Why do you use FreeBSD on desktop?

At the moment (app. 2y) FreeBSD is my only system for everything,
and FreeBSD only.

One can be pretty happy with it,
if you are not expecting it to be or to convert it into some kind of Windows-, Apple-, or Linux-like,
but learn and think unix,
and convert yourself to FreeBSD (which ain't that hard.)

If you don't depend on some certain software not running under FreeBSD,
but may chose from the vast choices FreeBSD offers,
which covers pretty much everything,
which I can,
including the will to go and learn alternatives, and doing some config,
there is no real need to use something else.

Okay, gaming is not really perfect.
But since I disliked most of new games anyway, and gaming is not my primary use for computers,
I can do anything else I want/need/have to do with FreeBSD and its provided software.


So, why:

FreeBSD can be tailored exactly to individual needs and taste to the point.
FreeBSD is so heavenly silent.
If I don't ask the machine anything, it stays silent.
FreeBSD is so heavenly verbose.
If I ask the machine something, I receive as much answer as I need to understand the problem, and at least may work with it.

No demeaning, but informationless dialagous.
No annoying unasked popping up "yes, yes, YES!, OK!!, YES!1! I KNOW - DO IT FOR CHRIST SAKES!!eleven..." - shit
or
"Your last update was yesterday, if you do not do the 20 minutes lasting updates installation und reboot NOW, your machine will die a sudden horrible death!!"-crap
No accusations, excuses, responsibility shifting, charges, noisy peeps, boings, whines, crys, burps, belches, farts,...
Silence.
Sweet, sweet, silence.
My responsibility (anyway).
My (full) control.
heaven!

Windows I disliked since I've started to use it with 95,
You cannot really develop a loving relation to Windows when you used Amiga OS and Sun's Solaris before,
had a sweet taste of good, and then been forced to face the bitterness of sucking bs.

So I was seeking for an alternative since then, because I disliked it even more and more.
Until I finally found FreeBSD
I simply didn't heard of it exists until app. 10y ago, because everybody (I know) is talking Linux, only.
I searched the internet for a real alternative. I already saw my need for a serious Windows-exit strategy.
[I'll take a peek on OpenBSD one day, because I find it very interesting what those guys are doing.]
and completely stopped using Windows when 7 was discontinued.
(Well, that's not entirely true, I have XP to launch 3..4 games within vbox, but that's not really using it, is it?)

Apple to me was always out of the question.
When Apple did not sucked that much, it was too expensive for me.
In other ways today Apple sucks even more than Windows.
One day those guys will finally choke on their own greed.
(Wouldn't be the first time. But this time there is no Steve Jobs no more, whon can be begged to leave his sickbed to come back and clean up the mess the greedy ones have produced.)

My wife has one of those M1 MacBooks.
She still uses her former 10y old MacBook, too, because the new one refuses the external DVD-drive.
Her job depends on using DVDs and CDs, but with Apple there is only a cloud, and Apple's cloud, only.
No access to our NFS anymore, SAMBA only, and very slow, (please don't link me How-Tos! I slaved weekends over this! Yes, the tools are still there. It's not working, anymore. Don't ask me, ask Apple!)
No access to media anymore, even the one you bought elsewhere, when you fall from Apple's favour.
To me this absolutely no-go.
I'm trying to convince her, that her next machine will be no Apple no more.
Either some FreeBSD or ubuntu, depends on how much I want to be her admin (and she let me.) :cool:

Both - Apple & Windows - are really pissing me of with their greedy personal data gathering, selling-out, and bombarding with ads.
I am not paying (a lot of money) for having disadvantages!

Linux is way too unprofessional to be used as a reliable everday OS for the common user.
Excluding those turn-key distris like ubuntu.
But those are too Windows-like for me, again.
(I once tried to install Open-Suse for a trial, which killed my other HDDs without any asking or forwarning.
Ultimate game over for Suse for me. Absolute total no-go!)

To me Linux is more some kind of an anarchic, experimental playground for anybody who may express everything freely about operating systems, as long as it fancies one, and then drop the mess to whatever consequences.
That's okay.
Many new, and many good, and many good and new things came out of this, and will come out this, no question.
But that's nothing for being used by an user.

