Amiga vs Atari ST

Pick one! (Or two or three)


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AFAIK AutoCAD was dongle protected from v2.1, and (at least here, in Serbia) every professional had to include their AutoCAD sn on the plotted drawing if wanted it legally accepted. But there were ways
I don't know the details-I just know everybody (but me) was using a black copy of AutoCAD at my U.
 
The PS/2 was actually a baby compared to the larger machines like the AS/400 or RS/6K's. They don't make 'em like that any more! 😅

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You see, that's quite a clever and humorous advert. The machine sits quietly in the corner, doing it's work, never complaining, never crashing, 100% uptime, never needing attention, just like Gilfoyle's server 'Anton' in SV (or rather, not like Anton, you won't have to knock a hole in the wall to cool this one down). So the boss has a trouble-free life, he looks around for something to do to pass the time and waters the plant with a big smile on his face because everything works and he has no 'excitement'. He doesn't care that it doesn't do 3-d graphics. And that is how you sell a business machine :)

The same guy bought 200 PS/2 model 80s for his companies 30 branch offices spread across the country... and that was the high-margin market ibm was going after. They weren't bothered about trying to sell something to the spotty-faced kid who wants his dad to buy him an amiga for christmas and tells dad it will help him with his homework (yeah, honestly, I can do maffs on it...)
 
Ah well, a privateer had a license from the king to go and attack spanish gold galleons sailing back from the mines in south america, capture the gold, give a share to the king and keep the rest. Whereas a pirate like 'blackbeard' was completely independent and lawless, outside the control of any state, at least in the carribean. Now I'm not going to mention the barbary pirates at this point because it gets complicated... :)
 
well most of the warez here came from ex Yugoslavia. for ST and PC.

ex YU was ages ahead of us in home computing.
We had more ability to travel to the West, so it was easy to smuggle in computers, few companies had license deals with DEC and Honeywell-Bull, and we were better at stealing – even our school computer TIM011 was actually copy of Steve Ciarcia's MicroMint SB-180.
tim011_early-768x664.png
 
The PS/2 was actually a baby compared to the larger machines like the AS/400 or RS/6K's. They don't make 'em like that any more! 😅

View attachment 23603

You see, that's quite a clever and humorous advert. The machine sits quietly in the corner, doing it's work, never complaining, never crashing, 100% uptime, never needing attention, just like Gilfoyle's server 'Anton' in SV (or rather, not like Anton). So the boss has a trouble-free life, he looks around for something to do to pass the time and waters the plant with a big smile on his face because everything works and he has no 'excitement'. He doesn't care that it doesn't do 3-d graphics. And that is how you sell a business machine :)
What about IBM Z computers? They are basically an old-school minicomputers/mainframes (or as IBM would call them, a "midrange computer"). If I won the lottery I would buy one just to say I own one, and because minis are just kinda cool.
 
Erm... Z is massively multi-core mainframes nowadays. Not a mini, you're thinking of DEC or HP. There are people who collect and rebuild old mainframes. Yeah you need a lot of wad to buy one.

You can check out what Dave Jones made of this old mainframe cpu from 1991 (that's a "multi-chip module" to you!). When you watch the video, bear in mind this thing is 35 years old. Now imagine what the modern ones are like. :cool:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQ3oJlt4GrI
 
What about IBM Z computers? They are basically an old-school minicomputers/mainframes (or as IBM would call them, a "midrange computer"). If I won the lottery I would buy one just to say I own one, and because minis are just kinda cool.
Z/Architecture is Mainframe, nothing mini nor midrange about them. If you want your own mainframe, you can do it like Moshix did in this video, stick S/370 control panel sticker on Rpi case, install emulators/hercules, use TK5 for MVS, or if you own your copy of Z/OS install that, and you are good to go!

BTW, wrljet included in his hercules-helper script support for FreeBSD, so if you want latest SDL Hercules version, built from that.

Oh, and I have script on my github which was for simplifying all that process on FreeBSD, but it's outdated now, I have to revisit that and update it one of these days...
 
Z actually uses its own architecture that is not POWER. Also, I think they (at least the single-frame versions) are small and cheap enough to count as a mini. It is the difference between Ludicrously expensive and Ludicrously expensive + 1 ;)
 
Hmm, yes maybe they make a small version that could be called a 'mini'. To be honest whenever someone says mini i think of classic DEC and Data General... the definitions are probably a bit more blurred nowadays. Personally I always equate Z to mainframe.
 
