What do you think about a "SteamBSD" machine ?

ZioMario

ZioMario

Hello.

I'm planning to build the first SteamBSD machine of the world. I will heavily modify the Linuxulator to make it perfectly compatible with 100+ Steam games. When this job will be completed,I will start thinking about which kind of dedicated hardware will be necessary to host the SteamBSD os. Isn't this nice ? Express your ideas,opinions,everything is welcome.

Thanks.
 
Multiple issues with the idea

How are you going to get round the anti cheat measures

Steam checks if its running on real linux and will instantly see its not
and its running using the linuxulator then probably triggers a ban

Vibe coding and constantly playing catch up to fix issues with Freebsd updates
and how it works with the Linuxulator or with updates to Steam

Poor hardware support for Freebsd

Just using Freebsd for the sake of it
 
NapoleonWils0n , agreed, though with these two points, there is maybe a little bit of merit:

NapoleonWils0n said:
Poor hardware support for Freebsd
Click to expand...
If you choose the hardware, it shouldn't be so poor. However, yes, if the SteamBSD is a "spec" so that people build their own, then it would limit it. I believe the early aim for Valve was to create a SteamBox spec but I don't know if they deviated from this. Maybe limiting the hardware selection *isn't* so bad. It works well for Apple to ensure consistency.

NapoleonWils0n said:
Just using Freebsd for the sake of it
Click to expand...
Many appliances (which the SteamBSD machine is kinda) have used BSD e.g:
  • Apple's timecapsule storage solution running NetBSD
  • NetVista thin clients using NetBSD
  • Consoles (Playstation 3+, Switch, PSP, etc)
It offers a much more sane, stable and "boring" base which companies tend to prefer to deal with.
The alternative (if doing this properly) is Linux+Busybox which isn't particularly better.

Though if all it is doing is using the Linuxulator anyway. Then just like emulating Docker (= Linux) on FreeBSD, I am not convinced at the benefits. The Linuxulator does have overhead.
 
Not liking the online login dependency with a remote file database. I would be interested in an attempt to create a base of offline working games that don't need a closed driver. Wine and Proton may add some to the list but they can't seem to make anything consistent enough to be reproduceable on a different systen without new requirements per game.
 
Well, the steamdeck hardware itself is well supported. The steam machine hardware also (both are nothing fancy). So, hardware support is not the issue.
From using an integrated radeon 780m, I know the weak spot is software. 6.12 DRM support is what you have at the moment, it doesn't matter that you use a compat/linux layer with upgraded support (rl9, cachyos, etc), that's the limit you get. While we do have proton and wine support both have issues specific for FreeBSD (lack of esync, ntsync, no cgroups, etc, poor support for 32bit).
Then you get to the stuff that makes steamos, on at least steamdeck, great, the level of integration with hardware (i.e. working si0x).

So, lofty goals, but maybe start small and get what support we do have to work correctly first: no rebar support on rdna4, xe graphics support, make guc firmware loading work with suspend, fix the lack of native vulkan support on compat/linux, fix the kmod repos, etc. Stuff that would benefit everyone instead of just "gamers".
 
Slower updates for Steam
because you have to vibe code fixes for every new version

Poor wifi support

Issues with getting anti cheat to work
and potential for getting your account banned

If you asked users if they want to use a vibe coded project to get Steam working on Freebsd
using the Linuxulator to translate sys calls instead of just using Linux

They are going to ask whats the point
Why dont i just use Linux
 
NapoleonWils0n said:
Multiple issues with the idea

How are you going to get round the anti cheat measures

Steam checks if its running on real linux and will instantly see its not
and its running using the linuxulator then probably triggers a ban
Click to expand...

I read about it. I didn't find a solution because the Linuxulator is not a real Linux box,so it will be identified as a cheat. I think if a SteamBSD machine will exist,it will run only not multiplayer games.

Vibe coding and constantly playing catch up to fix issues with FreeBSD updates
Click to expand...

