Work Situation

Quote: "I work as a software engineer. Regardless of the specifics, I am wondering what to make of ... having no interaction with my manager at all, not being assigned a team, nor having any work."

My number 1 concern would be "not having any work". I take it they are paying you for your time. In the companies I worked at, both large and small, the only times I ever felt nervous about a job were the very few times when they didn't have any immediate work and we were sitting there twiddling our thumbs.. "oh now I'll catch up on that bit of learning I've been meaning to do for 6 months"... you know the kind of thing. As long as I was head down working against the clock, against pressure, usually in a team but even occasionally by myself, I never felt worried, regardless of whether I saw a manager each week or not.

But having no work assigned to me would definitely concern me, if it goes on for more than a week or so I would start thinking about brushing up the CV and looking around, after all what else are you there for if not to work for them? Even if they are just keeping a headcount open without having any actual work for you to do currently, it's not doing you any good. Of course they might be in a position of waiting till they win a new contract and then suddenly you will be inundated with work...
Yes, very strange indeed.
 
Well, a common complaint from managers of programming teams is that trying to manage programmers is like herding cats.

You can't exactly 'innovate on a schedule', or 'show productivity in debugging'. Just look at any bugzilla instance - some bugs are left unresolved for years, you gonna fire everyone on the programming team over that? or keep 'em? Especially when one line of C code can solve a bug that's been stumping people for years, and was sometimes a showstopper? How do you quantify THAT to the management?

Oh, and what about the old joke of taking a whole year to write the next Great American Compiler, and then using that GAC to write the program the customer requested, especially when commercial off-the-shelf component would do the job just as well? why are we paying someone to write code, then? Especially when copying is so easy, you lose money on using lawyers for license enforcement?
 
There is a YouTube channel called "Programmer from San Francisco". The channel is run by Russian programmer Roman Pushkin.
He showed how programmers who lost their jobs...
Or who are not competitive... live in parked vans and trailers in the San Francisco and Silicon Valley agglomeration.
This is some kind of selection nightmare. ONLY the "best of the best" are needed.
True, in one video the author said that some programmer woman, working in a large and well-known (I forgot the name), works like a beast,
her vision has dropped to "minus 10", her brain is melting from coding, but she pays about $7,000 a month for a house, and lives on another $3,000, which means she earns about $12,000 gross... Is this true?
Or is it just a load of crap?
I'm not saying this. This information comes from real programmers.

That's why I asked the author, if you are RELATIVELY free, you don't need much, then quit your job. Also, how much money do they pay.
But due to the unwillingness to disclose confidential information, I can't wish anything more to the author of the thread.
It's clear that if they pay "ten", then it's somehow possible to bust your ass for the British flag and tolerate freaks.
But for 4000 dollars I would hardly tolerate such jokes at work.
The rest - I don't understand. I'm in a different situation, in a country where in the morning I may not go to this forum, because at night I may end up buried alive under concrete slabs from a ballistic missile strike.
I'm 51 and I understand that the average age of a man in my country is 61-63, so I don't want to bust my ass and achieve "successful success". If the job becomes unbearable, I quit the job. My health is more important to me than an employer who will squeeze all the juices and soul out of me.
I pass interviews a thousand times easier than you in the US.
If an employer offers me a small salary, but asks serious questions, I say that for such questions you should pay 3-4 times more.
If he is showing off, I just leave.

But recently one of your CEOs said that in a year programmers will become even less needed because of AI.
What then?
The profession of "programmer" will disappear in a year, said the CEO of the neural network Claude, which is considered one of the best in writing code.
Dario Amodei believes that in 3-6 months 90% of the program code will be generated by AI.
He made the statement at the forum "Council on Foreign Relations".


All countries are concentration camps, but for you guys, living with a credit history is a nightmare. Balancing on a knife edge and living in fear that the insurance company, medicine, etc. will turn away from you is brutal. Yes, MODERATE competition is very necessary, I don't argue. But in the US, there's already some kind of overkill with these "competitions". Why so many repetitive programs, why so much plagiarized and redundant code, all this nonsense called "smart homes", "Internet things", hundreds of smartphone models, etc.?

And then you gobble up pills by the pack because your brain is overheated. You come home at 10:00 PM, fall dead on the bed with your shoes on and pass out in a minute, and at 5 AM, right after a dose of caffeine, get behind the wheel and go to work... To pay off a loan for a wooden house, a lawn mower, car insurance...

