Anti-GPLv3, FSF, and RMS rant.

In my opinion, FooGPLv3 are better for proprietary dual-licensing than they are for actually helping the open-source community. The Tivoization and DRM clauses are obnoxious restrictions that make embedded use diffucult. What purpose do these even solve anyway? They are just ideology. How are you wronged if someone decides to publish your content locked to an account? I get you are wronged if they don't credit you or something, but this is overboard. The FSF has gone so far in it's pursuit of freedom that it now has more in common, in practice, with a proprietary software company. The rage against FreeBSD because it allows nonfree software in the ports tree is idiotic. It's your computer. You should be able to do whatever you want. They don't want to free you, they just want to be your master "for your own good". I think the FSF will become further and further irrelevant as their licenses will continue to impede the software commons, and as they push a GNOrwellian view of freedom. Oh. And RMS is a creepy piece of shit because if he does what he obviously does without saying it, he should get a life sentence and then some.
 
I was writing about what needs to be the definition of an optimal license and minimal standard definition for open source license on the side. Some parts of it hung me up on posting it yet. I was agreeing, but it looks bad for us, when calling out someone by name like that. I'm here to criticize decisions and ideology, not do that in a case like this. It makes me look bad for responding here, but I wanted to reply to the rest of it. It's fine to be frustrated over that ideology of licensing though. I'll get to the point anyway regarding licensing. I think that he's still hung up on over 30 years ago, how he made a piece of code, then someone made a derivative and closed it off, and was mad he couldn't use it. Now GPL is doing that in another way, by using a viral license. There's better and less obtrusive ways to preserve use of code. That's what weak copyleft, and permissive licenses which require marking where their code ends is about. That's why having a large enough organization or skill set to maintain code before it can be forked and made derivatives about to restrictive licenses or proprietary land is important.

Maybe, I can interpret, regardless of FSF's intents, that GPL is a placeholder. Also, if they don't adapt their licenses for GPL to allow dynamic linking in, it's time to replace it, and forget about compatibility. Take a look at Motif, Lesstif pressured them to make their product open for non commercial use, then later, when other X toolkits stepped up in capability, Motif became LGPL. In the meantime, Lesstif was a less capable replacement.

Apache 2.0 code's stated boundaries seems misused by GPL3.0, if I'm not mistaken
One point I wanted to address was: I didn't understand how come GPL3.0 can absorb Apache 2.0 code into it, where it seems like Apache's boundaries become GPL3.0's. Apache and GPL3 are two separate entities: GPL3 isn't an extension of Apache 2.0, to relicense it. Apache 2.0 states, code outside of Apache's license must be marked, so when GPL3.0 uses it, those lines become GPL3.0's lines, which Apache 2.0 has separate lines, and Apache isn't GPL, for GPL3 to do that. This annoys me. I see Apache as ideal for a permissive license. I either don't understand this correctly, or I'm correct that GPL3.0 does this to Apache 2.0 code. An ideal license wouldn't allow its own boundaries to get lost. If I were the steward of a license like Apache's, I'd feel GPL stepped on my terms. If a license has boundaries, those boundaries need to be kept, not messed up into a license which absorbs it. If GPL wants to use Apache code outside of it, great, if GPL wants to use Apache within its own code base, as long as Apache's marker lines are kept, which aren't GPL's file viral boundaries, or any other, including file based, which isn't going to Apache 2.0.

The way Apache needs to be used, is use it as a separate program, and make it a dependency. Instead of eating it up, add to it, fix it up, make another program which can adapt Apache code to your program.

FSF's acceptance of OSL
The other instance that slowed me down, was seeing how FSF accepted the OSL license. It's a reasonable license, and optimal for libraries, operating systems, drivers, and programs which many other programs depend on. As for a program that's on the top end, it's up to the author, whether they want to allow programs under different licenses to be dependent on it, or not. It gives hope, but someone pointed out, they make cases for being restrictive, and only allow linking when they have no choice. They're always going to want to restrict as much as they can, when it comes to other programs using GPL. I was arguing that the GPL needs to allow itself to use other licensed code through dynamic linking in. Depends how much control they want to exert, but there's no reason to restrict dynamic linking in both directions, depending on a software's purpose.

