Is there a real interest in pushing FreeBSD on the desktop space?

jbo said:
As already said in this thread: Such things exist (on top of FreeBSD). Some of these are:
  • GhostBSD
  • NomadBSD
  • MidnightBSD
  • HelloSystem
Click to expand...
So it's something like using FreeBSD as a base, as the kernel, and then having a sort of preconfigured system setup, right?
Isn't it the same as Linux distros?
 
rmomota said:
So it's something like using FreeBSD as a base, as the kernel, and then having a sort of preconfigured system setup, right?
Isn't it the same as Linux distros?
Click to expand...
My opinion, No. Why?
Linux is technically "just the kernel"
FreeBSD is a kernel plus a set of base utilities/programs that give you a functional system.

The distributions mentioned are "FreeBSD plus a few packages/ports".
A lot different than "Linux Distros"
 
mer said:
My opinion, No. Why?
Linux is technically "just the kernel"
FreeBSD is a kernel plus a set of base utilities/programs that give you a functional system.

The distributions mentioned are "FreeBSD plus a few packages/ports".
A lot different than "Linux Distros"
Click to expand...
Where GhostBSD and other BSDs get the code from?
Each one develop their own version in a sort of FreeBSD git trunk that is getting another way in live different of FreeBSD or is it 100% FreeBSD?
If other BSDs develop their own version of the kernel and ports so it's really NOT like "Linux Distros" as each one became a different system with own developed ports.
Otherwise it's practically the same with the difference that ports are included altogether in the system development as well.
I never experienced any of those BSDs yet so I really have no idea.
In GhostBSD About page they mention
"In general, BSD is also considered beyond the average computer user's knowledge. We try to simplify FreeBSD to lower the entry-level of using FreeBSD on a desktop or laptop. We provide all the benefits of the FreeBSD operating system benefits combined with our in-house GUI tool."
So it's FreeBSD as base system (kernel just line in Linux plus ports) maintained in their own repository combined with a pre configured desktop with Mate.
So the answer is that it's different but it tastes like the same.
 
rmomota said:
Where GhostBSD and other BSDs get the code from?
Each one develop their own version in a sort of FreeBSD git trunk that is getting another way in live different of FreeBSD or is it 100% FreeBSD?
If other BSDs develop their own version of the kernel and ports so it's really NOT like "Linux Distros" as each one became a different system with own developed ports.
Otherwise it's practically the same with the difference that ports are included altogether in the system development as well.
I never experienced any of those BSDs yet so I really have no idea.
In GhostBSD About page they mention
"In general, BSD is also considered beyond the average computer user's knowledge. We try to simplify FreeBSD to lower the entry-level of using FreeBSD on a desktop or laptop. We provide all the benefits of the FreeBSD operating system benefits combined with our in-house GUI tool."
So it's FreeBSD as base system (kernel just line in Linux plus ports) maintained in their own repository combined with a pre configured desktop with Mate.
So the answer is that it's different but it tastes like the same.
Click to expand...
Let me just reply to myself because after reading a bit on each BSD systems seems we have a little of everything.
So my final answer is that BSD systems are really independent of each other but this does not mean that some code/libraries aren't shared in someway but keeping the code in own repositories.
Sorry if I'm wrong.
 
rmomota said:
Let me just reply to myself because after reading a bit on each BSD systems seems we have a little of everything.
Click to expand...

"A little knowledge is a dangerous thing"
-- Alexander Pope

rmomota said:
So my final answer is that BSD systems are really independent of each other but this does not mean that some code/libraries aren't shared in someway but keeping the code in own repositories.
Sorry if I'm wrong.
Click to expand...

FreeBSD derivative systems generally draw their kernel AND userland code from a particular FreeBSD release, and will follow patches for that release.

Some will add specific utilities, scripts and ports designed to customise the system to support the desktop environment and configuration chosen, but the base is still FreeBSD.

This is not comparable at all to a Linux 'distro', so you'd be wrong to imply equivalence.

Some will diverge more strongly, like pfSense and various *NAS which are more appliances than just different desktop setups.

Please correct me where I'm wrong with actual examples.
 
"Base" in FreeBSD means "In-house-developed kernel and some essential userland utilities"...

"Base" in Linux means "Kernel from Linus, but essential userland is a completely separate project, courtesy of GNU".

Both systems have separately developed hardware drivers for stuff like GPUs and wifi cards. And I have to admit, Linux is better organized on just that account.

Beyond the above, FreeBSD is actually pretty comparable to Linux - just slap whatever on top of that "Base", see if it compiles. KDE is a nice example of that. So is Apache.
 
