About taxes

Life is littered with examples of things that transform into stupid with oversimplification. I think these are good sources of inspiration for artistic expression.

I don't know why so many people believe in the magic spells and scrolls (the constitution) which were supposedly cast by a bunch of old guys (nodisrespect) a long time ago (and maybe women(lol)).

Just do what I do: stay broke (0%), and live with your mom forever cuz shell never die and always take care of me, and use the free innanet which is technically yours because your the man of the house.

The credit score? who cares, I hate sports.
 
Sounds a lot like SovCits.
No, this this a very serious problem: for everything you hear and that does not conform to the endless stream of lies in the media, you wanna stuff it into a cardbox labelled something. This is the issue of today, and the typlical reaction. People dont think anymore about that is said, they only ask for the label of a packaging, then to decide on that. People dont care anymore about what is said, only about who says it.

Now getting to the topic, I have a quest open, this is a lifelong challence... The challenge is to find any identifyable difference between a governemnt and organized crime. And nobody ever could come up with any.

So what BobSlacker say, it is the logical consequence, and it doesn't matter who say what, because the law of logic and evidence is valid universally.

It is not my claim, it is the practical definition of taxes.

1. A group of people (self-proclaimed as a state and/or government) ask you for money.
2. If you give them your money they will leave you alone.
3. If you don't give them your money they will prosecute you.
4. If you protect your assets and/or avoid prosecution, they will try to get your assets by force.
5. If you respond to the aggression they will kidnap you and/or kill you.

So, theft by definition. I would go far and call it theft with threat of assault,
Yes, this is exactly what organized crime do.
 
I'm happy to pay more taxes if this means affordable (preferably free) healthcare and education for everyone.
 
Tax is in fact, extorted from the population - whether it's VAT, income tax, local authority taxes, etc - and that money is then used to pay politicians, pay for government sponsored schemes which usually only benefit a few, (or "support" an already super rich hereditary monarchy), bankroll the development and purchase of weapons, military action, etc, etc. The funds from taxation eventually finding their way back into the coffers of rich individuals and corporations... it's also spent on policing, but only just enough to support enough policing to protect the assets of the rich and ensure there is sufficient man power and equipment to suppress riots.

The government takes your money and passes it onto cronies, contractors, big corporations... many of whom lobbied the government, many of who's boards of directors are full of those same politicians or their families.

So unfortunately, taxes mostly being spent on "public services" is a complete myth. Especially considering that more and more public services are sold off or contracted out to the private sector.
 
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I'm happy to pay more taxes if this means affordable (preferably free) healthcare and education
This is not logical: If you want healthcare and education, then just do it: take responsibility, stand up and engage.

Instead hiring some "people" to extort money from others in your name, in order to (purportedly!!) do what you want, that is not only cowardly and dependent, and it also shows contempt for others and disrespect of freedom - but most importantly it will serve to sustain and expand an apparatus which will soon become a criminal organsation (if it isn't one already in the first line), instead of doing any good.

for everyone.
Yes, thats the catch-all gotcha: It must always be "everyone", because that will never be achieved. You cannot count everyone, there will always be somebody who slipped through. And that is the important justification to show the obvious need to increase totalitarism, suppression and surveillance ever further!
 
This is not logical: If you want healthcare and education, then just do it: take responsibility, stand up and engage.
I'm privileged enough to not have to worry about the costs. But many people aren't that lucky. Don't you think everyone deserves good healthcare and education? Or at least have the opportunity to get it, so it's not only the rich people that benefit from those opportunities?

and it also shows contempt for others and disrespect of freedom
So aspiring to give everyone the same opportunities and benefits somehow shows contempt and disrespect? I think you got that backwards.
Yes, thats the catch-all gotcha: It must always be "everyone", because that will never be achieved.
Maybe, maybe not. I think it's good if you at least try to include everyone.
You cannot count everyone, there will always be somebody who slipped through.
So because you can never achieve that goal it's not even worth trying? Things aren't black and white you know. There's a very big grey area between the two extremes. If we can only get to 90% that would be still be worth it.
 