Purpose of kernels, operating systems and libraries
I thought about how opensource libraries, kernels and operating systems would have the need to limit which API or other interface layer should be. Linux has a specific API, where above that, any program under any license can run. FreeDOS limited itself from including software in its base, due to GPL incompatibilities. When I think of it, what's the purpose of an OPEN SOURCE library, kernel and operating system? It's for other programs to use! What's the author losing, by limiting which API is used, except for compliance to keep the customer base towards their product? If any API can be used, any programmer can add and replace parts they want to suit their programs, and fork it how they wish. This has the potential to take following from that other code. The PURPOSE of an opensource operating system or kernel is for it to be used, improved, by open source code. It's called OPEN SOURCE! So, a kernel or operating system, to be considered open source, it must allow dynamic linking from, an interface layer from (API, ABI for instance) standardly, and not through a said layer by the author. So, anyone can replace any layer with their own code, and suite of applications. OSL is perfect, but while it's incompatible with GPL, GPL kernels and Operating systems need to at minimum become LGPL or otherwise allow both dynamic linking and interface use out.

You make an operating system, and kernel under this license, and it doesn't need GPL. Except, hardware drivers need the amount of code that is under GPL.

Drivers need to allow use of itself regardless, independently of what uses it
In addition to that, you OWN a piece of hardware, so the optimal driver should work on it. As long as this piece of hardware isn't used for harm or other such messed up stuff, make the best use of it for your computer project.

One problem is, most drivers are under GPL, so it requires compatibility with that, and OSL can't use them. There's a lot of permissive license code being made, which can be used with OSL. A hidden benefit of GPL, is that code is open to be looked at, to be reverse engineered into permissive and file-based nonviral copyleft licenses.

If a driver is going to be made by a GPL license, it needs to be LGPL. If your hardware driver doesn't allow dynamic linking out, IT HAS NO BUSINESS BEING AN OPEN SOURCE DRIVER. It should be a driver to run a toaster, or a mechanical garbage can. Maybe NetBSD can help them out with that, since you can run any piece of hardware on it. If it can't have an interface layer from driver to hardware, it at least needs an Interface layer, but to be standard, it needs to have both. It can't be limited to a stated interface or program, it must be universal to any interface layer or any dynamic linking piece of code.

Dynamic linking in and/or out
It's why I believe that to be considered open source, code needs to allow dynamic linking in, and/or out. It doesn't necessarily need to do both, depending on purpose. OSI and FSF have their own standards and checklists for what's considered acceptable open source. I've roughly stated better minimal standards of open source, or what should no longer be considered open source, while still open software.

Allow dynamic linking and interface layer out for libraries, kernels, operating systems. Allow dynamic linking and interface layer out from hardware drivers in to kernels and operating systems. Considering the purpose of drivers, operating systems, and kernels, use OSL, because there's no reason to restrict, and no reason for GPL there. Maybe requiring and limiting which interface piece of code allows its interface layer out is about ego. LGPL is better, but hardware use is also needed. Dynamic linking in only is fine for top end programs, which use other libraries, and other programs can't use it.

Back to opening point
Some of what I had written down, got expressed here anyway.

After writing that, at the start of this post, now I remember problems about Stallman, so that's not good. I used to wonder if his GPL ideology had some relevance to that. I didn't want to insult people or be a part of it, but in light of that, whatever. Also, it's obvious to those who we want to convince to improve their license a little. At this point, we might as well, just support other code to gradually bypass GPL.
 
someone needs to create the "Canonical list of oss licenses that suck"
as a counterpart of the OS list and the hypervisor list

 
Apache 2.0 code's stated boundaries seems misused by GPL3.0, if I'm not mistaken
One was, I didn't understand how come GPL3.0 can absorb Apache 2.0 code into it, where it seems like Apache's boundaries become GPL3.0's. Apache and GPL3 are two separate entities, GPL3 isn't an extension of Apache 2.0, to relicense it. Apache 2.0 states, code outside of Apache's license must be marked, so when GPL3.0 uses it, those lines become GPL3.0's lines, which Apache 2.0 has separate lines, and Apache isn't GPL, for GPL3 to do that. This annoys me. While I see Apache as ideal, for a permissive license. I either don't understand this correctly, or I'm correct that GPL3.0 does this to Apache 2.0 code. An ideal license wouldn't allow its own boundaries to get lost. If I were the steward of a license like Apache's, I'd feel GPL stepped on my terms. If a license has boundaries, those boundaries need to be kept, not messed up into a license which absorbs it. If GPL wants to use Apache code outside of it, great, if GPL wants to use Apache within its own code base, as long as Apache's marker lines are kept, which aren't GPL's file viral boundaries, or any other, including file based, which isn't going to Apache 2.0.

