2024: The year of desktop FreeBSD?

BSDs can't have this because neither it's necessary nor its possible to have a universal binary package manager for all Unix like systems unless we can translate every syscalls into native os syscalls dynamically. Running a containerised applications still needs a common kernel. BSDs being different is not equivalent to Linux distributions being different. Linux distributions still runs on definitive Linux kernel, even a highly patched Linux kernel would have very much similarities between them. The fragmentation is in userland
 
According to them, Mac stuff is actually on hold 😂

fr0xk : Linux has at least 5 different filesystems available, Slackware uses a pretty old kernel (which still supports firewire and i386, while more recent kernel versions have dropped support for that awhile ago). Linux as a whole switched from
ifconfig to ip (a pain point that I like to point out), and there's more.

Distros still have to keep up with upstream projects for various components like KDE, LibreOffice, Apache, Python, and more. Distrowatch is a good place to keep track of that. It is an enormous effort, every distro has its own policy on how to keep up with upstream. Yeah, security is a consideration, but so is availability of people who have a handle on the distro's build system and know what they're doing. Those people are volunteers, not paid engineers. Yeah, there are some paid engineers sponsored by Intel, AMD, Microsoft, NVidia, and more.

Then there's one camp that wants one set of components, next camp wants something different, the next camp doesn't like any options, so they roll their own. That's where the fragmentation is. You can certainly borrow Apple's playbook and put in effort to integrate friggin' EVERYTHING, and nail it all down. Results speak for themselves, Apple has more money than Uncle Sam. 😏
 
Personally, I propose that Linux distributions need these tools (systemd, flatpak, snaps and nix package managers ) in order to unify their massive fragmentation (even if we discount all derivative distributions and only consider parent distributions). What I don't like is enforcement of these tools

What's ironic is that the race to "solve" these issues by different distribution communities, results in even more fragmentation. Developers are still caught in a dilemma on which to choose with no future harmoniousness.

It's a never ending cycle of clashing philosophies and/or grabbing mindshare. Linux is broken by design. But hey, it's a convenient driver dumpster. ;)
 
Unix systems were originally, and still are, primarily designed for multi-user network environments. A graphical interface was not a top priority. ...
"Windows are for desktops and unixies are for servers. People who use windows in servers are idiots, and people who use unixies in desktops are geeks."
IDK who sad it, but I like it.
Nicely put (both of you).

Another interesting point is that windows originated from basically a shallow copy of the unix. They more or less copied the bare minimum to make a system capable to run applications, and then followed up only with what the customer base demanded.
And the customer base does not want a fully featured multi-user OS, they don't want to care about the OS at all, they just want to have it working.

And that is still the case: the customer base cares more about the beauty of their window decorations than the beauty of a well-designed OS.
 
Another interesting point is that windows originated from basically a shallow copy of the unix. They more or less copied the bare minimum to make a system capable to run applications, and then followed up only with what the customer base demanded.
Yes, and it is also well known fact that TCP/IP stack was originally developed in BSD. Do not know how it is today, but originally M$ took the BSD TP/IP code for Windoz.
 
Yes, and it is also well known fact that TCP/IP stack was originally developed in BSD. Do not know how it is today, but originally M$ took the BSD TP/IP code for Windoz.
Almost everybody did. It is ours. We made the Internet happen. <very big grin>
 
Almost everybody did. It is ours. We made the Internet happen. <very big grin>
And that seemed logical (at least to me 29 years ago) to pick for Internet services and operating system, where IP protocol is native to the system. That means BSD defined the standard and others needed to comply.
 