Maybe that's why [according to wikipedia] Microsoft bought github.
They learned since it's nothing the common, stupid user will handle it's no danger to Windows,
which is ment to be the system for stupid, unwilling to learn users ("computer cattle"),
which they want to keep it that way, because stupid users are dependend, and dependend users can be milked.
And they have the surveillance over app. 90% of all free- and open-source software development.

I have a strong will for liberty and freedom,
I don't want to be milked, exploited, and kept stupid and dependend.
And I am fully aware of this means to make own efforts, such as learning.

As J.J. Rousseau said:
"Freedom is not to do what you want,
but not to do what you don't want."
A. Camus:
"Freedom does not consist primarily of liberties but of duties."

I am an user, not an operating systems developer or hobbiest tester.
My interest is not in developing, or experimenting with systems, being already satified if I got them up and running, being happy if something's not working, so I have something to fumble about, or trying how to crash it, or what else could be done with it...

I need to use it.
It simply has to work.
Installation and maintenance to me are necessaties to be kept small, but are not the main purpose.

The choice for and the operation system itself is very important, no question.
But it's neither the main actor, nor the plot.
The software being used is.
For that it needs to be a usable system.
A reliable usable system.
And not some kind of experimental kit you don't know how it looks, how it feels, behaves, works, if it still works, or if it even exists, the next day.

To me a system simply has to work - reliably - and be reliable.
I don't care much, if the new look is cooler, or someone else thinks a new idea is much better,
especially not if I'm forced to the change,
and especially not if something else is not working anymore, or being removed.

For an user any change is annyoing, and in most cases not a profit at all.
It doesn't matter if an idea is better or worse.
It's new.
New means learning before usage.
If the old usage is removed it's even worse.
This means the user is interrupted in his producing process, what he uses the software for,
and forced to learn the new usage first, before he can continue his work.
Thus lowering the work efficiency with the software.
If this happens too often, one may think of using something else,
because I'm willing to learn, of course,
but learning is not the main purpose,
the usage is.

And FreeBSD is worth learning, because the usage does not change so quickly, often, or even.
New things are added (unix philosophy), only actual obsolete things are really replaced.
And even then I have at least a theoretic chance to keep even that.

Learning FreeBSD is paying off, as already someone above pointed out.

Not updating the documention to an user is simply removing usage.
Because one cannot presuppose any user is in all source-code,
and checks it everytime something is changed,
just because writing documentation is below the dignity of posh programmers.

If the documentation lags behind two or more versions I call it Linuxism.

Linux always reminds me of the kitchen of the fraternity house I used to live at university:
Everybody wants to be the star-chef, jiggling the frying pans, experimenting with new recipes,
but being too swanky to clean up and doing the dishes.
So when two guys produced two plates of spaghetti the kitchen was taken out for the rest of the weekend.

Every real cook knows:
80% of all kitchen's work is the "boring stuff":
cleaning, peeling, cleaning, cutting, cleaning, cleaning up, doing the dishes, and cleaning.
If one doesn't accept that fact, the result is a mess:
Like nearly all Linux-installations I had:
sudo apt get, sudo apt this, sudo apt that, sudo, sudo, sudo,...
and then: "schrammel, schrammel, schrammel, schrammel, warning, warning, warning, error, error, error, aborted."
UN-usable (to me)!

That's why I am so anxious about anybody comes here from Linux,
mentioning all the great, fancy, and fanatstic fresh ideas Linux has but may be missed in FreeBSD.

If keeping the kitchen clean is "old-school" so call me an old fart!
But in my kitchen the rule is:
First learn to clean up.
Then clean up.
And when the kitchen is clean,
and stays clean,
then we can discuss further things.

That's why FreeBSD works.
because it's clean, and not a mess.
That's why I use FreeBSD.

Peace out, sorry for the long post - I hope it answered the question satisfactiory.

You all have a nice weekend!

P.
 
I was looking to move away from the Linux kernel and association with the Linux Foundation.

I had several considerations and after installing FreeBSD, and being very familiar with the available programs and configuration files, decided to stay.

For me it's what is most familiar and easy to use. All the programs I rely on are available and working as needed for me. I am still surprised by the how easy migrating has been.
 