To rebase frequently is not evitable. BUT,the heavy job is done at the beginning. When a DB of divergences has been created , the load will be tolerable,I presume.

So, lofty goals, but maybe start small and get what support we do have to work correctly first: no rebar support on rdna4, xe graphics support, make guc firmware loading work with suspend, fix the lack of native vulkan support on compat/linux, fix the kmod repos, etc. Stuff that would benefit everyone instead of just "gamers".
Click to expand...

Exactly. The idea is to buy 100 games and use them to extract from them the missing / wrong syscalls that crashes the Linuxulator. It will be more mature because I will try to make it compatible with 100 Steam games (the more relevant ones that will produce divergences for sure).

You're going to get burned out chasing upstream Linux. You're better off getting an Apple Silicon Mac Mini and throwing Crossover on it, or just buy a PS5.
Click to expand...

And where's the fun in doing this ? I'm not a gamer, I'm a geek. FreeBSD is my preferite toy because there is still a large areas of the OS that can be improved to play with. This is not valid for mac OS,Windows and...Linux.
 
To me that sounds more a job for NetBSD:
canvas.png


Sorry, couldn't resist it.

Seriously:
The idea is very good. No really, if it works, many players will be very grateful!
So, I really don't want to disencourage you. For sure not. Go for it!
But you post here to get some more feedback than just, 'Great! Do it!', right?
So, the point I see, besides what others here mentioned, that you may underestimate the effort, traps and gotchas such a project contains until it runs reliably foolproof for anybody out of the box.
Computer games are technically most ambitious and pretty tricky at the same time.
If it was easy, there already was something likewise.

The net is full of fancy ideas. Not a week passes by when I do not stumble over some entry on HN, 'I created ...', and I think, 'Wow! That's great!' And when I look at the according page in 99% of all cases it reveals, nothing is created. It's just a dream somebody has, most of the times not even remotely halfway done, sometimes not even started at all, yet. And I think by myself, 'Just do it, or beat it. Present something finished, something that works, or don't present anything at all. But don't bother others with ideas, only.'
There is no lack of ideas. Not even of good ideas. Not even brilliant ideas.
The point ain't having ideas. The point is realizing them.
There is no need for ideas, only for finished, working products.
In german we have a saying: "Es gibt nichts Gutes, außer man tut es." - 'There is nothing good, except it's done.'
Ideas and promises are nice, but only deeds count.
To get there - from idea/dream to something both actually existing and really working - is a long and strenuous journey many irredeemably underestimate.
Many repeat the chinese proverb,
'Also a journey of a 1000 miles starts with the single first step.'
That's right, but one must not miss, the journey is not finished just by being started. Unless also the very last mile is gone, the target ain't reached, yet, the journey not finihed.

My advice was, to do what is part of every project magament to be taken seriously: get some realistic idea of what amount of different kinds of work needed to be done, how many effort is needed for each (hours to work on), and then estimate added up hours needed to be done divided by the amount of people working X hours per day on it, gives the estimated months/years until it's finished, and so if it's realistically doable, or not.
If not, you may consider the idea to join some other project already existing to realize the same or similar target, like for example mizuma et al.

Again:
I don't want to disencourage you.
But it's always better to check first, if a target is realistic to be reached, before one starts running blindly into an endless desert and getting lost.
And the larger and unkown the desert, the better on checks more carefully before and plan ahead.
 
Maturin said:
To me that sounds more a job for NetBSD:
View attachment 27017

Sorry, couldn't resist it.

Seriously:
The idea is very good. No really, if it works, many players will be very grateful!
So, I really don't want to disencourage you. For sure not. Go for it!
But you post here to get some more feedback than just, 'Great! Do it!', right?
So, the point I see, besides what others here mentioned, that you may underestimate the effort, traps and gotchas such a project contains until it runs reliably foolproof for anybody out of the box.
Computer games are technically most ambitious and pretty tricky at the same time.
If it was easy, there already was something likewise.