A lot of Linux distributions are used by casual desktop users (intermediate skills, who do more than listening to music and browsing the web, know a bit about few command line tools like adding or removing packages, but not to the level of Unix-bearded sed -i bunch of /([^.*]\ #// ) piped to other ${var@} piped to grep then piped to another tool with 7 parameters like -uAdgcrs) level too

Heh that reminded me of this fun line I made to launch surf browser with a game window (kind-of standalone):

Code:
GDK_BACKEND='x11' surf -a 'a' -b -D -f -g -I -k -m -n -S -t -x 'http://localhost:8888'
 
I have said this before in other threads, but thought of another way to say it here: [ feel free to correct me ]; Many governments and businesses and colleges and entertainment venues and workplaces, from about 2012? onward, impose a time penalty or a finanical penalty, of sorts, or BOTH, on users of operating systems that do not out-of-the-box include easy printer setup AND a wide variety of printers with which to print pdf's, jpg and/or png files, docx and/or spreadsheet files, AAAANNNNDDD all it would take to ensure a continuing larger adoption of this operating system is, for example, a readily available [ one for europe, one for the americas, ? a 3rd for ??? ] TESTED AS WORKING ecotank printer, preferably with copy capability, as well as a color laser, preferably with copy capability, and a 3rd, for about six printers from which to choose as a way to not inconvenience the user by having to use Windows or Linux also. I encourage anyone younger than I with more time and resources to spend some months or a few years in that endeavor... I for one would pay, say, $15 monthly for 3 years toward such an effort and if another 50 persons, would I think it could be paid for, the project participants, one in the USA or canada, one in Europe, a 3rd in ??? and by FreeBSD version 15 or 16, I envision 3 wiki pages " Freebsd working ecotank MFC, freebsd working color laser MFC, 3rd: ??? " to put prominently up at the main FreeBSD.org pages. Additionally, it could benefit longtime users whose printers cease to function as new. { I hope this post is grammatically correct, I am not very rested this morning, sorry! ]
 
I agree, if FreeBSD requires low resources. But unfortunately if we use Desktop. It is a bit difficult to install web browsers like Google Chrome or Yandex. I often experience failure to install both web browsers on the desktop. Is there any solution to help me install Yandex on FreeBSD desktop?
 
I have said this before in other threads, but thought of another way to say it here: [ feel free to correct me ]; Many governments and businesses and colleges and entertainment venues and workplaces, from about 2012? onward, impose a time penalty or a finanical penalty, of sorts, or BOTH, on users of operating systems that do not out-of-the-box include easy printer setup AND a wide variety of printers with which to print pdf's, jpg and/or png files, docx and/or spreadsheet files, AAAANNNNDDD all it would take to ensure a continuing larger adoption of this operating system is, for example, a readily available [ one for europe, one for the americas, ? a 3rd for ??? ] TESTED AS WORKING ecotank printer, preferably with copy capability, as well as a color laser, preferably with copy capability, and a 3rd, for about six printers from which to choose as a way to not inconvenience the user by having to use Windows or Linux also. I encourage anyone younger than I with more time and resources to spend some months or a few years in that endeavor... I for one would pay, say, $15 monthly for 3 years toward such an effort and if another 50 persons, would I think it could be paid for, the project participants, one in the USA or canada, one in Europe, a 3rd in ??? and by FreeBSD version 15 or 16, I envision 3 wiki pages " Freebsd working ecotank MFC, freebsd working color laser MFC, 3rd: ??? " to put prominently up at the main FreeBSD.org pages. Additionally, it could benefit longtime users whose printers cease to function as new. { I hope this post is grammatically correct, I am not very rested this morning, sorry! ]

I agree with the idea that the OS should have widespread printer support! I've only seen ads for eco-tank printers but like the concept! Kind of gross having to buy 1/4th the cost aftermarket cartridges that have counterfeit ID chips fall off em needed to bypass printer security I didn't sign-up for as an "update", but so far it's still working :p

On Linux I gambled between IPP and sometimes having my HP printer print blurry things, or socket/driver and wondering how long they'll keep that deprecated driver note around before finally axing it. I haven't gotten to printer config yet on FreeBSD, but I have a network printer that seemingly advertises every protocol under the sun and imagine I'll figure something out!
 