Ah, could be, I may be mixing it up with rs/6k which do use POWER. I actually thought the Z cores were based on the power architecture too, or perhaps they used to be, but I'm no expert on this stuff.


Their latest machines use the 'Telum' processor which has an on-chip AI accelerator, which is interesting.

Apparently the new Z computers are still backwards compatible with old ESA/390 binaries.
 
The "Amy" was a game changer. I have seen a lot of amazing innovations on Amiga over the years.
What I (being from Atari tribe) always appreciated about Amiga WSs is how upgradable they were. For example, 2000 could be used comfortably even in the late '90s if it had few consecutive upgrades. That's rare for any other machine that I know of. Some Mac and PC could be upgraded one gen up and that was it (not talking about keeping case and replacing whole MB and all else, that's not "upgrading")
 
It always interested me that the ussr had a huge number of zx spectrum clones. Long after they stopped being used here, and many of them much better built than the original sinclair junk (well, almost anything was better than that).
The Z80 was a perfect value for money match: low price, small die, so cheap to produce (and easy to copy) while at the same time very powerful for its time (speed and instruction set), so suitable for a very broad range of applications.

It had no chance to keep up with the shortly afterwards launched more powerful, larger, and more expensive, also congenial 68000 on the homecomputer market. But in contrary to its larger competitor the Z80 was a way better match for smaller, cheaper, less energy hungry machines, so way more than in homecomputers used in automation and embedded systems. I bet there are many devices on this planet still running a Z80 as their core inside.

As crappy as those Sinclair's were, they were the cheapest homecomputers available. I was a child back in those days, so of course thrilled by computer games, so the Sinclairs were no match to me for other homecomputers. But because of they contained a Z80 they had been the better match to start with. Looking back for some one wanted to start seriously on computers, which meant learn to program, it meant Assembler. That meant to get a very good base for programming and computering in general. So the small, but fast, flexible and powerful Z80 had been a better start into computers than the more complex 68000er, which had been "level 2".
Many people started their computer careers on Z80 based machines. All I know once started on a Z80 and stayed in computers became very good hackers.

Looking back those crappy keyboards of the Sinclairs were also a decisive drawback. It was no fun at all to type anything longer than the few commands needed to load a program with those.
Recently I got my C64 out from its cardboard box and was astonished of its key's quality - not bad at all!
Maybe if Sinclair produced a useful keyboard around the Z80 even more had been sold - I don't know.
It's ancient history anyway.

However, there are reason why Z80 and 68000 still until today are the processors sold most (AFAIK - correct me, if I'm wrong.)
 
Z actually uses its own architecture that is not POWER. Also, I think they (at least the single-frame versions) are small and cheap enough to count as a mini. It is the difference between Ludicrously expensive and Ludicrously expensive + 1 ;)
There are many interesting discussion points here. First, while it is true that the "instruction set architecture" of the Z series is not Power, the actual CPU chip in a Z is actually very closely related to the highest-end PowerPC chips. The two processor families are usually co-designed.

The smallest Z that exists is a single "frame", and that means a whole rack. And those racks are exceedingly heavy. One of the reasons is that they are built much more densely than consumer- or rackmount- computers, due to the availability of water cooling. For installation on plants that don't have cooling water available, you can get a separate water/air heat exchanger (which is a second rack). Until recently, anyone who installed a Z also needed to have a fill/drain tool (which is also the size of a rack). The newest models come pre-filled with fluid, which makes it easier for small sites and for transportation. Large sites (with multiple Zs, each being several frames) have it easier, since they always have cooling water infrastructures.

But even if a single Z is "relatively" small (only two full-height racks with the heat exchanger), it still won't boot, because it needs a disk drive. The smallest disk drive one can buy is a Shark, which is yet another rack (officially they're called ESS or DS8000). And a single-rack Shark is a small machine, with just many dozens of spindles. In the late 2000s or early 2010s, there was a much smaller version called "Reef" (DS6000), which was rack-mountable. It was an economic disaster, as nobody was interested in small sharks. So in practice, I think the smallest boot disk (known as "file" in IBM language, which uses "CKD" as its protocol) would be a third rack. My favorite Shark was the "Megamouth", which was installed in the same lab my cluster sat in: it was a double-size rack. Good machine. Weighed 2700 pounds (1200 kg).

I don't think IBM Zs are ever actually sold. As far as I've heard, they are "rented", in a strange fashion: the cost depends on actual usage, like having a cloud account. But it starts around a M$ per year, which is why even inside IBM, actual Zs are very rare.