I am still surprised by the how easy migrating has been.
Not too surprising for me. While FreeBSD is vastly different than GNU/Linux (yes, need to include the GNU userland tools here for sane comparison), both systems aim at POSIX compliance, so there are already enough things that "work the same" from the user perspective. Of course, here you will notice lots of differences as well.

But then, the layers above the "base OS" to form a desktop system are actually the same software: Xorg plus opensource window managers or desktop environments.
 
You guys who use FreeBSD as a daily driver on desktops.
Just curious, why you've picked FreeBSD instead of Linux, Mac...? IMHO, it would be great to have this kind of information up to date in 2023.

It doesn't have to be "instead of". It can be "as well as". At work I have a Windows laptop which I use to connect to Linux servers via NX (and I use the laptop at home sometimes, though most of the time I still go to the office to work).

At home I have 2 workstations, I'm typing this on one of them which is triple boot (FreeBSD 13.1, Fedora 37 and Windows 10). I don't use the older workstation much these days - it has Solaris 11.3 on it. Finally I have an Intel macbook pro with macOS Ventura 13.2.1.

On top of that I have 20 or so VirtualBox VMs (many FreeBSD versions, 3 or 4 Linux distros, OpenIndiana, NetBSD even Windows XP and OS/2).

Most of those are for fairly infrequent testing. I'd say macOS Windows FreeBSD and Linux are all "good enough" for all of the things that I want to do (software development, web browsing, e-mail, some document writing). Illumos is clearly a bit behind and things tend do be buggy. I tend to use Word on Windows for text documents, and my music is ripped to iTunes on my mac, but I'm sure I could manage with alternatives.

The only one where I have no choice is the work laptop. That's all locked down and I can't connect to my work network with anything else.
 
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For desktops, I also find a network aware display system an important factor. Quartz and Wayland are pretty much out since they can only really do VNC which is pretty much a Windows 95-era technology. Windows RDP is by far the best but X11 is actually pretty close if you don't use a ridiculous GUI toolkit. So since "modern" Windows is basically unusable in other critical ways, I guess FreeBSD (and OpenBSD) with X11 win by default!
I agree X11 is much better than VNC and other remote desktop systems but X server is abandoned and it sounds (for me) that X11 is with similar fate.
 
I agree X11 is much better than VNC and other remote desktop systems but X server is abandoned and it sounds (for me) that X11 is with similar fate.
It was a worry for me some years back. But most of it is FUD and an attempt of self-fulfilling prophesy (possibly as a sleazy campaign for Red Hat's Wayland to reach maximum market penetration). Make no mistake, we will all have died of old age before something appears that will replace X11 fully.

Xorg might be lacking in maintenance (to be fair, the freedesktop.org is unable to maintain any decent large project anyway). However the future will likely be Xenocara. This is still a nicely maintained pseudo fork that IMO we should already be using. Xorg splitting up into tiny fragments, only to go into maintenance was dumb.

Xorg is also not a massive project, it has been simplified over the years with KMS modesetting and moving away from the user-mode vendor drivers. It really can be maintained by a few people (and is).

Do you recall first generation X11 Window Managers? These are no longer really around. From this I can project forward and guess that the first generation Wayland compositors will also go unmaintained and die in a similar timespan. So from this I hypothesize that Xorg / Xenocara will outlive Weston, Sway, etc.
 
I never tried Wayland, so just have to ask this. Yes, RDP easily "beats" remote X11, so I prefer it. And there's net/xrdp which comes with an optional plugin (or driver?) for Xorg to support RDP directly in the X server. Doesn't something like this exist in/for Wayland?

Disclaimer: I still see no reason to abandon Xorg here, it just works. But at least, the X11 protocol wouldn't be a reason any more for absolutely wanting to stick with Xorg.
 
I never tried Wayland, so just have to ask this. Yes, RDP easily "beats" remote X11, so I prefer it. And there's net/xrdp which comes with an optional plugin (or driver?) for Xorg to support RDP directly in the X server.
This xrdp solution uses Xvnc underneath. It really just translates the protocol so you can use the RDP client.

It unfortunately misses out on the best part of Microsoft's RDP. The network aware systems (including the network aware UI widgets). So really you are just sending a compressed raster across via RDP rather than VNC. It probably could do the same with waypipe if the VNC-style performance is acceptable to someone.