This ^

I think GhostBSD and NomadBSD project is doing something similar. But issues always comes from lack of driver support of Laptops and various other peripherals like M Audio sound cards, various consumer grade headphones, multi channel audio routing for studio recording setup and latency reduction generic driver such as ASIO4ALL etc
And from my point of view (so far) GhostBSD looks very good.
It installed on a new machine with a new download without issue. And really quick.
And it used (what I think is) a slightly patched installer - but indistinguishable from FreeBSD on the screen.
None of the endless, inescapable unsolvable messages such as "ubt0:ubt-bulk-read-callback 1131: bulk-in transfer failed USB-ERR_STALLED"
It also uses the standard repositories and pkg etc.
I'm still getting to grips with MATE as a desktop - but that is probably a good thing, as KDE Plasma now seems to have unsolvable multiple config file problems for some.
I have been using FreeBSD for 10 years, and it all came to a grinding halt and no advice on this forum helped - in spite of the first ubt issue being known about as a bug for 2 years.
I've kinda come to the conclusion that most of FreeBSD community is not really that interested in solving desktop issues - or is dismissively superior about them.
Superior comments from gurus just annoy - please don't do it.
Anyway, after a week or so, maybe I'll put some comments up - and if I'm wrong about all this, I'll admit it.
That's the way most of us learn.
 
I have said this before in other threads, but thought of another way to say it here: [ feel free to correct me ]; Many governments and businesses and colleges and entertainment venues and workplaces, from about 2012? onward, impose a time penalty or a finanical penalty, of sorts, or BOTH, on users of operating systems that do not out-of-the-box include easy printer setup AND a wide variety of printers with which to print pdf's, jpg and/or png files, docx and/or spreadsheet files, AAAANNNNDDD all it would take to ensure a continuing larger adoption of this operating system is, for example, a readily available [ one for europe, one for the americas, ? a 3rd for ??? ] TESTED AS WORKING ecotank printer, preferably with copy capability, as well as a color laser, preferably with copy capability, and a 3rd, for about six printers from which to choose as a way to not inconvenience the user by having to use Windows or Linux also. I encourage anyone younger than I with more time and resources to spend some months or a few years in that endeavor... I for one would pay, say, $15 monthly for 3 years toward such an effort and if another 50 persons, would I think it could be paid for, the project participants, one in the USA or canada, one in Europe, a 3rd in ??? and by FreeBSD version 15 or 16, I envision 3 wiki pages " Freebsd working ecotank MFC, freebsd working color laser MFC, 3rd: ??? " to put prominently up at the main FreeBSD.org pages. Additionally, it could benefit longtime users whose printers cease to function as new. { I hope this post is grammatically correct, I am not very rested this morning, sorry! ]
Y'know, there's a way to re-frame the situation:

The employer has an interest in employees being useful. To that end, the employer will take on the task of providing and maintaining tools for the job. Yes, that includes computers. If an employer-issued computer doesn't work, that's an easy fix - either you get somebody knowledgeable to fix the problem, or you get a new machine, within a reasonable amount of time. If you have non-standard stuff that only you (out of everybody in the workplace) know about, you're on your own to fix it within a reasonable amount of time. And if you spend too much time fixing the issues on your own tools, instead of doing work that you're paid to do... then maybe using employer-issued machines\OS is not such a bad option.
 
And from my point of view (so far) GhostBSD looks very good.
It installed on a new machine with a new download without issue. And really quick.
And it used (what I think is) a slightly patched installer - but indistinguishable from FreeBSD on the screen.
None of the endless, inescapable unsolvable messages such as "ubt0:ubt-bulk-read-callback 1131: bulk-in transfer failed USB-ERR_STALLED"
It also uses the standard repositories and pkg etc.
I'm still getting to grips with MATE as a desktop - but that is probably a good thing, as KDE Plasma now seems to have unsolvable multiple config file problems for some.
I have been using FreeBSD for 10 years, and it all came to a grinding halt and no advice on this forum helped - in spite of the first ubt issue being known about as a bug for 2 years.
I've kinda come to the conclusion that most of FreeBSD community is not really that interested in solving desktop issues - or is dismissively superior about them.
Superior comments from gurus just annoy - please don't do it.
Anyway, after a week or so, maybe I'll put some comments up - and if I'm wrong about all this, I'll admit it.
That's the way most of us learn.