Apparently the new Z computers are still backwards compatible with old ESA/390 binaries.
And with 360 and 370 binaries. I've heard of people running 50-year old compiled code for fun; around the 50th anniversary of the 360, that was considered amusing.

In the 1990s or early 2000s, there was a bit of uproar (mostly laughter) when IBM discontinued the parts of the mainframe instruction set that allowed "binary compatibility" with IBM 1401 code (it was mostly emulation). I think that happened in the transition from the System 390 (a.k.a. ES/9000) to the 64-bit capable Z. As a reminder: The 1401 was introduced in 1959.

We can all laugh about how old-fashioned and irrelevant IBM is. But what we forget is that it is still one of the largest computer companies. As an example: While Oracle made the news today (their stock went up so much that Larry Ellison was the world's richest man, overtaking Elon), IBM is larger than Oracle by most metrics (number of engineers, total sales, ...). Only the FAANG+friends are larger. And why is IBM so large? Because there are many customers out there who are still buying IBM's products and services. And why do they buy them? Because they are good and cost-efficient.
 
people bought them for games. very few cared about the keyboard. there was the spectrum+ with a better keyboard but was not very popular.
Most, yes. But not everybody.

And of course the Sinclair with the better keyboard didn't sold well. It was more expensive. For not so much more you got a C64 or CPC464 which also not only had the better, but way more games.

It's not all 100% vs. 0%
If I say 'all' or 'most' I mean app. ~70...90% And yes, even if it were 99% you may find that 1% that's otherwise.
But that does not prove anything.

As I said somewhere above: Within the world of free markets there always at least three aspects to be looked at the same time:
technology, society, and business
Everything always is kind of a mix of those.
If something becomes the best technology available, it's luck.
What's best for society may be decided in the long term.
But in short and midterm business always wins.
Who could you have sold a computer to in those days?
Kids.
What do kids want most?
Play.
So yes, of course, most of the times it was all about games.

Just like today kids want a Windows machine with colorful blinking watercooled CPU, and a bleeding edge graphics adapter - because that's where the most thrilling games run on.
And, please, don't come with the 0.1% of kids, that start on a TTY only FreeBSD learning Python, just to prove not all kids like games only. And yes, I know, also adults find fancy colorful flashy hardware thrilling - beancounting brings us nowhere.

But those were also the days when computers entered homes, and became accessable for anybody. And some also used their chance to get one for not to play with them, or at least not only. Because most here were either kids in those days, or not even born yet, while those who did not (only) played with them are not posting in the majority here.
But they do exist.

The popularity of a computer was also decisive for the user.
In those days people could only meet in person, maybe give a phone call ("landline" - wired - you all know that yourself!) So, if "hackers" wanted to share their experiences (and black copies of games, of course), especially want to learn programming together, you better had a machine everybody else had. For that Sinclairs were also a drawback - at least in the 1980s in Germany they were more the exotic kind of machine. Most had a C64, followed by the CPC464 on second place, and later the Amiga, or Atari, this topic is actually about.

But besides we are talking pre-ST/Amiga era, so offtopic, my post was about why the Z80 resp. its clones were so popular in eastern europe those days - not why computers sold best.
And especially not, which computer were best.
And again while it's ~80% vs ~20% it is of no use to argue if it were 79% vs 21% or 82% vs 18% ...

Bottom line:
This is all fourty years ago ancient history. It's over. This is just another nostalgia thread again. It's about telling war stories from the trenches, and not about who knows what about computers, FreeBSD, and programming today, which is all what really counts.
 
We can all laugh about how old-fashioned and irrelevant IBM is. But what we forget is that it is still one of the largest computer companies. As an example: While Oracle made the news today (their stock went up so much that Larry Ellison was the world's richest man, overtaking Elon), IBM is larger than Oracle by most metrics (number of engineers, total sales, ...). Only the FAANG+friends are larger. And why is IBM so large? Because there are many customers out there who are still buying IBM's products and services. And why do they buy them? Because they are good and cost-efficient.
I agree, and for the only thing that I'll want to add to this, please let me quote myself, from correspondence with Ed Jaffe on Twitter (~2018):
"That's exactly a thing which fascinates me about mainframes - with ages only hw is getting vintage, but no sw is too old to be run.
Took me years to understand that IBM is not about making computers nor sw - IMO it's about continuous way of solving problems which scale in time." /q
 
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