If you didn't pay taxes, how would the government provide the services they offer or pay for road construction, defense, and so on?
Its a general problem:
On one side is the demand that government should manage public services, like road construction (infrastructure, healthcare, education). Most people will agree to that, but the effect is that over time this takes away more and more of your freedom, and it most likely ends in heavenly peace for those who are unwilling to cherish the services of the government.

On the other side liberals may demand that all public services should be provided by companies and regulated by free market. And that doesn't work either - because the consumer is not really free to decide if he wants to buy water/transport/etc. or not. So what you get is again an overgrowing apparatus of regulations, and an evergrowing heap of buerocrats moving papers from one desk to another without achieving anything, but being very happy that they can feed their lifetime on the taxpayer and never need to fear to loose their job.

So, both results in the same end and doesn't work, the discussion is futile.

But, what we must not forget: for 100'000 years we lived as hunters&gatherers without any government, and that did work perfectly, because otherwise we weren't here.
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On the other side liberals may demand that all public services should be provided by companies and regulated by free market. And that doesn't work either - because the consumer is not really free to decide if he wants to buy water/transport/etc. or not.
I would agree, a completely free market for public services doesn't work either. Go take a look in Denmark. A lot of their healthcare is free, but if you want something different or extra you can pay for those with an insurance company of your choice.
But, what we must not forget: for 100'000 years we lived as hunters&gatherers without any government, and that did work perfectly, because otherwise we weren't here.
Sure, but that doesn't work anymore since we started conglomerating into cities. So for the last 6000 years or so we've needed some form of regulatory body, i.e. a government. Anarchistic societies didn't fair well.
 
But, what we must not forget: for 100'000 years we lived as hunters&gatherers without any government, and that did work perfectly, because otherwise we weren't here.
In the past the government has been a priest, the head of the clan or such. They have not been elected but felt more or less responsible for the community because their existence depended on the community. For the actual politicians their monetary benefit has the highest priority. They get their pensions, almost independent of their efforts for the people.
 
I'm privileged enough to not have to worry about the costs. But many people aren't that lucky. Don't you think everyone deserves good healthcare and education?
Absolutely not!
  • Healthcare is a madness: organized healthcare creates more than half of the illnesses. Ivan Illich explained that already 50 years ago - healthcare is an evergrowing moloch of useless therapies. He says, the problem is that politcal responsibles do not question the usefulness of healthcare-products, but only demand that the most expensive stuff must be available to everybody. (And people are supposed to think that receiving expensive therapies instead of proper treatment makes them more equal.)
  • Education is not something you can put into people, it is something the individual must strive for on their own. What you can provide is just facilities: a good basic education of reading and writing and critical thinking, and then accessibility of knowledge.
    Now after probably three dozen "school reforms" in the last half century, just go and talk to an elementary class teacher and ask them what has become of this all.
The defect with both matters is the same: the believe that you just need to fill in therapy into people to make them healthy, that you just need to fill in education into people to make them knowledgeable. And that this stuff that you "fill in" has only a price-tag, and you need to extort that money from the taxpayers in order to get what you want.

But it doesn't work that way. Healing, as well as learning, is a process of self-responsibility: you cannot do it for others. Putting that responsibility into the government just takes away self-responsibility from the people and, consequentially, makes them less educated and less healthy.
In (western) Europe you can see that effect whereever you look.

Or at least have the opportunity to get it, so it's not only the rich people that benefit from those opportunities?
That might have been a topic 50 or 100 years ago, when there still were opportunities reserved for the rich.
Back 50 years ago when I grew up, the only opportunity I couldn't have was a motorcycle with 16 years, so I could impress the girls. Even the working-class sons had one. But there was nowhere an issue with not getting any kind of required learning stuff if you would want to get it.

The current business-paper discussions about a lack of skilled/educated workers is entirey a lie. What they want is not skilled workers, what they want is trained monkeys to operate their GUIs. (Otherwise I wouldn't be longterm-unemployed.)