GhostBSD seems to be delivering what FreeBSD couldn’t, especially on the desktop front. The fact that you had to deal with that USB error for years without any real help from the FreeBSD community speaks volumes about priorities of FreeBSD which seem more interested in servers and dismiss anything desktop-related as beneath them. If GhostBSD keeps holding up, it proves that the issue isn’t BSD itself, just the people/developers ignoring basic usability issues on desktop. When something works, it works—no excuses. ZFS on root is one example of that on FreeBSD
 
Linux is broken by design.
Linux is not broken by design.
Linux is just a kernel. And you're not supposed to run a kernel itself, but a product built on top of that.
And there are only few Linux-based products on the market. The rest of the distributions are just crap for people who like to waste their time in useless stuff.

But hey, it's a convenient driver dumpster.
When there will be something really better than it, I'll happily agree with you.
Right now, though, things are not that simple.
 
Traditionally, in open-source, users handle packaging for their operating system, unlike commercial software where the company does it. Now with flatpak or snaps, both Linux users and companies can package based on the same package manager. Stable distributions can run these package managers on top of a package manager that handles and upgrades core system components separately. The core system components like the kernel, init, loaders, network stacks, and tools are responsible for being maintained by distro maintainers, and other desktop packages can be shipped via container formats such as flatpak or snap. That way, even more open-source developers will not have to deal with the fragmentation of different file systems, or other missing/incompatible components or libraries of Linux.

Personally, I propose that Linux distributions need these tools (systemd, flatpak, snaps and nix package managers ) in order to unify their massive fragmentation (even if we discount all derivative distributions and only consider parent distributions). What I don't like is enforcement of these tools

BSDs can't have this because neither it's necessary nor its possible to have a universal binary package manager for all Unix like systems unless we can translate every syscalls into native os syscalls dynamically. Running a containerised applications still needs a common kernel. BSDs being different is not equivalent to Linux distributions being different. Linux distributions still runs on definitive Linux kernel, even a highly patched Linux kernel would have very much similarities between them. The fragmentation is in userland
Flatpak and snap are just obscene.
They were never the solution in the first place, just like containerization was not a solution in server-space. And more and more people are opening their eyes, finally.

The false myth where commercial applications couldn't port their software to Linux due to the fragmentation of its ecosystem was always a plain lie.
And the fact that even now that Flatpak and Snap are here to """"solve"""" this problem, no one is porting any famous commercial application to Linux is proving my point. No Photoshop, No Microsoft Office etc.
If someone wanted to distribute proprietary software on Linux, he could just:
  1. statically linking his application;
  2. distributing a dynamically linked binary with its own dependencies packaged in the same TAR, like VirtualBox and VMware Workstation and even ANCIENT games like Uplink do since always;
  3. producing binary for the most common distribution (Ubuntu/RHEL).

That said, the real problem with Linux (and modern UNIX in general) was the pushing of the concept of dynamic linking too far that produced dependency hell just for running an application. And that just because false arguments like:
  1. you could just recompile a dependency without recompiling the entire application;
  2. you could get better security;
  3. you could run applications faster;
  4. you could get smaller applications.
The first point was invalidated by something like OpenSSL and GLIBC, with its own versioned symbols, many times. It was also invalidated by the rising of Continuous Integration, where you're going to recompile your software many times anyway. There are also things like ccache that helps people when they're are recompiling stuff many times.

The second point was invalidated by huge security holes like LD_PRELOAD and LD_LIBRARY_PATH.
The Umbreon rootkit was a clear demonstration about how false security in dynamic linking is.

The third point was invalidated in computer science since the debate between microkernels and monholitic kernels. Eons ago.
And we're still waiting for a technical demonstration about how a binary that have to rely to the ELF loader to scan recursively for dependencies can start faster than a binary that has every routine it needs built-in.