Microsoft's RDP and X11 (not via SSH/X11) still are orders of magnitude faster.
 
This xrdp solution uses Xvnc underneath.
It can do that, but also has the option to implement RDP directly in the X server, see x11-drivers/xorgxrdp.
It unfortunately misses out on the best part of Microsoft's RDP. The network aware systems (including the network aware UI widgets).
This is almost useless nowadays as fewer and fewer applications use "standard" widgets (e.g. implemented in COMCTL).
Microsoft's RDP and X11 (not via SSH/X11) still are orders of magnitude faster.
I seriously doubt that, but unfortunately can't verify because for me, xorgxrdp segfaults, so I have to take the deviation using VNC :(

Oh, I also doubt plain X11 ever performs acceptably (that is, as soon as you're using anything more complex than e.g. athena widgets).
 
Oh, I also doubt plain X11 ever performs acceptably (that is, as soon as you're using anything more complex than e.g. athena widgets).
You'd be surprised. The other day I had the misfortune opportunity to run Firefox remotely. I tried tigervnc and X11. My highly scientific findings are:
  • X11 via ssh was a no go. Scrolling down pages was grim. I even tried changing to the cheapest encryption.
  • VNC was... well it worked but just as horribly as it did 20 years ago.
  • X11 (onto Xephyr) was the faster of the three. Only slightly horrible
Don't get me wrong. We are in a terrible position as far as remoting goes. However, we definitely seem to be going the wrong direction.

This is almost useless nowadays as fewer and fewer applications use "standard" widgets (e.g. implemented in COMCTL).

Currently Firefox runs very nicely on Windows RDP (I am not sure what backend that uses). Yes, I am almost certain that they are trying to break this in any way possible.
 
kpedersen I think all of your findings in this case make sense. But:

However, we definitely seem to be going the wrong direction.
If by that, you mean "oh, VNC will solve it", then yes. But, why not more implementations of RDP? In my experience, this works remarkably well and performant, even without any "standard widgets" (instead, even playing a video in some remote GUI worked accetably for me ....)
(edit: this refers to the RDP server running on Windows and using net/freerdp as a client. Really a shame "xorgxrdp" just crashes for me, I would have had some hopes here ....)
 
But, why not more implementations of RDP? In my experience, this works remarkably well and performant, even without any "standard widgets" (instead, even playing a video in some remote GUI worked accetably for me ....)
I was unaware that the RDP implementations did something outside of Xvnc which you mentioned they do in your last post.

I guess the question is what does RDP do differently that is improving performance? My understanding is that (on Windows) the appropriate widgets combined with underlying drawing layer (i.e gdi+) and then a raster fallback only in few (but increasing) situations was the reason for the improved performance.

Does xorgxrdp do some conversion to the X11 protocol to batch / combine overly chatty messages? Wayland is basically direct rendering so this is a no go. But X11 offers this abstraction which could be exploited.
 
I guess the question is what does RDP do differently that is improving performance?
And *this* is a good question, but I never did the necessary research, so I can only guess: there must be more options than just "render widget on remote" and "send compressed raster-image". Most likely, there's also a way to send other rendering commands (around the lines of GL, DX, ...?).

All I can tell, these standard widgets are becoming rare nowadays, so that can't be all there is .... :-/
 
VNC was... well it worked but just as horribly as it did 20 years ago.
Strange. I use VNC regularly, but the Mac OS specific version. Why? I have a desktop Mac in an office that's next to a bedroom, and that machine is used for scanning and document management (because two large scanners and piles of paper just need a big desk). But late in the evening, when family members are asleep in the bedroom, I don't want to be sitting in the office and work right there, since it would wake them up. So instead I use the Apple flavor of VNC from my laptop, while sitting in the living room. The internal network is decently fast (wired 100-base-T for the desktop machine, 802.11n WiFi for the laptop), and I can work on the remote machine with just minor delays. And most of the work involves using PDF file previews of documents, and web pages (using Safari as a browser). It's not quite as snappy as sitting there directly, and the screen resolution gets somewhat screwed up, but for this application VNC works just fine.