So aspiring to give everyone the same opportunities and benefits somehow shows contempt and disrespect? I think you got that backwards.
You cannot give whatever to whomever if it isn't your property at first. You just don't have opportunities and benefits to give to everybody. Neither does anybody. But making people believe that they would depend on "opportunities and benefits" to be received from somewhere, that already makes them less engaged and more waiting and demanding.

What You aspire, was already achieved 50 years ago. And it was achieved because we (and I count me among that) did fight for it.
Now this has become a kind of frozen religious matra that is ever recitated but can never be truly achieved (just like Jehova witnesses forever walk around and tell their story which never will be achieved), and does now only serve as an excuse to have the established powers gain more power (and these established powers are basically those who did fight alongside 40 years ago, but then got corrupted by politics - but they still strongly believe that their way is the only proper way, and therefore anybody critisising their way must be a nazi - like an EPROM staying with the believes they got programmed 50 years ago - and when they tried to use LSD to finally EEPROM their brains as Tim Leary recommended, they got a horror from realizing what freedom actually means).

So because you can never achieve that goal it's not even worth trying?
You should have asked that in 1960.
Consequentially, it was tried. Some things were achieved. Society and public services did change a lot. Sometimes to the better, sometimes to the worse.

But now continue just parroting the old matras without reflecting on current reality, without learning from what went good and what went bad in the recent decades, without reflecting about todays challenges, about the planetscope digital enslavement, etc. - I think that doesn't lead anywhere.
 
In the past the government has been a priest, the head of the clan or such.
Good one. Completely glossed over this fact. As hunter/gatherers there typically was an elder and/or shaman as an 'authority' figure. They ruled on conflicts between tribal/family members or divided the spoils of the hunt. Only a few people of the tribe hunted, and everybody within the tribe benefited from that. So there have always been a set of rules to live by. If you didn't follow the rules of the tribe/family you were usually kicked out (or simply killed). Some people seem to have a really romanticized version of life back then, you just lived on your own, doing whatever pleases you. It didn't work like that in reality.
 
Sure, but that doesn't work anymore since we started conglomerating into cities.
That is exactly the point! when things started to fall apart and buerocracy was invented.

And social sciences well know why that is the case: because the human brain can remember a personal relation to some 300-400 people at most (because that's the usual maximum size of a tribe).
And things appear to work well when there is a personal relation and common interest, they seem to work not so well in anonymity.

So for the last 6000 years or so we've needed some form of regulatory body, i.e. a government. Anarchistic societies didn't fair well.

Well, one could also say, after 6000 years it should be obvious that governments are the problem.
It's just that we still need to devise a scheme that is based on personal relationships and that can work in agglomerations, and that is self-organizing and self-healing.
For instance, I remember one being proposed, back in the 80s: https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/p-m-bolo-bolo

"Anarchy" is actually a cornucopia of ideas, which usually aren't well analyzed, because people are usually against anarchy, having the rigid believe that anarchy cannot work.
 
In the past the government has been a priest, the head of the clan or such. They have not been elected but felt more or less responsible for the community because their existence depended on the community. For the actual politicians their monetary benefit has the highest priority. They get their pensions, almost independent of their efforts for the people.
We have an accountability gap there, sure. But that is not entirely the point with taxes.

If you want to have things done, for the mayority, you need to ignore some people. You can't build any infrastructure today because someone has an acure spell of NIMB, be it roads, powerlines or railways. One of our southern parts had fought tooth and nail not to build long distance power lines or wind turbines. Now they demand the rest of the nation saves them. Had everyone listened to them, we would all be in big poopoo. You need to do things even if not everyone affected agrees. That also goes for taxes. We have good healthcare, we have passable roads, we have railways (see how I avoid saying they are "good"? They were privatized some time ago...), and we have taxes to pay for that stuff. And if you compare the quality of healthcare for joe sixpack in places where you have health insurance by law with places where it is free market, that result might shock you. In the US, Joe Sixpack is more likely to be deep-sixed when his health acts up than here. When I need to call an ambulance, I do not need to consider the costs. And I did several times in the past. Also, I do not need to stop at a toll booth for a bridge/highway/whatever. That's why I pay taxes. I can afford it. Heck, I could even afford not to pay them as I could do some shenanigans with my lawyer who files my taxes. But I won't. I like free education for everyone. We have seen what happens when an art student is denied university.