The fourth point was invalidated by using a more sane libc than that huge amount of crap that is GLIBC, and also by Mac OS X since it uses static and mixed linking since always.
Even its progenitor, NeXTSTEP, adopted that kind of linking, in a period where memory/CPU/storage were a tiny fraction than what we have now.

Think about it: with a statically linked binary you could run a 32-bit application in a 64-bit environment without installing any 32-bit library.

And the adoption of workarounds like huge tarballs, with the binaries and their dependencies distributed together, or like Docker containers is a just a prove of that. And even Go and Rust, that were designed to statically linking their binary by default, is another prove of that.
 
The fact that you had to deal with that USB error for years without any real help from the FreeBSD community speaks volumes about priorities of FreeBSD which seem more interested in servers and dismiss anything desktop-related as beneath them. If GhostBSD keeps holding up, it proves that the issue isn’t BSD itself, just the people/developers ignoring basic usability issues on desktop.
The fact that I have to deal with my PC hardware not being supported by MacOS for years without any real help from the Apple community speaks volumes about priorities of Apple, which seems more interested in smartphones and dismiss anything desktop-related as beneath them. FreeBSD works on the same hardware, which proves that the issue isn't MacOS itself, just the Apple developers ignoring basic usability issues on desktop.
 
GhostBSD seems to be delivering what FreeBSD couldn’t, especially on the desktop front. The fact that you had to deal with that USB error for years without any real help from the FreeBSD community speaks volumes about priorities of FreeBSD which seem more interested in servers and dismiss anything desktop-related as beneath them. If GhostBSD keeps holding up, it proves that the issue isn’t BSD itself, just the people/developers ignoring basic usability issues on desktop. When something works, it works—no excuses. ZFS on root is one example of that on FreeBSD
Good summary. Thanks.
 
Flatpak and snap are just obscene.
They were never the solution in the first place, just like containerization was not a solution in server-space. And more and more people are opening their eyes, finally.

The false myth where commercial applications couldn't port their software to Linux due to the fragmentation of its ecosystem was always a plain lie.
And the fact that even now that Flatpak and Snap are here to """"solve"""" this problem, no one is porting any famous commercial application to Linux is proving my point. No Photoshop, No Microsoft Office etc.
If someone wanted to distribute proprietary software on Linux, he could just:
  1. statically linking his application;
  2. distributing a dynamically linked binary with its own dependencies packaged in the same TAR, like VirtualBox and VMware Workstation and even ANCIENT games like Uplink do since always;
  3. producing binary for the most common distribution (Ubuntu/RHEL).

That said, the real problem with Linux (and modern UNIX in general) was the pushing of the concept of dynamic linking too far that produced dependency hell just for running an application. And that just because false arguments like:
  1. you could just recompile a dependency without recompiling the entire application;
  2. you could get better security;
  3. you could run applications faster;
  4. you could get smaller applications.
The first point was invalidated by something like OpenSSL and GLIBC, with its own versioned symbols, many times. It was also invalidated by the rising of Continuous Integration, where you're going to recompile your software many times anyway. There are also things like ccache that helps people when they're are recompiling stuff many times.

The second point was invalidated by huge security holes like LD_PRELOAD and LD_LIBRARY_PATH.
The Umbreon rootkit was a clear demonstration about how false security in dynamic linking is.

The third point was invalidated in computer science since the debate between microkernels and monholitic kernels. Eons ago.
And we're still waiting for a technical demonstration about how a binary that have to rely to the ELF loader to scan recursively for dependencies can start faster than a binary that has every routine it needs built-in.

The fourth point was invalidated by using a more sane libc than that huge amount of crap that is GLIBC, and also by Mac OS X since it uses static and mixed linking since always.
Even its progenitor, NeXTSTEP, adopted that kind of linking, in a period where memory/CPU/storage were a tiny fraction than what we have now.

Think about it: with a statically linked binary you could run a 32-bit application in a 64-bit environment without installing any 32-bit library.

And the adoption of workarounds like huge tarballs, with the binaries and their dependencies distributed together, or like Docker containers is a just a prove of that. And even Go and Rust, that were designed to statically linking their binary by default, is another prove of that.

