the main freebsd.org website links, but I got to and could read your post, and could have downloaded your picture.

I managed to log in, view my profile etc (with JS disabled warnings, but not the Old Browser ones) and after viewing your post it was possible though fairly awkward to reply to your quoted post. Ok for a quick post I guess.

So links might work for you, for small values of 'work'.
 
This is a XenForo software package used for this forum. I presume there is no such ability to have a text only output so that's that.

I agree with smithi that it's not 'impossible' to read the forums but it is more difficult.
 
You could just write your own tool to scrape information from the forum and you can read in your own display format. I'm pretty sure you don't have to have JavaScript to log into the forum so it should make it pretty simple to create your own tool.
 
That's just going to happen with Lynx, other CLI browsers. There's still a problem with other graphical browsers. I've tried CLI browsers and a few less capable graphical web browsers before, and they are difficult to use. It's more of a last resort. Luckily, when my FreeBSD system isn't up, I can use my phone. In the past, I've resorted to using a Rescue Linux distribution.

Something like what you're asking would take using another type of forum software, maybe one that relies on PHP. I doubt they would be willing to change that, at least not any time soon. Changing software, may even require the need for a restart of the whole forums, and putting the previous forums in archive form, unless the data can be exported to something like XML or CSV.

I wonder if there are forums of other BSD's which don't rely on Javascript. When your browser doesn't have Javascript, there's a lot you can't do on the forums. Also, CLI browsers are difficult to use on their own without that problem, they're mostly good for reading information.
 
LibreQuest said:
You could just write your own tool to scrape information from the forum and you can read in your own display format. I'm pretty sure you don't have to have JavaScript to log into the forum so it should make it pretty simple to create your own tool.
Click to expand...
Xenforo has an API which you can use, so you could even create an interactive TUI:

REST API | Developer Documentation | XenForo

Developer documentation for XenForo
xenforo.com xenforo.com

sidetone said:
Something like what you're asking would take using another type of forum software, maybe one that relies on PHP.
Click to expand...
Xenforo is written in PHP (on the server-side).
 
smithi said:
So links might work for you, for small values of 'work'.
Click to expand...
Thanks so much! I can confirm and this actually relieves a lot of my pain. I wonder why it works on links and not on any of the others.

sidetone said:
I've tried CLI browsers and a few less capable graphical web browsers before, and they are difficult to use. It's more of a last resort...
...Also, CLI browsers are difficult to use on their own without that problem, they're mostly good for reading information.
Click to expand...
These are just opinions, and ones I do not share at all. CLI browsers are a lot easier on the mind for me because it exposes me less to unnecessary shapes, colors and images (not to mention auto-playing video, bad/broken css and/or tracking whathaveyous) which continuously stress me. I only have so much mental energy to spend. This is a serious accessibility issue.
I mean I'm willing to go without a whole lot of the internet if it means I can browse in peace but please at least let me have my FreeBSD forums.
 
entikan that also happens to my newspaper when I have it thrown on the lawn during rain season. When there is a post box, all is fine. Yes, that is some extra resources I need to spend.
 
covacat said:
the template was badly hacked and it has some closing coments as --!> instead of -->
Click to expand...
Seems this is fixed now. But wouldn't it be possible to remove this paragraph from the template instead of commenting it? :-/

On the general topic: It's not just XenForo. It's at least 95% of all web software in existence nowadays. This plague has spread to a point of no return.

No, I don't call Javascript a plague. You can do lots of useful stuff with Javascript and greatly enhance a web UI. See also the "progressive enhancement" design principle. But what you find nowadays is software that requires Javascript to work at all, and that's what I call the plague. And it's not only full software packages (like this XenForo), but also libraries, frameworks, etc. The only way to have web software not requiring Javascript nowadays is build it all yourself from scratch. At work, we wanted our web UIs to follow the "progressive enhancement" principle, and we finally gave up for exactly this reason.

On a side note, Javascript is also a privacy concern. "Fingerprinting" a client is extremely simple with Javascript enabled, for example, no cookies needed. That's why you'll find a few surprising web apps without any Javascript and still offering lots of features in the darknets...
 
in dev tools the node tree is fixed (thats why chrome works without js and the page is rendered properly) but view source will show the problem
it auto fixes unclosed elements and whatnot
i have a w3c validator as a plugin, this is how i spotted the error
 
Due to the general interests and focus of the users of this forum; I possibly believe *some* extra consideration could be taken for those running more exotic browsers (though this is limited since the usage of an off-the-shelf forum software).

However at the same time, I understand that the web is a cesspit and that everyone, admins included have much better things to do than to massage websites.

Also, the mailing list and IRC exist exactly for those people who don't want to use the current "standard" web.
 
entikan said:
*Calls newspaper* Hello, I can't seem to read your newspaper, I only see blotched ink and spots.
Newspaper: Take it up with Fred's Ink, they produce the actual ink we use in our printing presses. This has nothing to do with the news.
Click to expand...

I take it you're calling from a payphone here?
 
Missing the point. I wasn't arguing I need to be able to read the paper without the demanded paper-reading-device, silly as such a device would be. I meant that it's kind of illogical to point users/subscribers to argue further up the supply chain as a response to a remark about the end-product.

Whatever the case, I still think it's very un-BSD to demand working video drivers and hardware capable of running one of the two over-engineered web-browsers before one can read valuable information about the operating system. It's also crazy that the message I get recommends installing Chrome, as to my recollection there is no port for it. And this javascript toxicity is not strictly necessary because there are plenty of forums that do not have this requirement.

But I do get that the cat is out of the bag now and it'll be too much work to revert the choice of back-end and everyone has the case of the "well the web is what it is I don't like it either butwhatchagonnado".

Using Links works though so I'm happy and done here :)
 
drhowarddrfine said:
entikan The thing is, it's easier to install forum software from XenForo than to write our own. I don't know that there is a text only forum software available.
Click to expand...
the forum works without js, it just bombs in w3m and other text browser because it servers invalid html (which is an easy fix, don't know why it hasn't alredy been fixed)
 
covacat said:
the template was badly hacked and it has some closing coments as --!> instead of -->
that prevents browsers like w3m displaying it
Code: 
    <!--  <p><small>
                Karma: 2<br/>
                Posts: 2
            </small></p> --!>
Click to expand...
Those templates are horrid to be honest. Not the actual templates but how they're all strung together to form a "page". Anyway, found it in the message_macros template and corrected it. But I'm not sure if it's the right one I edited, your fetch doesn't give me any output anymore, so I guess it was the right template.

And browsers are supposed to be somewhat lenient when it comes to syntax.
 
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