The example of "die yourself, but achieve success" is well illustrated by the example of how recently in LA "Judas Priest" with the whole lineup (with KK Downing) entered the "Hall of Fame". It took so many long years to achieve success to enter the "Rock and Roll Hall of Fame"! The old guys can barely stand on stage, Halford's health has deteriorated due to cancer. But then there is success, fame, status.
Although, in my opinion, they deserved this title back in 1984.
 
Yes ... I can respond to the underlying message and hopefully avoid getting too deep into politics (politics are everywhere, but when I mean "politics" I mean saying something inflammatory).

Yes, the US is expensive (health care, housing, food, etc. and it is only getting worse). And, I've heard similar things that health care quality, expected lifespan, student rankings, etc. are lower in the US, but we have a higher GDP. Then, would it be fair to publicly assert that in the US, the average person is more livestock than elsewhere such that the companies can generate more profit off of us (we are the product)? Other countries with a lower GDP are "freer". What is free, who is free? Would I be someone more if I drove a Mercedes (I borrowed that bit from a song).

Back to the situation since that is the main point of focus for me.

1. I live a modest lifestyle and could probably survive without working; however, given the current climate, who knows how expensive health care will be.

2. I have the freedom to explore interesting things in the programming realm keeping my mind active - I don't plan to retire in the near future. Those things allow me to solve problems in a different way as well as automate the mundane at work.

3. I am curious to stick with the job, 1. to see or experience the manipulation (be more tolerant or resilient of it and expectant of such behavior in the future, recognize it better, etc.), and 2. see if I can't transfer to another team, I still have about 4 months, but perhaps my manager is aware of that and at that time, poof, I disappear. The only negative part with this is that my manager ultimately holds the cards, whenever I'm terminated, they can put whatever they want in my employee file and I wouldn't be the wiser. If I leave early, perhaps they put something negative, if my manager decides to up and fire me whenever, he puts something negative. My performance review thus far has been good such that I could apply for another position within the company, but there is a strict policy of 1 year regardless of reason. Yes, it has been tough on me, everyday, I wonder if I will be fired or laid off or whatever.

That said, people are people, as bad as it is here, can it be substantially different elsewhere?
 
You have to be careful reading about $7000 house payments and living in tents cause they can't find a programming job in San Francisco. It's like actors moving to Los Angeles cause that's where movies are made. Yes, movies and TV commercials are made in other cities, just like programs are written in other cities by other programmers but in most other cities you can't walk down the street and see big names you recognize that have to offer top dollar to attract anyone.

Just yesterday I read that the average house costs $900,000 in SF or LA (don't recall). The average house in my area is $300,000.
 
Yes, I reckon that is accurate and that average in San Francisco is probably below average elsewhere. I don't live there, but yeah, I completely get that.
 
No one can blame you for moving to a better job if they aren't giving you any work to do, especially if the next job pays better. I wouldn't worry at all about the manager making negative comments, job hopping is completely standard practice nowadays, employers expect it. I am quite sure your boss knows perfectly well that he doesn't have any work for you at the moment, he's probably more worried that you might get bored and jump ship ;-). Sometimes it's good to take a chance and look round, you might be pleasantly surprised by what you find. And it doesn't sound very great where you are right now. Wish you good luck!
 
Of course having said that it's worth putting some feelers out to try to find out why this situation has arisen... I'm sure you're doing that anyway. If it's really a case of they are waiting for project approval and are keeping you there in readiness, that might be a positive reason to stay. But if you think it's some kind of constructive dismissal then I would start looking around. It never hurts to look around anyway :)
 
That said, people are people, as bad as it is here, can it be substantially different elsewhere?
I kind of doubt it. You'll probably be making more than a few deals with the devil no matter where you go. In the United States, being homeless is not a sin (but it is a sin in China, for example, where they do prioritize making sure that people are housed and fed, even if that means some waste within the system). US has expensive health care and a kafkaesque morass of insurance bureaucracy. Yeah, there's this so-called 'Freedom of speech' - yeah, if anyone listens. And if they do listen, what do they listen to? you talking shit about the system?

Is grass really greener on the other side of the fence? Sometimes you gotta get informed, and then decide what you can live with.
 
Obviously you need to calculate whether you want a $10,000 job - $7,000 rent, or maybe $4,000 job and own house with no rent. This may involve simply quitting IT and doing something else entirely. It's generally a myth that software developers sleep in beds of money. Only the aforementioned best of the best do. At some point in my carreer I kind of demoted myself to service desk because of similar salary and fixed 8/5 work time.
 