 
It didn't answer my concern though. I'm aware of GPL2's incompatibility with Apache 2.0, and its due to the patent clause differences. I was arguing that GPL2, needs a GPL2.2, to allow it to use code through dynamic linking, while preserving not allowing dynamic linking out.
The Apache Software Foundation does not allow its own projects to distribute software under licenses more restrictive than the Apache License, and the Free Software Foundation does not distribute software under the Apache License.
I thought this was answering my concern, but it didn't. Though, it says, its own projects: Apache hosts its own projects. A project not hosted by Apache can use an Apache 2.0 license, which it stewards the license, so that piece of text doesn't cover that. CUPS for printing is an example of code which uses Apache 2.0, stewarded by that license, but not hosted by Apache. Apache is keeping its own hosted code clear from other licenses, much like how FreeBSD is keeping its licenses mostly permissive. Though anyone is free to make derivatives with other licenses, as long as its by the terms of the author's license outside of that.

It's still a good reference.

Aside from that, I was gathering other thoughts about how Stallman convinces people to use his strict ideology of licensing. I was also thinking about how Peter Saint-Andre and the creator of PDOS wrote about benefits of Public Domain, which the arguments also extend to MIT, ISCL, BSD and other permissive licensing. I was worried about code being blocked off from use by proprietary or by restrictive "open source" like GPL. Maybe, air, water and dirt can't be copyright, and there are many ways to write code once it's basic.
 
It didn't answer my concern though. I'm aware of GPL2's incompatibility with Apache 2.0, and its due to the patent clause differences. I was arguing that GPL2, needs a GPL2.2, to allow it to use code through dynamic linking, while preserving not allowing dynamic linking out.
There's the LGPL for that.

I thought this was answering my concern, but it didn't. Though, it says, its own projects: Apache hosts its own projects. A project not hosted by Apache can use an Apache 2.0 license, which it stewards the license, so that piece of text doesn't cover that. CUPS for printing is an example of code which uses Apache 2.0, stewarded by that license, but not hosted by Apache. Apache is keeping its own hosted code clear from other licenses, much like how FreeBSD is keeping its licenses mostly permissive. Though anyone is free to make derivatives with other licenses, as long as its by the terms of the author's license outside of that.
IANAL and this is not my knowledge domain. The Apache 2.0 license is the most used by containers projects and I haven't seen an issue with their heavy use of the Glibc, which is LGPL. podman for example is linked against glibc in Linux. I wonder how is the linking clause interpreted in interpreted languages.
 
I disagree with both the wording and the opinion.
Me too.

I despised RMS when he went to Venezuela and eulogized Hugo Chávez, but some far-left loonies went after him and this weirdo called Drew DeVault made a hit-piece smearing him.

I prefer RMS than the loonies that want to replace him.
 
There's the LGPL for that.
LGPL is so other programs can use it. I was saying that GPL2 & GPL 3 can't use all kinds of libraries, through dynamic linking, due to their own artificial restrictions. There needs to be an updated minor version of each, so they can use almost anything as dynamically linked for a library, including Apache 2.0.

Limitations and obstrusiveness of GPL
In another way, aside from being viral, GPL is the snake that eats its own tale. FSF argued that, code doesn't need to be accessible to companies, until there's open source that covers the functions of that code. On the other hand, advocates for Public Domain argue that, putting code into Public Domain means less restrictions and anyone can use it. I thought I saw a balance, how these two ideas can coexist, until, I realized how GPL keeps gobbling up and incorporating permissive code into its own code. It often does this, instead of merely using it by linking from it: it should improve that codebase keeping it permissive, or improve its own codebase to use it. When GPL gobbles up code, it takes derivatives out of the ecosystem, and it forgets the separation of which code is permissive.

License requirements for libraries and non-libraries
That makes the argument for permissive which requires other code not part of the license to mark itself, and for file-based nonviral. Like I said before, if an individual, group, organization, collective and/or foundation is able to stay relevant on coding, they get to maintain it, to make forking and gobbling up the permissive license pointless. The larger the codebase, the larger and more talent the entity needs in order to allow the permissive code which doesn't have commenting requirements.