January 2022, thanks freezr:

forums.freebsd.org

Preferred DE of the FreeBSD users

Hi guys, since FreeBSD doesn't have a default DE or WM I'd like to know which are the preferences here, it is only a personal curiosity, I if you want share your habit it will be great! If you do not use any DE/WM there's no need for you to participate but if your WM isn't listed I'd like to...
forums.freebsd.org forums.freebsd.org

Yesterday:

December 2023 Foundation Update – Part 1 – FreeBSD Foundation

freebsdfoundation.org freebsdfoundation.org

Quote:

…

As we build our 2024 plan, our focus will be to improve the desktop/user experience to make it easier to start using FreeBSD, implement key features and technologies to ensure FreeBSD is the operating system of choice for your application, and grow and engage with the community. More specifically, your investment will help us in the following areas:
  • Improving the ease of adoption of FreeBSD for users by providing a more out-of-the-box experience by working on areas such as improving hardware support for a curated set of laptops, making sure that FreeBSD works well on low-cost arm64 platforms, reducing the time and number of steps to install FreeBSD, and providing more documentation on the new user experience.
  • Implementing key features and technologies to help drive innovation and keep FreeBSD the secure, stable, and reliable operating system you rely on for current and new applications.
  • Increasing the visibility of FreeBSD to drive adoption in key use cases.
  • Building community to facilitate an atmosphere for innovation, collaboration, and education through content creation, community events, and increased opportunities for developer interaction.
…

People, you know what to do.

Donate – FreeBSD Foundation

freebsdfoundation.org freebsdfoundation.org

I did mine as a quarterly pledge, in someone's honour.
 
Catching up with some key topics after a year or so away …

_al said:
Just discussed,
Click to expand...

_al thanks for the pointer

jb82 sorry I missed your earlier topic. I'll continue here for some things, since freezr (below) made some distinction.

drhowarddrfine said:
Every other week.
Click to expand...

Please, don't exaggerate.

drhowarddrfine said:
Do people wonder why Torvalds and the Linux Foundation (whatever it's called) avoids the same opportunity? I don't see them developing or supporting any desktops of their own.


FreeBSD is a professional operating system for professionals and serious computer enthusiasts.
Click to expand...

Why? Partly because you know that FreeBSD is an operating system, and you know that Linux is not an operating system.

Linux Foundation - Decentralized innovation, built with trust

Helping open technology projects build world class open source software, communities and companies.
www.linuxfoundation.org

… provides a neutral, trusted hub for developers and organizations to code, manage, and scale open technology projects and ecosystems. …
Click to expand...

<https://www.kernel.org/> is a featured project, and so on. Also:

www.linuxfoundation.org

About the Linux Foundation

The Linux Foundation provides a neutral, trusted hub for developers to code, manage, and scale open technology projects.
www.linuxfoundation.org

bsduck said:
"The power to serve."
Click to expand...

Not in the current draft of the new FreeBSD Project site.

freezr said:
to avoid misunderstanding, I am talking more about something closer to "marketing strategies"...
Click to expand...

Thanks.
 
freezr said:
… FreeBSD is governed by a non-profit foundation …
Click to expand...

Not quite. To help keep things on topic here, I began a separate topic:

forums.freebsd.org

Understanding The FreeBSD Foundation and the FreeBSD Core Team

Governance and direction … FreeBSD is governed by a non-profit foundation … Not quite, and (I think) it's important for everyone to have a shared understanding. Legal: https://freebsdfoundation.org/legal/ Non-governing: https://freebsdfoundation.org/about-us/about-the-foundation/...
forums.freebsd.org forums.freebsd.org
 
grahamperrin said:
Not quite. To help keep things on topic here, I began a separate topic:
Click to expand...

Containing, among others:

grahamperrin said:
Recommended reading – very insightful:
Click to expand...

Agreed about this history in particular. Warner nails the old through to modern core team concensus, without the wishful thinking or sugar coating evident in more "promotional" advocacy pieces (IMO,OC)

In Fidonet days, '90s, before internet access for most people, the chant was "Rough concensus and running code" (qv), which was clearly the milieu from which modern FreeBSD arose, so well described as ongoing process in that post.
 
zirias@ said:
The "desktop" is dead, at least when looking at the "mainstream" user interface. It once was mainstream, nowadays it's a niche.

That said, I really don't see what's there to "push". I want/need a desktop (partially because of my job). FreeBSD fulfills my needs best right now.

Yep, that's it. And this thread feels like the gazillion-th deja-vu.
Click to expand...
Maybe for desktops, but not laptops, and regarding Wifi support, FreeBSD has been behind for about 10 years, if not more.

jbo@ said:
What is there to push? FreeBSD works well as a desktop for many of us here (and elsewhere).


Really? KDE seems to have a different opinion: https://freebsd.kde.org/
If you have a look at the handbook and the ports you'll find that there are plenty of desktop options available to choose from.
There are also out-of-the-box desktop "distributions" built around FreeBSD such as:
  • GhostBSD
  • NomadBSD
  • HelloSystem


In my opinion, there is no such thing as "the desktop" you use an operating system of your choosing to build a desktop. FreeBSD works well for that too (depending your needs & requirements).