There’s a problem because not every application can be statically linked, especially desktop ones. Statically linked applications also lack desktop integration. Additionally, if a user needs to install GIMP and Firefox statically linked, they’ll download the same versions of libraries for both apps. Unlike Flatpak, where all applications share SDK dependencies, provide desktop integration, and offer easy updates (via both GUI stores and CLI).

The tar package approach has the same issue. One would need to extract over 10+ tar packages, which would take up more than 10+ GB, assuming they’re also available linked against musl libc distributions as used by Void and Alpine. Upgrading each package individually would be a hassle.

One thing to understand is that Linux distributions, despite having a command-line interface, are essentially a set of bin/coreutils glued together to mimic MINIX (a Unix-like OS for Intel). Over time, GUIs have been added, but the system remains fragmented across distributions, leading to duplicated workloads. Everything is dumped into /bin, even in Gentoo (by default). And there's also disagreements on what UNIX is. What Open Group consider as UNIX isn't sufficient for alot of people to consider as UNIX (some wants everything as file, including USBs). I'm sure alot of people won't consider macOS as real UNIX but AIX, HP-UX will. I know a Red Hat chinese fork has UNIX 3.0 certification too.

Now application port wise, in BSDs, or even HaikuOS/RedoxOS, there’s a clear separation between the base system and userland. The purpose of Flatpak and Snaps is to run GUI applications on top of a predictable unified base system. Sure it has pitfalls and bugs for now but last time I've checked, Silverblue, it was a solid system.

Proprietary applications were never the target, though it became a side effect.
 
The fact that I have to deal with my PC hardware not being supported by MacOS for years without any real help from the Apple community speaks volumes about priorities of Apple, which seems more interested in smartphones and dismiss anything desktop-related as beneath them. FreeBSD works on the same hardware, which proves that the issue isn't MacOS itself, just the Apple developers ignoring basic usability issues on desktop.
macOS is available as desktop operating system on Apple Hardware and Apple is a hardware company who builds good looking interfaces for a lot of people who cares about hardware integrations. I don't know what are you talking about by only being smartphones as their priority.

If you are saying you can't use macOS as server - Caching Server, File Sharing Server, and Time Machine Server packages are already bundled with every copy of macOS High Sierra and later. There's ZFS ported to all these popular platforms (but the integration in FreeBSD is out of the box which again says a lot of priority of FreeBSD). Windows have a server edition too. If you are saying you like the interface of FreeBSD over macOS and gets your job done, then it's irrelevant to our discussion. If you are saying people should not complain about lack of desktop focused tools and drivers for whatever reason because FreeBSD is a server OS, you are saying what I said "it speaks volumes about priorities of FreeBSD".

Now what did you actually trying to say? Or maybe you got triggered because FreeBSD's only priority is server and everything else is second class? I'm not triggered, it is what it is. Server is a second class citizen in macOS. People who use FreeBSD on desktop does so because they like the design of the system, actually they are more dedicated to that of people who are into jails and VM because it takes a lot of guts to run FreeBSD as a desktop operating system which has a lot complex and different interfaces talking to each other, and lacks out of the box support for things like drivers, proper routine channels for various hardware and networking interfaces and tools that's professionally recognised (like Final Cut Pro)
 
What's ironic is that the race to "solve" these issues by different distribution communities, results in even more fragmentation. Developers are still caught in a dilemma on which to choose with no future harmoniousness.

It's a never ending cycle of clashing philosophies and/or grabbing mindshare. Linux is broken by design. But hey, it's a convenient driver dumpster. ;)

Linux is fine actually, what's broken is the concept of Linux distributions. It's like communism - great on paper but fight over how to accomplish that goal is all over the place. Back in 80s, UNIX wars were fought and still being fought and no two people agree on what's a real UNIX. Is that the one certified by Open Group or the one that's direct descendent of original UNIX that ran on PDP-11 and so on.

Alpine Linux is a distribution that's mostly silent and gets to the point. It has its flaws, but not because of the distribution, but because of the ecosystem of Linux as a whole
 
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