If a project or individual doesn't have the resources, then, they need more protection in the form of file-based nonviral licenses. As they move slow, they'll protect their code from those moving fast to poach it to make derivatives under restrictive code.

In permissive licensing, marking the code which doesn't belong under the terms of the license is important. It makes code which incorporates it, protect those boundaries indefinitely, while it gets permission to use it. Say, a copy of that code gets lost, who can prove it was permissive to begin with? This while the more restrictive license runs off with it.

Patent clauses
While, I believe that patent retaliation clauses are important, for libraries meant for widespread use, they may not be practical. Odd how proprietary code is allowed to use code under those licenses, while GPL doesn't allow use of that code, if its patent clause differs by a little bit. Hence my argument that GPL needs to update itself.

For everything else, which is not a library, copy-left nonviral license is needed. A retaliatory patent clause is also ideal for such licenses, which aren't libraries meant for use by all programs.

Putting it together
There's a need to replace lower level parts of LGPL code with ISCL or a simplified BSD license and to keep them separate. For instance, Gtk needs to be forked and made to run on permissive Xt, which would reduce the codebase of Gtk under LGPL. It can go a step further, and Xt be ported into libxcb. That would be a good way to rewrite lower level parts of Gtk and Motif code, making future maintenance easier. It would also make the code more standard and compatible.

Take a look at what FreeBSD and NetBSD have done for permissively licensed hardware drivers and compilers. They've added their own BSD licensed code around GPL code, making great strides in replacing it. OpenBSD has done this for software too, though I'm more familiar with FreeBSD's and NetBSD's achievements in this.

What I meant to write about what makes an optimal open source license, and what is to be considered the minimum standard license, I've mostly already ended up writing throughout this thread. It was meant to go after: Thread open-source-licensing-which-allows-linking.99062. It was meant as its own starting thread, but I believe most of what I intended is in this thread, so that's good: the points are clearly made in a way that goes into a discussion.

FSF has convinced people to use substandard GPL
I noticed how Stallman convinced the owners of Hyperbolla to use GPL3. Before that, they were going to use a BSD 2 clause license. So, now they're rewritting CDDL parts, GPL2 parts and other parts. What a redundant waste of time, to conform to a bad ideology.

FreeDOS at one time considered having a permissive license, then its author was convinced to use GPL. Then, FreeDOS prevented itself from including programs that came with it, due to that.

Hyperbola and FreeDOS need to use LGPL, if they want GPL. There are better licenses, but at least LGPL allows compatibility for other programs to use these OS's, and allows everything else to use it. The only thing that restricts GPL is GPL.

Look at Wine: it's under LGPL3, to allow other programs to use it. Also, look at Linux, where there's a piece of code that is the API interface that allows code to use that, so it's not required to be GPL2 compatible.

FSF once convinced me that CDDL was bad. CDDL isn't bad: it was incompatible with GPL for good reason, and it's an acceptable license, unlike GPL. CDDL has clear set boundaries that don't overextend and it isn't viral. CDDL also doesn't force code in. It doesn't force other code to combo license with it to be used by it. It was a good blueprint for other non-viral file-based licenses. Then, projects which use GPL justify linking to CDDL. CDDL is meant to be linked to, but do it under the terms of CDDL, not an incompatible license. GPL wouldn't allow that to its code. It seems that GPL code threatens CDDL code by their choice to try to link, with the exception of the linking exception. A linking exception is fine, though it should be standard in the license.
 
It's a strange area too because one can see the rationale behind normal, proprietary licences. To make your business's secret sauce secret so that you can profit from the effort you put into something. It's money and theft of income, real things at stake.

On the other side of things, though, what is the rationale for licencing code you are giving away? It's already not secret. So while with proprietary licences the onus is largely on the business to keep a handle on the secrecy of the code, and only aks the law to step in if a motivated actor goes in and snoops it, open source licencing people are asking the law to come in and intervne to keep people from using information that they themselves made available.

If you're gonna share it, share it. No? Maybe that's too simplsitic.
 
What license to choose depends on the position of the person responsible to choose one.

For me, an amateur coder, BSD 2 (or less) clause license is the first choice for my codes / texts.

But "IF" I'm a CEO of IT company, the first choice would be proprietary license (would be something like "Borland's non-nonsense license statement") for the "paid retail" products. For anything else that can be distributed with open source (not at all including NDA'ed matter, including possible futures), GPL3 (including AGPL3) would be the choice "as a business person". And otherwise I cannot explain the facts to shareholders.