I for one switched to FreeBSD as my desktop about a year and half ago after a decade of satisfying server experiences and I have not looked back a single time.
Click to expand...
As the GhostBSD creator, I will defer from your answer. FreeBSD may have many desktop environments but lacks one desktop/laptop support, especially on the WiFi support. I do not know how long I will keep GhostBSD running if no one can have their hardware supported. It becomes unbearable reading about how we have desktops in ports and not acknowledging that, on the hardware side, we lack support.
 
Crivens said:
bsduck yes, the problem is that when people destroy their system its the fault of the system for letting them, so they think. There is a reason why huge parts of these "end-user friendly" systems hide a lot from even the "admin". You have to dumb down the interfaces to keep these users from shooting their own feet, and then blaming you for it. Sorry, when you shoot your own foot and blame the gun, I'll happily give you a bigger one which may or may not do the same thing... Wether it does is for us to know and for you to find out.
Click to expand...
Being the guy behind GhostBSD I do agree. There are some times that some issues people bring me that it is not reproducible and figured they did some changes or changed the DE. I only garanty that MATE will work as expected.
 
For me FreeBSD it is like it is .. nothing more, you have a strong base system and you do what you want with that, a server , a desktop
but if you want a nice package "desktop" preinstaled you are wrong
is not a rocket science build a desktop with FreeBSD , not for..maybe..someone who come from ubuntu and want everything made up
but from some old time linux user(example, red hat 7) is far from easy
 
ericbsd said:
Maybe for desktops, but not laptops, and regarding Wifi support, FreeBSD has been behind for about 10 years, if not more.
Click to expand...
Agreed, this to me is the biggest problem right now. Most developers use laptops nowadays, and I think the lack of Wifi drivers is suppressing new developer recruitment, and also preventing existing developers from actually running Freebsd on the laptops they mostly work on.

Certainly a serious shortcoming, but it's a kernel-space problem. It has nothing to do with Wayland adoption, or GNOME, or Pulseaudio/Pipewire/whatever, etc. These last few are just distractions.
 
Before this fancy web forum existed, in the comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc ERA, regular newsgroup readers were smart enough to simply ignore these posts, and a newbie OP soon figured out what kind of posts receive replies and what kind do not.
Now see where we are! Already seven pageful of pointless nonsense. :)
 
Jose said:
Agreed, this to me is the biggest problem right now. Most developers use laptops nowadays, and I think the lack of Wifi drivers is suppressing new developer recruitment, and also preventing existing developers from actually running Freebsd on the laptops they mostly work on.

Certainly a serious shortcoming, but it's a kernel-space problem. It has nothing to do with Wayland adoption, or GNOME, or Pulseaudio/Pipewire/whatever, etc. These last few are just distractions.
Click to expand...
When I moved my systems to FreeBSD I purchased about 14 supported wifi dongles for laptops. :D
 
I just found some good news https://freebsdfoundation.org/blog/2023-in-review-software-development/.
Improving Wireless Networking

Probably the most common request we hear from users is for better wireless networking on FreeBSD. They want support for the latest chipsets, faster speeds, and improved stability. While Foundation contractor Bjoern Zeeb has made significant improvements to the net80211 LinuxKPI and the drivers that use it, such as iwlwifi, one person on a limited, part-time contract is insufficient to make the timely improvements that FreeBSD users expect. As such, the FreeBSD Foundation contracted two new developers to focus solely on wireless improvements. En-Wei Wu, a 2022 Google Summer of Code Contributor, began an internship with the FreeBSD Foundation in early 2023. The main focus was to continue work to extend wtap(4), a net80211(4) Wi-Fi simulator, with added capabilities. As wtap(4) becomes a more general 802.11 simulator, it becomes increasingly more useful for net80211(4) development and debugging. In the fourth quarter of this year, the Foundation began contracting FreeBSD developer Cheng Cui to work full-time on wireless networking. A main goal for Cheng’s project is to integrate 802.11ac infrastructure required to support iwlwifi. Look for more wireless work from Bjoern and new work from Cheng to hit the tree in the coming months.
Click to expand...
 
ericbsd said:
It becomes unbearable reading about how we have desktops in ports and not acknowledging that, on the hardware side, we lack support.
Click to expand...
Just going by the topic of this thread, it seems like users and devs are really talking past each other when it comes to 'Desktop support for FreeBSD'. For an average user, 'Desktop support' means
Software features AND hardware drivers rolled into one convenient package that is easy to set up and use.
Click to expand...
A dev's response is to:
  • push KDE or another DE for 'feature rich software'.
  • Say that hardware drivers are hard to do, there's very limited number of devices that actually have drivers that are functional under FreeBSD.
  • Say that 'wifi works - if you use Intel-branded hardware, and are willing to RTFM and solve a difficult puzzle of command-line flags and options to get wifi going at all'...
😩
 
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