Well, so I finally have some good news. I say good, because, well on the surface it may look good, the timing is interesting.

This is too funny, just bizarre. I received an email last week about not having submitted my timesheet ... I stopped submitting once my manager removed them from my profile, so I figured it wasn't required any more :). And, for the most part, nobody bothered me. That was about 6 months ago. In between that time, I had 2 separate timesheet administrators email me ... I forwarded to my manager, pinged him on teams, well you know the rest. Why nobody hounded me for 6 months and just 3 separate pings is beyond me. Especially if it is somebody's job to ensure funding for projects is properly allocated ...

The old team I was on, if we missed our timesheet by a day, our manager was cc'd on an email and then they would ping us over chat ... So, I always had mine submitted well in advance to avoid that ... I suppose the LOB is a bit different than the other one.

Anyways, for some reason, last week, my manager actually responded. I'm not sure why. Well, in any case, I'm officially assigned to the team that I was unofficially working with 6 months ago and the one where I said my lead said I'm not on his team, contact my manager ...

By officially assigned, I am actually working on stuff, on a team, and for the most part, back to normal. As per usual, it is what I expect, working on 3 or 4 different streams at a time. I like to be busy.

We have mid-year reviews coming up in the not too distant future, so that will be interesting. I kept myself busy as I know we have to hit so many performance and learning goals. I have them documented, so that shouldn't be an issue unless my manager disagrees since they weren't official assignments.

I'm almost up on a year, I will carefully look around (there won't be any pay increase, so it carries a large amount of risk for perhaps little gain). It seems my manager is either clueless or playing some sort of game, all of which don't seem to be beneficial to me. It is a game of Roulette as to whether it will be different on another team.
 
I think he basically tried to have you resign and after a few months he must have realized that you were not inclined to and thus there was no point continuing that game.
 
Well, like I said, I don't believe he just wised up and realized all of a sudden. I think there are other factors at play here. I know I work in a manipulative environment, but this feels a bit extreme.
 
It looks like you're totally disconnected from your job, you're pro-active in keeping you busy doing stuff that nobody required you to do, but you're not pro-active to understand what is your situation into your organization. Eventually somebody noticed you because you pop out from a payroll and someone else found you a place.

I am not very good at what I am going to say, but in any workplace you must let your upper management (and perhaps the owners) perceive that you like what you do and the organization you work for. If you fail with that attitude you will be within the firsts to be fired at the first crisis.
 
I know I work in a manipulative environment,
I don't know how tough you think you are, but any manipulative environment (marriage, partnership, friendship, family, job) will have serious consequences on your psychic sanity if you stay for too long.

You will suffer of serious problems you may need years of professional therapy to get them solved - if ever: losing trust in other people, become unfit for any kind of relationship - not "only" losing friends, endanger your marriage/partnership, but become incapable to new ones, become even incapable to work, maybe for the rest of your live no matter how old or young you are - isolating, drug abuse, binge eating, loss of self control, uncontrollable aggression, deep depression, even suicide...- the list is long. Very long. Anyway: bad. very bad.

Especially when you say:
but this feels a bit extreme.
As long as you have a chance to get another job, get the hell out of there before it's too late!

I once was in a similar situation. The job environment was making me sick. I had to leave before I had another job. Not good. But this can happen if you wait too long. Or even worse getting into a hospital. Better not.

If you face the situation you're actually ready to exit the environment, have a real opportunity to change the employer, just sign a contract and leave, but you watch yourself refusing, or being catched again, convinced not to leave, maybe you fall for "the song of the dying swan" (again [tears can lie]), then you already are in serious trouble.
Because

A) It's very likely you are in a real abusivley manipulative environment.
There are not only men abusing women sexually. There are many forms of abuse. There are also bosses abusing their position to abuse employees for their own personal sick reasons. Don't you ever even mention that! Never, ever, under no circumstances! You will gain absolutely nothing but unleash hell, only!

