firefox is not unix, it is something horrible

hruodr said:
Do you agree?

If you find with google a pdf file, you cannot get the URL, because it downloads the file and presents a local URL to the downloaded file. In particular, you cannot do a bookmark to the original URL.

Copy with mouse key1 in the results of google and trying to paste with key 2 bring troubles.

It is highly configurable, one can configure a lot of stupidities, but it is from time to time unusable.

Well, a lot of strange things, in some way strange for a unix user with simple X11 with twm.
Click to expand...
In my opinion your critique relates not to Firefox but to Google. It is the web application that defines this behavior.

My own opinion to Firefox: In general, a good browser.
However, its default security settings are horrible and in general it is very hard to configure your browser to be secure and private.
Firefox took the direction of cloudification and data snooping, like many other apps. In my opinion this was a turn for the worse.
 
tux2bsd said:
"Phoenix is not your father's Mozilla browser." Slight correction, it was released for Linux at the same time.
Click to expand...
From that same link:
Phoenix is a redesign of the Mozilla browser component
[...]

Phoenix utilizes large hunks of Mozilla code. Many of the problems you may experience in Phoenix are actually problems in this Mozilla core code. If you find a problem with page content or connectivity then it is probably a Mozilla problem and should be reported to the Browser product in Bugzilla and not to the Phoenix product.
Click to expand...
So really it was only the UI parts that were replaced with XUL. It is still very much the classic Mozilla codebase (for better or worse). Itself a branch of ye olde' Netscape Communicator.
 
tux2bsd said:
FreeBSD isn't FreeBSD then, by your guys logic...
Click to expand...
Of course it is. Just because it evolved from existing software many years ago, doesn't mean it can't become something different in time. But ultimately it rarely can get away from its legacy 4.4BSD-Lite (aka "the last UNIX that Berkely put out").

It will always have some remnants in its codebase, just like Firefox does today; no matter how many different names they give it.
 
kpedersen said:
FreeBSD dumped the 4.3BSD codebase and started again from scratch with 4.4BSD
Click to expand...
But that isn't the farthest back origin story, which is what you lot are quibbling over (re Mozilla/Firefox etc because it has to be pointed out other wise you won't realise...).
 
The actual point is hruodr (OP) is confusing the *nix approach with an application that is able to run on top of various *nix OSes.

Firefox used to be very lean, but Mozilla (the organisation) twisted it into yet another bloated misguided monstrosity (exponentially worse with woke presence over time).
 
My first internet experience was with HTML 1, no frames, no tables, no javascript. Webpages were mostly text with the occasional picture. Obviously the browser (engine) used to be a lot simpler back then too. As the technology progressed over the years the web browser engines had to do a lot more too.
 
SirDice said:
My first internet experience was with HTML 1, no frames, no tables, no javascript. Webpages were mostly text with the occasional picture. Obviously the browser (engine) used to be a lot simpler back then too. As the technology progressed over the years the web browser engines had to do a lot more too.
Click to expand...
Remember when frames used to be a bad thing? I personally want all of my frames back. I would accept the midi playing too.
 
I would gladly use anything else (not Google) if the adblocking in other browsers was as good as having uBlock Origin on Firefox.

Actually, I would use www/links for everything if I could.
 
The good thing about Firefox, is the Mozilla licenses, which are stewarded by them for use for other code by any author, not only for their browser and other Internet applications. Mozilla isn't a viral license, the terms go to the files, and not beyond the directory, like GPL's do. It has similarities to Apache License 2.0. The only reason they can't be used with GPL, except for far separated linking, is because of differences in patent protection. They can be used with GPL if they're dual licensed by the authors.

Firefox can be used to make something better, without the things not liked from it. There may have been a few projects, but unfortunately, it needs expertise and manpower. IIRC, Palemoon was one, but they wanted to make their dependencies centered on theirs rather than common dependencies. That and the way their developers responded wasn't going to work. Malepoon sounded like innuendo. Aside from those, there might be a viable suite based on Firefox and Thunderbird code.

I use Firefox, because of its layout and features. I tried other ones. I'm glad Firefox and Thunderbird moved to Meson for a compiler, than requiring LLVM/Clang and Rust to be reinstalled for every nightly build.
 
jbodenmann said:

Mozilla Firefox security vulnerabilities, CVEs, versions and CVE reports

Mozilla Firefox security vulnerabilities, CVEs, exploits, metasploit modules, vulnerability statistics and list of versions
www.cvedetails.com
Click to expand...
I am fully aware of that.