On the other hand, I'll disallow incorporating external and GPL'ed (possibly excluding LGPL2) codes into any of the retail products, disallowing any programmer in the company to read GPL'ed codes to completely avoid
pollutions.

Of course, BSD-compatibully licensed codes are allowed freely! As the codes CANNOT restrict the business. And for the reason, if donations to OSS communities are "socially" required, I'll choose BSD-compatibully licensed projects, not GPL'ed ones to help future businesses!
 
There's a famous case where the developer for chess.com's chess engine Fritz basically copy-pasted the open source Stockfish, changed some values, and marketed it as chess.com's own. Now, when I say that, I don't mean they went suing people who used Fritz code. I just mean that they took the source from Stockfish and monetized it, and made their own iteration secret.

The developers of Stockfish then went and sued chess.com in a German court. Under the Stockfish terms, something or another. Basically they claimed nobody had the right to profit from their code.

But that begs the question: why did you share it to begin with? Do you even have the right to tell people what to do with something you give away?

With proprietary licences, if you cannot show in court that you took reasonable steps to make sure people knew your code was secret and proprietary, you can't even sue for piracy. I mean.
 
What's really needed is a permissive license, which requires distributions of modified code to be disclosed, and which doesn't have a patent clause. One purpose of this is to gobble up simple permissively licensed code like Simplified BSD, MIT and ISCL licenses to preserve them in permissive form. The other purpose is to preserve original code in permissive form. Any derivative will be required to save this, so you can later extract the permissive code from them. These more restrictive and/or compatible derivatives will be required to do the job of preserving this code. The purpose of this license, including why it won't have a patent clause, is to be universally accepted for use as a library.

While I believe a patent clause is needed for all programs, a patent clause makes a library be unable to be used by certain licensed code which imposed unnecessary limitations on itself: case in point by GPL. This code will be protected in itself, because everyone will use it, and will defend the right to use it from patent trolls. Someone will slap a patent clause on it, and that will protect that derivative, and the identical parts of the license which doesn't have a patent clause on it. It will be absorbed by other open source licenses, which will protect it from patent trolling. Copyright law, states that copyright in itself protects it from patents. A patent retaliatory clause was extra discouragement from attempting to try to patent troll.

When not needed as a universally accepted library for all opensource or for any program not needed for GPL, slap a retaliatory patent clause on that, or use Apache 2.0.

Apache 2.0 requires disclosure of distributed modification through NOTICE. It uses a patent clause, which makes it not suitable for a library meant for use by everything. The patent clause is great, but limits its use for being a universal library. Apache 2.0 is great for everything else. It needs to be verified if GPL 3.0 respects this boundary of Apache 2.0 to disclose all modifications not freely available under Apache 2.0.

When you don't need a library, and don't need restrictions from it, use OSL 3.0.

There also needs to be a direct replacement for GPL, even if not compatible with GPL. It would be copyleft, and allow it to use dynamically linked libraries. This would replace GPL, because it won't allow other programs to use it, and won't allow linking from it. GPL still needs to have another minor version to allow it to use dynamically linked libraries. A GPL minor version upgrade isn't the solution, but is to supplement the availability of code to use more open source libraries.

Also, added interesting and updated information about licenses to: Thread open-source-licensing-which-allows-linking.99062
 
I liked RMS's stance with FOSS and GNU and don't have anything against either. I also like FSF.

I don't know licensing enough to discuss detail, but don't believe I ever ran into any issues related to licensing. I use software however I want :p and it's cool if it's open-source with code to look at! Distributing is a different ordeal though.
 
You don't own it. It's not proprietary, i.e. no one owns it, and it's freely available.

And you're legally allowed to tell people what they can or can't do with it?

Something shtinks.
 
It used to be that copyright only applied if infringement somehow affected you personally (that is, financially). That's why companies have to prove loss of income in order to sue for copyright infringement, and why fair use is a concept. If you can make use of proprietary copy to syphon riches from the owners, you are liable. But in a situation where you already forsook any option to enrich, indeed any formal ownership, then what? You end up in a weird situation where it's harder to enforce the protection of personal property where it can actually affect you personally than to enforce the protection of something that is not your property and the use of which cannot affect your personal situation in any way.
 