As for the amount, it is the dose that makes the poison. And as long as it is fair and anyone chips in, I have no problem.

And here is one to lighten the mood: In the past we had empires, ruled by emporers. Then we had kingdoms, ruled by kings. Now we have countries.
 
Some people seem to have a really romanticized version of life back then, you just lived on your own, doing whatever pleases you. It didn't work like that in reality.
You're not from New Hampshire, are ya?

I figured that if I could actually see where and what my tax dollars were contributed to it would be easy for me to enjoy (or, at least, accept) my participation. I'm also interested in eliminating the usefulness of any "not my tax dollars" argument.
 
Good one. Completely glossed over this fact. As hunter/gatherers there typically was an elder and/or shaman as an 'authority' figure. They ruled on conflicts between tribal/family members or divided the spoils of the hunt. Only a few people of the tribe hunted, and everybody within the tribe benefited from that. So there have always been a set of rules to live by. If you didn't follow the rules of the tribe/family you were usually kicked out (or simply killed). Some people seem to have a really romanticized version of life back then, you just lived on your own, doing whatever pleases you. It didn't work like that in reality.
Ah, now you see it. :)
That kind of "everybody-must-be-equal" fancy did never before work.

So what we have now is anonymous governments, mass governments stacked one atop of the other. These are an everlasting problem, as they always want to drift off in eiher the fashist or the communist totalitarism, and it takes ever ongoing effort to keep them in the unstable position in between.

This being difficult enough and not really solved, you want to put that everybody-must-be-equal (which has never really worked before) on top of it and make that a responsipility of that already malfunctioning government!

From an engineering viewpoint that is lunacy.
 
And here is one to lighten the mood: In the past we had empires, ruled by emporers. Then we had kingdoms, ruled by kings. Now we have countries.

I hope this and suggestions like it are in celebration of anthropology day somewhere on the planet and not the suggestion that we're permanently incapable of anything except some type of terrible (which makes this, today, our version of perfect).

I'm certain the lessons of history will remain clear to those who need to remember.

I'm not entirely sure why we (humans) have such a hard time relating to each other so much so that we have to recall the lives of the past to interpret and understand why or why not to do something in the present day. There are a few examples of leadership that still persist today that aren't voted upon that turn out to not be evil at all (according to most people, at least): your parents, and your boss*.
 
In the past the government has been a priest, the head of the clan or such. They have not been elected but felt more or less responsible for the community because their existence depended on the community.
Usually it was a priest, according to JGFrazer. And they were not formally elected - but this is a group relation, and a group will always choose a leader by social dynamics, and one could well call that an "election" - it is actually the natural, non-formalized way of election.

And if they failed, they could well be killed - or even feel responsible to kill themselves. But this idea has only survived as a stupid stance of crazy romantic relationships "if i loose you, i'll kill myself".
It is about love, indeed.

For the actual politicians their monetary benefit has the highest priority. They get their pensions, almost independent of their efforts for the people.
Nowadays, as a logical consequence of "everybody-is-equal", politicians demand for themselves the same right that all other people have; specifically: to do any- and everything that is not explicitely prohibited by law. So in fact their job is to move papers from one stack to another, while trying to exploit any and all means to enrich themselves unless it is explicitely prohibited. That's all, as for anything else they can hire [some friends as] consultants.
 
Corollary:
When I was in school, we had to decide upon one of four specializations: old languages, new languages, math/tech, or social-sciences/business (the fifth, music/arts, wasnt provided at that school).
It was clear to me that I was not very talented in languages (or just too lazy ;) ), and I was undecided between the other two, so I asked the teacher. And he was very clear about that: social-science is only for those who have no specific talents whatsoever.

So, these are people with no specific talent, and therefore dependent on social welfare or something similar. Which can be achieved in a couple of ways:
  • they can become company leaders and make others work for them
  • they can become teachers/therapists/mediators/etc. (Robert Bach: "you teach best what you most need to learn") and live off the taxpayer.
  • or they can become politicians.
In any case we must feed them thru, and that is what taxes are for.
 