The net is full of fancy ideas. Not a week passes by when I do not stumble over some entry on HN, 'I created ...', and I think, 'Wow! That's great!' And when I look at the according page in 99% of all cases it reveals, nothing is created. It's just as a dream somebody has, most of the times not even remotely halfway done, sometimes not even started at all, yet. And I think by myself, 'Just do it, or beat it. Present something finished, something that works, or don't present anything at all. But don't bother others with ideas, only.'
There is no lack of ideas. Not even of good ideas. Not even brilliant ideas.
The point ain't having ideas. The point is realizing them.
There is no need for ideas, only for finished, working products.
In german we have a saying: "Es gibt nichts Gutes, außer man tut es." - 'There is nothing good, except it's done.'
Ideas and promises are nice, but only deeds count.
To get there - from idea/dream to something both actually existing and really working - is a long and strenuous journey many irredeemably underestimate.
Many repeat the chinese proverb,
'Also a journey of a 1000 miles starts with the single first step.'
That's right, but one must not miss, the journey is not finished just by being started. Unless also the very last mile is gone, the target ain't reached, yet, the journey not finihed.

My advice was, to do what is part of every project magament to be taken seriously: get some realistic idea of what amount of different kinds of work needed to be done, how many effort is needed for each (hours to work on), and then estimate added up hours needed to be done divided by the amount of people working X hours per day on it, gives the estimated months/years until it's finished, and so if it's realistically doable, or not.
If not, you may consider the idea to join some other project already existing to realize the same or similar target, like for example mizuma et al.

Again:
I don't want to disencourage you.
But it's always better to check first, if a target is realistic to be reached, before one starts running blindly into an endless desert and getting lost.
And the larger and unkown the desert, the better on checks more carefully before and plan ahead.
Click to expand...

I'm stubborn and I'm also retired from work,so I have tenacity and time.
 
Maturin said:
To me that sounds more a job for NetBSD:
View attachment 27017

Sorry, couldn't resist it.

Seriously:
The idea is very good. No really, if it works, many players will be very grateful!
So, I really don't want to disencourage you. For sure not. Go for it!
But you post here to get some more feedback than just, 'Great! Do it!', right?
So, the point I see, besides what others here mentioned, that you may underestimate the effort, traps and gotchas such a project contains until it runs reliably foolproof for anybody out of the box.
Computer games are technically most ambitious and pretty tricky at the same time.
If it was easy, there already was something likewise.

The net is full of fancy ideas. Not a week passes by when I do not stumble over some entry on HN, 'I created ...', and I think, 'Wow! That's great!' And when I look at the according page in 99% of all cases it reveals, nothing is created. It's just a dream somebody has, most of the times not even remotely halfway done, sometimes not even started at all, yet. And I think by myself, 'Just do it, or beat it. Present something finished, something that works, or don't present anything at all. But don't bother others with ideas, only.'
There is no lack of ideas. Not even of good ideas. Not even brilliant ideas.
The point ain't having ideas. The point is realizing them.
There is no need for ideas, only for finished, working products.
In german we have a saying: "Es gibt nichts Gutes, außer man tut es." - 'There is nothing good, except it's done.'
Ideas and promises are nice, but only deeds count.
To get there - from idea/dream to something both actually existing and really working - is a long and strenuous journey many irredeemably underestimate.
Many repeat the chinese proverb,
'Also a journey of a 1000 miles starts with the single first step.'
That's right, but one must not miss, the journey is not finished just by being started. Unless also the very last mile is gone, the target ain't reached, yet, the journey not finihed.

My advice was, to do what is part of every project magament to be taken seriously: get some realistic idea of what amount of different kinds of work needed to be done, how many effort is needed for each (hours to work on), and then estimate added up hours needed to be done divided by the amount of people working X hours per day on it, gives the estimated months/years until it's finished, and so if it's realistically doable, or not.
If not, you may consider the idea to join some other project already existing to realize the same or similar target, like for example mizuma et al.