One of my next points on my to-do-list is to set up firefox run in a jail (or any other browser - my trust in webbrowsers (resp. webpages) is limited, anyway.)
As far as I understand jail yet, possible security issues will stay in jail.
With cookies and fingerprints one may open pandora's box and ask what security exactly means. (No, we don't do it. At least not here in this thread! [SirDice will ban me one day :-/])

Don't tell me, firefox (resp. mozilla) were a 100% non-profit orga, which allows their browser to be set actually the way you may surf the net completely anonymously. ?
If you followed some interesting articles published about that topic you may get to the conclusion, cookies are from yesterday. Fingerprints is the stuff.
If webpages tell me their cooky-acceptance-bs I always think of a guy rummaging your underpants drawer saying:"We respect your privacy!" ?

BTW: Firefox ["secretly"] has an experimental option, to suppress fingerprinting.
But if it works - who knows? How one may test, if you don't have access to a webserver? Go to youporn and see if you receive more viagra ads? ?

I do have nothing against updates and patches. Those fix bugs and ensure security - but shall (must) not change the usage of the program.
But most software companies wildely mix those up with upgrades. Upgrades change the usage of a program.
The first is OK.
The second I want to decide, if and when.

Let me draw you a picture:
Lets assume your computer/desktop/os/browser were your car.

What you want is bugs in the ABS software fixed, the software of the gas injection system to be updated to reduce fuel consumption, newest maps installed to the GPS, and so on.
That's OK.
Those are updates and patches.
Welcome (don't bother me with OK-only-requesters, just do it! Automatically, quiet in the background.)
What you don't need, but also sometimes get, is an upgrade of windscreen wiper software.
The wiper still not wipes better, but, well OK, it also not wipes worse, so what the heck.
Some trainee also needs to share the feeling of beeing part of big software releases. ?
But if it wipes worse, I'm pissed. I neither see no progress, nor any benefit for me in it.
So I want the old version back, because that one wiped better.
Understandable, is it?

But what I absolutely don't want, never ever, is to get in my car in the morning, reading "an important security update has been installed",
and your steering wheel is gone. :eek:
Therefore there are two levers on both sides of the seat.
"wtf!?!..." - "Yeah! It's cool! It's new! It's better."
I don't care!
It doesn't matter if it's better or worse.
It's a change.
A sudden change.
An unasked change!
Besides you fell mocked, since this ain't no "security update", this is a system's upgrade, you're faced to be forced to use and learn it, now.

I neither asked for, nor was I asked, if I wanted it, and especially not, if I'm now ready, willing and able to learn, test and decide if I wants it.
Now I simply have neither the time, nor the nerve, nor the will to stay additionally 5, 10...20 minutes in the garage, being forced to bother with something unexpected new.
Now I need to drive to work.
Just as I did for years, without accidents, with my old-school, back-woods, ancient onehundredandtwenty years old, boring round steering wheel, way back from the stone-ages of steam-engine driven vehicles.
I don't give a..., what others think it's cool.
It simply just worked perfectly for me.
That's all I asked for. That's what I had.
Don't take this away from me without I having a decision!

There is no need to change things just because they are "old".
There may a reason to change, if things are better.
But new does not necessarily means better.
Something many software guys simply don't get.
Of course, I understand that. They spent hundreds and thousands of hours slaving over that new feature, and now it has to be brought into the world.
But also software engineers have to learn two things:
1. There are "ignorant customers, too stupid to see the greatness of their fantastic ideas". They don't want it. They may not really need it. They even may dislike it.
2. Not all of their ideas are great. Some actually may be pure bs, really.
Sorry, but that means: "Welcome to the real world." Deal with it!
Other engineers also do.

Maybe it's better.
Maybe it's not.
Sometimes it's simply another style, better for some, but no improvement to all.
But I want to decide when I test it.
And I want to decide when I change to it - if I change.
I don't like to be forced.
On my machine (I payed for it) I decide.
If I do sudo rm -Rf / on my machine, pour beer in it, or throw it out of the windows, than it's my responsiblity, because it's my machine, and also no software guys buys me a new machine, when they made a mess neither.
my responsibility = my decision.
I want no some pimple-faced tie-holder nerd from marketing decides for me because they just were in some sudden mood.