Corollary:
When I was in school, we had to decide upon one of four specializations: old languages, new languages, math/tech, or social-sciences/business (the fifth, music/arts, wasnt provided at that school).
It was clear to me that I was not very talented in languages (or just too lazy ;) ), and I was undecided between the other two, so I asked the teacher. And he was very clear about that: social-science is only for those who have no specific talents whatsoever.

So, these are people with no specific talent, and therefore dependent on social welfare or something similar. Which can be achieved in a couple of ways:
  • they can become company leaders and make others work for them
  • they can become teachers/therapists/mediators/etc. (Robert Bach: "you teach best what you most need to learn") and live off the taxpayer.
  • or they can become politicians.
In any case we must feed them thru, and that is what taxes are for.
If politicians weren't necessary then everyone else would have to learn how to manage things themselves! Unfortunately, I think arguing that they were never necessary requires that everyone must being born at the same time to inherit the same human rules (which shouldn't need to be explicit as we all have the same requirements and deserve the same tings), among a number of other assumptions--lets not tunnel into this tangent, I have to work, too!
 
Back 50 years ago when I grew up, the only opportunity I couldn't have was a motorcycle with 16 years, so I could impress the girls. Even the working-class sons had one. But there was nowhere an issue with not getting any kind of required learning stuff if you would want to get it.
Who paid for that education? Did you or your parents pay for it? Or was it free (the government paid for it)? I was talking about being able to afford a good education if you wanted to get it. I got a reasonably high education, my parents couldn't afford it and I had to pay for it myself. I had to supplement the student grant I got by working odd jobs in weekends and holidays, because the grant wasn't enough to pay for the books, let alone the tuition fees. Have you seen the tuition fees nowadays? And student grants have all been reduced to nothing. It wasn't much when I got it, you don't get anything anymore nowadays. Now you can only get a government funded loan to pay for it. And once you finished your education and start participating in the workforce you immediately start with 50.000 euro (or more) debt you need to pay off. This loan was introduced as interest-free but there's now talk of adding interest on that loan. If you're smart and want to get a good education you shouldn't be held back because you can't afford it. You should have the same opportunity as the other smart person that happens to have rich parents.

I'm not suggesting everybody should be forced into a higher education. That would be somewhat ridiculous, not everybody is equally smart enough for it. On the other hand I also know plenty of people with university degrees that are just too dumb to grasp even the most basic ideas or problems. Then there's also a good chunk of people that would be smart enough for a higher education but chose to become a plumber, electrician, construction worker or some other skilled laborer because they simply enjoy doing that kind of work. Free education is about being able to choose to get it or not, regardless of your financial status.

Usually it was a priest, according to JGFrazer. And they were not formally elected - but this is a group relation, and a group will always choose a leader by social dynamics, and one could well call that an "election" - it is actually the natural, non-formalized way of election.
Your argument was that as hunter/gatherers we didn't need a government and we did well without it. My argument was that there has always been some form of authority, in other words, a governmental body. Be it a single or group of elders, shamans, priests or some other type of figure heads, naturally chosen or by birthright doesn't really matter, it's still a form of government. And the group/tribe/family as a whole took care of individuals because that's what social animals (that includes humans) do.
 
Free education is about being able to choose to get it or not, regardless of your financial status.

If you're smart and want to get a good education you shouldn't be held back because you can't afford it. You should have the same opportunity as the other smart person that happens to have rich parents.

I was talking about being able to afford a good education if you wanted to get it.

Agreed.

I think its funny how much we expect from each other when we're the least experienced and the least capable (e.g. our students and our elderly). However, nobody should need to go to college to be a valuable professional and nobody should have to offer their body to be expected to survive.

We're all born into the terrible, terrible, terrible "gift" of a life with some kind of traditions and expectations being forced upon us by our parents, who also had parents that did the same thing, and on and on. This seems to be the most logical point of origin for most of our "big problems".
 
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