Again:
I don't want to disencourage you.
But it's always better to check first, if a target is realistic to be reached, before one starts running blindly into an endless desert and getting lost.
And the larger and unkown the desert, the better on checks more carefully before and plan ahead.
Click to expand...

Anyway,I've started this post to gather information on how you would implement the project in technical and operational terms.
 
Anyway,I've started this post to gather information on how you would implement the project in technical and operational terms.
Click to expand...

Your asking other people to figure out everything for you

If the Freebsd devs could fix the issues with the linuxulator then they would have
there would be posts on the mailing list saying we are working on cgroups or namespace

Thats the whole problem with using LLM's
when you have no understanding of the code and how everything works

It means you dont even know where to start

project = doa
 
I think the idea is fine, but the effort likely would be better put into getting proton and the related tooling running reliably on FreeBSD. It may very well be my own fault, but I haven't found it particularly easy to get steam-utils running on 15.x. Not that it's been a particular priority.
 
Its fine coming up with ideas
nothing wrong with that

But to make them work is another matter

It requires understanding the problems you are trying to solve
and that can only be done by reading all the man pages, documentation and code

Then logically thinking things through
sometimes trying dozen or hundreds of different permutations of combinations of code

Until you finally hit that Euerka moment when your theory proves correct

LLM's can be very useful but only if you know the problem you are trying to solve

Otherwise you are just typing into a text box
 
Its not meant that way

If you outline the project and how technically it works

And ask for peer review on the logic and code
then you might get some feedback

But the issue is finding any of the Freebsd devs on the forum
who know about the subject to get it work

And who are willing to spend days or weeks
going through all the code claude has created

I doubt anyone is going to read 1400 pages to be honest
 
NapoleonWils0n said:
Its not meant that way

If you outline the project and how technically it works

And ask for peer review on the logic and code
then you might get some feedback

But the issue is finding any of the Freebsd devs on the forum
who know about the subject to get it work

And who are willing to spend days or weeks
going through all the code claude has created

I doubt anyone is going to read 1400 pages to be honest
Click to expand...

This project is not easy at all. To improve the inner working of the Linuxulator in a relatively little time is not trivial. There is no code at the moment. I haven't included the strategic and operative plan because I knew that no one had the time and the will to read it. But me I have the time to read some interesting idea about how to implement the project. What should I do ? If the mountain won't go to Muhammad, Muhammad have to go to the mountain.
 
I think this is a great idea. My programming experience doesn't go much past "Hello World" and the whole AI/LLM thing is passing me by so quickly, I may never be able to jump onboard. I wouldn't have any good contributions from that perspective to help, but as a long-time technician/admin, I may be able to help with ideas.

From a technical standpoint, most games are rather similar, building with just minor variations of different game engines. Targeting the major game engines for functions will likely bring in a significant number of games without extra effort.

If FreeBSD is good enough for Sony to use for the PlayStation, it should be good enough to play PC games!
 
Beside your personal fun, what's the point in making something that will never work as expected?
Click to expand...

Its fine having a personal project

But if you are building stuff for other users its a whole different ballgame

Couple of major issues

1) Any game that uses anti cheat wont work
because it will detect that its not running on real Linux and using the Linuxulator

So you are already offering an inferior "product" to users

2) Constantly playing catch up
Every time Steam or Freebsd is updated you will have to fix any issues with Claude Code

Which will mean there would always be a delay between the release of Steam
and how long it takes you to fix any issues with Claude Code

So you will get users saying i just bought a new game
and it wont work because it need Steam 14 ( for example ) and your version is Steam 12

How long is it going to take to fix everything and update to the latest version of Steam

3 ) What happens if Claude Code goes down
sometimes LLM go down or new versions have errors

In which case you knackered

4 ) Its a money pit
You will constantly have to spend money on Claude code to keep the project alive
 
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