Therefore at least:
- distinguish between patches, updates and upgrades, please
- please let me decide, when I install what
- give my a chance to fall back again ("downgrade"), switch it off, remove it

FreeBSD is exemplary in this point, because you may fall back, if you like.
One may discuss, if it's useful or secure - but I have a chance to decide.

Some things are not old.
They are established.
Because they've proven their good usage.
Such as to make an OS like unix and follow the unix philosophy.
Not just because it's established ("old"), but because it's established because it's proven best (so far) ?

Fact is:
The reason why I update, if I update Firefox is webpages not working anymore.
Because the pure idea of an update alone already gives me the willies!
(I'm simply impaired by lots of bad experiences on MS Windows - and Firefox.)

I never had any security issues with Firefox, yet. (At least none I'm aware of.)
Even if I'm not running always the very recent version.

But I had countless nuiances because of so called "updates":
Startpage's set to Google (formerly) or (nowadays) to "Firefox-News'n'Facebook-crap-startpage" again.
I neither want both! I want my speedials being startpage on any new tab, especially the startpage!
Update: speed-dials killed, again.
Again "Welcome to Firefox-BS" (I use Firefox since ver. 6), URl-bar collapsed - again (maybe some upgrade will remove it completely some day? - who knows?), menus also collapsed, again...... and, and, and, shit, shit, shit, again and again!
I want the menu bar be appeared, always, no exception. Every update I have to switch it on again, cause I use it.
I want to have a adress bar, always. Every update I have to switch it open again.
I am an so old fashioned fart, when I know the address I actually, really type it in directly, or - believe it or not - I really, actually use bookmarks!
Yes, I do. I do not google everything always everytime I need it again. (old fashioned idiot, maybe. But I feel the other way is highly inefficient [and costs lots of energy!])
So, switch on that f#c41n adress bar! Again.
No, I neither need nor want any websearches start everytime immediatly at the very first letter I type in there! Especially not on Google.com!!
You may imagine my great joy, when the new, great, cool feature appeared several years ago, so you cannot completely switch off the adress-bar search in the normal settings anymore (formerly you could). Now, you only may decide if you have an extra, additional search bar, but still the adressbar still starts searches.... ? :rude:
Greatest invention of humankind since the leaf blower!
And I've given up hope, that will ever come back again.

I use Firefox since ver. 6. (six-point-, unary.)
Now we're at 101.something.something (or something above, already? maybe .0.0.0.1.0-1a? ?)
I have been grown my browser with me (a real bookmarks-tree, speeddials, settings, even a theme(!)...)
For many years I draw a textfile with all my about:config-variables.
With every update I still have to set them all back by hand, again, the way I want them to be, such as "don't close the whole business, just because I closed last tab..."
(formerly this was default)

Every second or third (...who knows?) Firefox "update" cost me at least half an hour,
only to reset all the shit the way I wants it to be (download and install not included.This comes extra.)
I H A T E THAT!!
You may understand, that I do not want to do that every couple of days, or how often new versions appear, that jumble all your settings,
but try to stay with a version at least for 3...4 months?!
Either you spent a significant amount of time upgrading, or you just stay with the default, as others decided what they think what's best for most.

I daresay, I have better things to do, than to adjust all settings for every update for all my software every couple of days.
(One of the main reasons I ran away from Windows;
"The system needs to be restarted!"
"What? Now? No!!"
ten minutes later:"The system needs to be restarted"
....
at least every 3rd day!! ?
And with Windows you give up quickly to have any own setting at all, and just stay with the (crappy-bs) default.
(Maybe nowadays this may be different. I don't checked, because I stopped caring with XP, and completely dropped this rubbish after 7.)
Absolutely no go!)

Patches and updates are necessary, of course, no question there.
But I have my computer to do things with it, not to react on requesters and to do upgrades.
I simply insist on I am the master over my slave the machine.
I don't let me be slaved by any machine.
The question is:
Is this still my machine then?

The reason why I still stay with Firefox is, the others are even worse.
At least the ones I've checked, so far, yet.
Every now and then I'll check, if there are alternatives.
Last thing I saw a couple of weeks ago was:
? Wow! There are several new browsers on the market (seems I'm not the only one dissatisfied with Firefox ?
...but to check them all out.. :-/
...maybe I could start with a pre-chosen selection.