It used to be that copyright only applied if infringement somehow affected you personally (that is, financially). That's why companies have to prove loss of income in order to sue for copyright infringement, and why fair use is a concept. If you can make use of proprietary copy to syphon riches from the owners, you are liable. But in a situation where you already forsook any option to enrich, indeed any formal ownership, then what? You end up in a weird situation where it's harder to enforce the protection of personal property where it can actually affect you personally than to enforce the protection of something that is not your property and the use of which cannot affect your personal situation in any way.
I agree. The GPL utilizes copyright in the same fundamental way that proprietary licenses do. Stallman would say that it "frees the user", but at the basic level, it works like a proprietary license. I have a feeling that Stallman would have ended up making an SSPL-type license for AGPLv4.
 
You don't own it. It's not proprietary, i.e. no one owns it, and it's freely available.

And you're legally allowed to tell people what they can or can't do with it?

Something shtinks.
If that's in response to what I wrote, GPL does it all the time. If so, you're defending that more.

I'm arguing for the preservation of the use of code. It's there free to put into a license, such as GPL and proprietary, why not absorb into something which further preserves everyones future right to use it, instead of GPL. How GPL is worse than proprietary is, proprietary uses it silently. GPL crowd sourced everyone to put their contributions in, then locks away derivatives of permissively licensed code. GPL also openly tries to take code from companies' codes which linked to GPL.

Adding: even though gobbling up permissive code into a different permissive codebase with requirements to disclose changes which don't belong to the license, one is still free to use the originally licensed code. Though, if that gets lost, there are many derivatives which can preserve the code of this proposed codebase indefinitely, you just have to extract it, no matter how many times a restriction was put on derivative code that comes with it. Proprietary may not like it, because if PlayStation were to use it, they would have to do more than write, "contains BSD licensed code," they would have to additionally disclose to their consumers which of their code is permissive if under the disclosure clause license. They'll probably peel it back anyway, and use the version that came before that permissive license with a disclosure clause came about.

Now it seems that simply requiring them to write, contains BSD licensed code isn't enough. It's to advertise for BSD, but it doesn't say which code is permissive. It lets them be lazy on their end, to not have to disclose. Though, BSD has a record of its entire codebase, not everything else under the BSD license is under the FreeBSD or other major BSD history of its codebase.

Requiring to disclose which code base was used, but not which exact code is still permissive was a half-step, and for simplicity. Maybe it's time for more to use a license which requires that code which incorporates theirs have to disclose which is permissive under that license.

A file-based license which works like that could also be used. Instead of disclosing modifications, it's everything attached to it, or everything in the file or directory.
 
I gladly use a license that makes my code incompatible with the GPL. This is my own contribution to making open source fun again.
Looks like a fun expression. Though, I can't tell if that's sarcasm.

Abilities allowed by Interfaces & System calls compared to dynamic linking
As silly as this may seem to programmers, I had to look up the difference from system calls and dynamic linking. Trying to see why Wine, MsDOS, Linux, FreeDOS are allowed to run programs on them regardless of license. Wine is under LGPL. Linux has a specific API layer which programs can run on without needing to be licensed compliant. Aside from that, Wine allowing dynamic linking out due to being LGPL is less important than, programs which use it use an interface layer. Windows allows any licensed program to run on it due to system calls. Perhaps they all do, whether OS or emulator.

For low level: Kernel & OS
I believe that the kernel and OS need to allow dynamic linking upwards, and standard any compatibility layer, a system call also. An OS and/or kernel needs an interface and dynamic linking in to use drivers regardless of license.

GPL has no business here. LGPL may be acceptable here, except it needs to further allow use with all available open source drivers.

Main part of userland
All software in the main part of userland needs to allow dynamic linking from downwards to allow them to use libraries.

End user programs in main userland
All must allow them to use dynamically linked libraries. The reason end use programs shouldn't be required to allow other programs to use them through dynamic linking is, these programs are often intended primarily for opensource than a proprietary company offering their own closed off product using that code as a basis. It's for opensource. If a company wants to use it, they need to reciprocate contributions back. Or they can just use it, for the basis of using the same software available as opensource.

Where GPL programs reside
For GPL and anything as obnoxious as it, it must be run in an emulated layer. For a different reason, FreeBSD can run Linux binaries through a compatibility layer. While BSD is perfectly capable of running GPL programs directly, they must be put behind an emulation layer anyway. Most GPL dependencies need to be replaced by nonviral software that's not within the emulation layer, so GPL uses it from the main userland. GPL needs to be cordoned off to stop infesting other code.