I wonder whether your performance problem is not so much intrinsic to VNC, but a specific problem of Firefox' rendering, or a bad integration of VNC with X.
 
I wonder whether your performance problem is not so much intrinsic to VNC, but a specific problem of Firefox' rendering, or a bad integration of VNC with X.
In all fairness, it could be a number of things. I could also be overly pedantic about what I classify as a decent remote experience. I also tend to prefer smaller / lower resolution monitors to most people so in many ways I would assume my experience is one of the faster ones. All I know is that crusty old X11 forwarding does seem to yield better results.

Have you ever tried out the server from RealVNC on your mac? For one of the build servers I saw a considerable performance improvement vs the inbuilt one. This might give some inclination as to what is lacking in a lot of VNC solutions.

Weirdly enough I even find the experience at a physical mac workstation to be a little sluggish and blurry due to the indulgent graphical effects, overly large window decorations and "artist" fonts. So perhaps I just want better. Perhaps I just want Windows NT 4.x ;)
 
My need was a platform of development. Unix-like OS is the one.

I've selected FreeBSD because :
- it's a very stable OS thanks to its long-time development experience
- a all-in-one integrated OS
- a stable ecosystem
- a developed community of advanced users.
- reliable upgrading

At the end, nearly sole freeBSD ticked all the boxes

the + :
- it is free software.
- it is a very fast OS.
- highly customizable desktop environments, available
 
ridiculous hamburger menus etc..
Plasma 5.27 has them, and I actually like them... I didn't like those menus in GNOME, but KDE pulled the idea off pretty nice, IMHO.

Now, to answer the OP:

It's because I like KDE... and on FreeBSD, there's very minimal config done for you, it's mostly a DIY thing. And I like that - Same great desktop as on Linux, but much more sensible underpinnings, very easy to learn and set up the way I like. I like Konsole, Dolphin, and other KDE utilities... and the FreeBSD underpinnings that they give easy access to. ZFS, in my mind, is probably the coolest feature...

oh, and I did manage to get Wayland on FreeBSD going on an RX 6900 XT, but haven't tried the network transparency part of it...
 
I'm using FreeBSD since its very first days back on '90s and I do love it.
I'm using it on all my dedicated servers, my office and home network infrastructure, my VM development hosts and everywhere a headless or console OS is used.

Everywhere except on desktop. The reason is simple, hardware support or rather lack of it.
I got tired of searching around to find older generation computers and peripherals supported by FreeBSD.
It's unacceptable for me not to be able to use modern cpu or chipsets (eg Intel 12th/13th gen), wlan BT or lan hardware found on latest motherboards or laptops.

Latest Linux kernels support most of them but I honestly can't stand its mess so I still have to use Windows and MacOS on my desktop and laptop computers.
 
I intend to get a PC (I use Mac) and try to use FreeBSD seriously as a desktop OS.

I'm also considering OpenBSD as some say that it works good on laptops (suspend/resume for example) and that the documentation is the best. I don't find the latter to be true, there is no equivalent to the FreeBSD handbook for example.

Sorry if this is off-topic.
 
I intend to get a PC (I use Mac) and try to use FreeBSD seriously as a desktop OS.

I'm also considering OpenBSD as some say that it works good on laptops (suspend/resume for example) and that the documentation is the best. I don't find the latter to be true, there is no equivalent to the FreeBSD handbook for example.

Sorry if this is off-topic.
Then... why?
 
I'm also considering OpenBSD as some say that it works good on laptops (suspend/resume for example) and that the documentation is the best. I don't find the latter to be true, there is no equivalent to the FreeBSD handbook for example.
The FreeBSD handbook is good (although it did used to be a little more consistent before it became a glorified wiki).

When OpenBSD refers to documentation, they generally mean their man-pages (mostly developer docs). i.e Pretty much all their drivers are described, vmm, firstboot, etc. Though they do have a bit of an easier time, FreeBSD has a lot of abstraction / compat layers (linuxkpi, webcamd, etc) which although very flexible, can get a little messy and is quite difficult to provide reasonable documentation IMO.

They also have a lot more in "base" that they directly maintain (X11, httpd, wpa, etc), meaning that they don't need to tiptoe around the ugly crazyness that is FOSS upstream quite so much.
 
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