So, seriously, what are real alternatives to Firefox (on FreeBSD, of course)?


P.S.: Sorry for this long post. ?
P.P.S.: Thanks for reading (if reading it til here ?, if not, also thanks!)
P.P.P.S.: Sorry, for the many curse words. But this topic pi... - fusses me ?
 
hruodr said:
If you find with google a pdf file, you cannot get the URL, because it downloads the file and presents a local URL to the downloaded file. In particular, you cannot do a bookmark to the original URL.
Click to expand...
Not sure if I understood the complaint, but that has nothing to do with Firefox, that's from Google search. There are Firefox extensions that can "degooglify" the search results links. I'm not sure which one does that for my Firefox, I assume it's either "uBlock Origin" or maibe "Enhancer for Youtube".

If you search for "degooglify" in the Firefox's extensions repository, there will be many extensions that can clean the search results links, so they can be bookmarked with their original URL.
 
ralphbsz said:
And: Firefox has a market share that can be counted on the fingers of one hand, in percent. Where does development funding for it come from? I don't know.
Click to expand...
Actually quite easy: 90% of its revenue comes from Google. Google is paying Mozilla Inc. since over a decade tons of money so that Firefox ships with Google as default search engine. The yearly paid amount is in the 400 - 450 million US$ range at the moment.

www.androidheadlines.com

Google Is Paying Mozilla $450M Per Year To Be The Default Search Engine On Firefox

Mozilla laid off around a quarter of its staff earlier this week. Now, the company has signed a new deal with Google, which keeps Google as the default
www.androidheadlines.com www.androidheadlines.com

This deal is to be renegotiated in 2023, and since Firefox market share is in decline many people suspect that Google will pay actually much less money from then on.

For me the problem is this: the first iteration of the Mozilla browser was a big flop. I am really talking about Mozilla, NOT Mozilla Firefox. Released in 2004 after way too long development time it was a big, slow fat thing nobody liked. Internet Explorer was king back then.

Firefox then was the radical rework of that, which really was able in the long term to become number one of the browsers back then for some years.

When Apple created Safari for Mac, they looked 2003 for open source browser engines. They considered Firefox engine (I guess it was Gecko back then) as too complex and heavyweight. So instead they found the KDE project, which already back then had its own rendering engine called KTHML, and adopted it. Apple just renamed it into Webcore, later Webkit. So KHTML became the base of Safari and later the web browser on the iPhone.

When Google announced Chrome, it also used Webkit right from the beginning. Since Webkit is led by Apple, Google later forked it and called its own for Blink.

For me Firefox lost its way around version 4, when they started to copy Chrome and rebased their development schedule on the same 6 weeks cycle Google has. Also the management in the last few years really seems to be too much concerned about nonsense features like Mozilla VPN, Colorways and whatnot instead of focusing to deliver a streamlined browser. And firing the Rust people was not the wisest move ever, nor the MDN people. Also Servo was expelled. For me Mozilla nowadays hass too little engineers to do anything good any longer, and is too obsessed instead with pulling one bullshit marketing stunt after the other nobody really cares about.

Firefox was something unique in the past, but nowadays is a bad Chrome copycat wannabee who is unable to really compete with Chrome. And that's why it is so much on the decline.

The other reason is that under iOS users have no choice but to use Webkit, since Apple does not allow the installation of other rendering engines at all. And under Android Blink is the default engine shipped with the OS, and Chrome does its job nicely so most don't have any reason to install Firefox at all.

The future is at the moment a Google dominated web, and the tool for that is Blink. I mean even Microsoft was not able to establish a new browser on the market against Google. Now Edge is using Blink.

news.itsfoss.com

Here's Why Firefox is Seeing a Continuous Decline for Last 12 Years - It's FOSS News

Firefox is witnessing a decline in its userbase for the past 12 years. Dan expresses his views on the 'why'.
news.itsfoss.com news.itsfoss.com
 
You could try to make a pure imaginative speech, trying to come up with something better that could be used instead of a browser. Its easy to find bad sides in something,more difficult is to try to imagine something that works better.
 
Menelkir said:
AMosaic no, but now you can use IBrowse. :D
Click to expand...
Bugger. That made me realize I was on the internet before IBrowse was first released in 1996. And that happened even before Google existed (Google search first launched in 1997). I'm so frigging old school, I'm pre-Google! I also distinctly remember using Google search for the first time. It was amazing.
 
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