Where LGPL resides
LGPL complicates matters, it would fit in the emulation layer, except programs in main userland often rely on it. It would fit in the emulated layer, due to GPL using it. In the main userland layer, LGPL can only be used on top of permissive code, since it can only use what GPL accepts. If LGPL sits in the main userland layer, it has to sit on the bottom except can be on top of permissive code. It's still far cleaner than GPL in main userland. It fits better in main userland.
 
I don't know licensing enough to discuss detail, but don't believe I ever ran into any issues related to licensing. I use software however I want :p and it's cool if it's open-source with code to look at! Distributing is a different ordeal though.

open-source is not about looking at the source code. And re-distributing on your own isn't the point either.

The point is the right to split the project and make a new group of people publishing a derivative of the original software. That keeps the original authors in line, because if they make too many unpopular changes they face a split. And it's not that you personally should do the split. The point is that if they piss off enough users there will be a group with critical mass to do it.
 
If that's in response to what I wrote, GPL does it all the time. If so, you're defending that more.
No, not necessarily in response to you. In response to the whole concept of licencing something you fundamentally don't own.

I agree very much with cracauer above, but that's only the positive side, i.e. why dispensing with licencing is desirable. But it still doesn't cover the negative side, i.e. what legal footing do you have to licence it in the first place. It's on that negative side that I'm trying to make a point.

The onus is not on "us" to show why non-proprietary licencing is illegitimate. The onus is on "them" to show why it is legitimate. What right have you to call the police on me, to make it very concrete, for how I do or don't interact with something you don't own and didn't take steps to keep secret.
 
open-source is not about looking at the source code. And re-distributing on your own isn't the point either.
To some extent, both of those are the point.

Long before today's "open source" became popular, I worked on a set of computers where you could actually look at the source code of the OS. That being IBM mainframes, where shipped the source code to customers, where the compiler listing of the OS itself was stored in the machine room and was open to inspection by users, and where the system programmers had online access to the source code (normal users did not have read permission). The OS was modified by us (we had three large mainframes on site, and about two dozen system programmers). For users, having access to the source was very useful, as one could figure out how things really worked, one could borrow good ideas. For example, printing (to the big line printers) from within a running interactive program (under TSO) required a few dozen lines of assembly followed by a system call, and to find out how to write that code required studying the OS, as modified on our installation.

So indeed, one of the points of open source (which predates RMS and GNU) is that having access to the source, and being able to change it for local use, makes for a better experience.

And modifying and re-distributing it was also done, long before RMS and GNU. For example, both IBM and Digital had large user groups (Share and DECUS), and those used to regularly distribute tapes with software that had been contributed (submitted) by users. A particular example on the Share tapes was the "atlatl" program (a copy utility that could convert pretty much any format to any other, the name stands for any thing lord to any thing lord). The most fun thing on the DECUS tapes was Empire, the war game of the century. This software was occasionally improved by others, and then resubmitted to the next distribution and reshared. In those days, the 70s, nobody thought about licenses; they put an "author" note at the top of the text file, perhaps a copyright notice, and then right below they tended to define "real pi =3.1415926".

In the 80s, that idea morphed into a political debate (which is where RMS came in and made a giant mess). And with the advent of inexpensive computers that hobbyists could afford to have at home (fundamentally, the IBM PC) and with CPUs that allowed running interesting software (having a 32-bit address space and an MMU, fundamentally the 68030 and 386), the "open" software suddenly became super important for the hobbyist ecosystem, because it was also free software. And someone (typically a college student) who managed to scrape up $1000 for a computer wasn't about to spend $5000 on the OS license for it. We have to remember that BSDi used to charge an amount measured in K$ for a supported copy.

But I completely agree with your next point: The ability to modify and re-distribute software is a vital ingredient of the open / free software movement. And it acts to improve quality and usefulness of software.

In response to the whole concept of licencing something you fundamentally don't own.
The concept of "ownership" does not work well for information. That's because information can be duplicated without loss of the original. For example: If I own a chunk of gold, I can hold it in my hand, I can turn it into jewelry that I wear, I can sell it, I can use it for some industrial process. The philosophical concept of "ownership" really means a bundle of legal rights, first and foremost the right to control what happens to the thing I own.

How is ownership of physical objects created? That is a complex question, for which only the legal system has the ultimate answers. But usually, it involves either buying something, or making it. In the case of the gold, I could have made it by digging a deep hole in my back yard, finding little bits of gold dust, and melting them into a big blob. Or I could have gone to a store downtown, given them a stack of colored little pieces of paper with numbers on them, and those pieces of paper are considered highly valuable in our society. We derive the moral (not legal) right of ownership from the sacrifices I had to make to obtain the object I own.

The important thing is this: If you take the chunk of gold out of my hand (permanently) and put it under your control, then I have lost something of great value. Gold can not be duplicated, and only the person controlling it can directly benefit from it.

With software, it works differently. If I have a 1000-page listing of an OS in my hand, then you can make a photocopy of that stack of paper, and give the original back to me. I still own the copy in my hand, and superficially, you having an identical copy doesn't diminish my rights, not the utility of the listing to me. Why did I own the listing in the first place? Perhaps because I spent many evenings writing the code myself, or perhaps because I gave a stack of (valuable colored numbered) pieces of paper to someone like BSDi to obtain it. The fact that information is copyable without destruction or loss of the original information makes many people think that information has no value, can not be owned, or must be free.

Sadly, that is far from the truth. For example, if I am (legally speaking) the real owner of that listing, either because I bought it or because I created it, then I can sell it, if it is useful. I can for example write a better operating system (or file system in my personal case), and make good money licensing or selling or renting it to to other people. (Side remark: I spent about 20 years writing file systems for a living, made a good salary, and made many end user customers very happy). The fact that other people have made photocopies and are giving them away at street corners destroys the value of my original copy.

The intellectual problem arises because the act of making a copy of something does work for software, but not for chunks of gold. Yet, distributing that copy can destroy my value, just like it would for taking my chunk of gold away. Our society has known about this problem for a very long time, and partial (often bad) solution were worked out in the old days, when the valuable forms of information were words, art, music, and technologies, and we invented copyright and trade secret and patents to make sure the end result was that the person who we (morally) thought should benefit did indeed benefit, and others did not.

So when you say "something that you fundamentally don't own", you are making a very complex statement. Ownership of a piece of information really means: having the legal right to benefit from distributing that information. Which only works if the information isn't already available freely in all places. The word "fundamentally" seems to indicate that you are talking about the moral considerations that lie below that legal argument, but it turns out that the world does not agree on morals. And that applying existing legal rules (both for tangible uncopyable objects and for old forms of IP = intellectual property) to software often leads to non-desirable answers.
 
I'm not saying that anything that is information and is readily retrievable is "something you don't own" on the basis that you can copy it and I didn't steal your original. There are philosophical debates to be had there, but those aren't the ones I am having here.

When you discuss ownership of intangible property, which predates computers btw, there are certain parameters that have been worked out over the centuries into a legal framework with solid footing in reality.

A movie, for example, is just a list of bits. The company providing you access to the list of bits is letting you see it, and copy it. But it is not disclaiming property. This matters for a very specific reason, and it is the only reason copyright legislaiton was ever proposed and the only reason that proposal was ever accepted by legal authorities: even if it is pure information, you made it and you plan to leverage it into a business. There is literally no other basis that has any legal precedent to claim ownership over intangible goods other than the right to reap the profit from the effort of designing that intangible good. This is also, by the way, why it has a built in expiry date. It is not the idea that ownership of intangible goods is a real and eternal thing like ownership of objects, but a convenience to allow designers to profit. After the designer is dead, and enough of his nested offspring are dead, or those of the parties that purchased the rights, the copyright simply expires. Often well before that. Even if you designed the good, even if you took every step to claim ownership'and restrict access, the law withdraws any and all support after X amount of time, period.

Even within the copyright period, you can't claim it under any and all circumstances. You need to show that enough of it was copied, that it was copied in a manner that either will reap economic benefit or negatively impact the designer's ability to economically benefit, that you took steps yourself to prevent infringement before you brought the law into the issue, and other contextual nuances of this type.

So ownership of intangible goods, copyright, the right to the copy, is a very narrow and specific legal construct that exists solely to allow designers that claim it reap economic benefit and claim authorship while still making the information available.

Often claiming copyright infringement in this very narrow and specific frame is hard going, millions of dollars are spent, and cases are still lost on nuances.

But then comes a group of people who: 1 disclaim the right to profit and, importantly, 2. disclaim ownership, claim the right that owners with a right to profit don't have to decide what who can do with the intangible good forevernadever no matter what regardless of context.
 
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