The whole point of abusing "games" is: You search for solutions believe in reasoning. That's already the mistake exactly. The abuser is not looking for any solution. He/she is not reasoning. In contrary he/she wants to have unsolved things, so the game continues.
If you reason, you lose, because your opponent is not reasonable. So you also not reason. You lose again, because your opponent accuses you of not being reasonable. So you refuse to discuss, because you learned it's useless anyway. Then you're accused to refuse communication, and being tricked into discussions again anyway, which you lose again. You lose. Anyway, always and everytime. That is the whole point of the "game". Don't look for reasonable reasons. Don't try to explain by reasonable reasons. There are non. Such is not a reasonable working environment. That's a psychopath's trap.
It's not about work. It's about having fun over your efforts, your suffering. It's the three older bullies stole your skicap on the schoolyard, being amused about how cool they are, and how weak and stupid you are - because you have not the slightest chance against them. Yes, exactly. That's childish. That's low. That's pitiful. But some people never grow. And if such an already mentally small bully comes in the body of an adult, that can become real psychopathic. As a real adult you simply don't get it, because you expect any adult to react as an adult - especially when it's your boss. You reason.
So he/she may either puts you on impossible tasks in the first place, or torpedos your work, so you will not succeed, or will tell you afterwards, that it was no (real) success, at least not because of you. Such things have nothing to do neither with reason, nor work. It's sick. And it's not your job to response, nor correct nor 'heal' this, 'cause you cannot do a thing but leave such an environment as quickly as possible.
Your believe in this may, will, have to change some day by just reasoning enough, prove your qualities, deliver enough evidence is you're reasoning again. That's the carrot on a stick. That's the game exactly: They have fun watching you suffering, how stupid you are trying desperately to catch this carrot you will never reach, so stupid still keep trying the impossible, not learning this will never happen. Explanations like people trusting each other, not to give up hope, believe in something good is in anybody makes them laugh even more. That's not even far away for such, that ain't part of their universe. Absolutely unthinkable. Division through zero - not defined. So don't even try to reason with such points again. Don't reason!
He/she is very skillful and tricky, so it will all sound absolut convincing, sometimes even more reasonable as what you bring to the table. After a while you find out it's not - when it's loo late. Decisions were made. Consequences happened. Again and again you ran into situation you knew by the start it was wrong. And everytime you think you convince them by proven facts obviously produced you were right and they were wrong. You reason again. It's useless. And of course it's always your fault. That's the whole point. His/her point is not to solve, achieve, accomplish anything. All he/she wants is to prove you always wrong. With all fair and unfair tricks, like breaking even own rules, bending them, denial, gaslighting and other things. You have absolutely no chance whatsoever whatever you try. So points, facts, evidence are worthless. What you say is wrong. What you do is wrong. You are wrong. And after a while you start to believe it yourself. Doubt your knowledge. Doubt your memory. Doubt your experience. Doubt your perception. Doubt yourself. Doubt everything. That's bad. Very bad. First it breaks you, then it kills you. Slowly, quiet, and almost unrecognized. First your spirit. Then your heart. Then your soul. And finally your body.
And of course it's your own fault, again: Why didn't you leave? Why did you come in the first place?
...
You cannot change anything about that. Just leave it.
You need to get out of such environments as quickly as possible!

B) You already are addicted to this cycle of destruction. You cannot leave anymore by your own will.
Search help. E.g. by a professional therapist (emotional abuse and narcissism could be key words you may start looking for)
Anyway you need regular real life personal contact for any real help to be useful. Any internet forum or social media may support but simply cannot provide the help as real personal contact.

From the bottom of my heart:
I wish you all the best, buddy.
Be strong! Be yourself! Get the hell out of there!
 
It looks like you're totally disconnected from your job, you're pro-active in keeping you busy doing stuff that nobody required you to do, but you're not pro-active to understand what is your situation into your organization. Eventually somebody noticed you because you pop out from a payroll and someone else found you a place.

I am not very good at what I am going to say, but in any workplace you must let your upper management (and perhaps the owners) perceive that you like what you do and the organization you work for. If you fail with that attitude you will be within the firsts to be fired at the first crisis.
Agreed, I do like what I do and the organization, but perhaps with Maturin's post, I should reconsider whether it is the organization or just the direct team I'm a member.

Maturin thanks for your thoughts, I suppose then, what environment is not manipulative (even including parent / child relationships)? As parents, we often carrot-stick our children to get them to do something we want them to do. I agree with what you're saying, but I suppose perhaps the only thing I can aim for is a less toxic environment.
 
If the environment is toxic, especially when it's like the narcissistic disturbed environment I described, leave is all you can do. Search another environment.
And beware: If you have been to such toxic environments too long, you may be already addicted to those, and (unconsciously) looking for to get into something likewise again. Then you're also adviced with consulting a therapist specialized on this kind of abuse. Otherwise you have no chance to escape that, and your suffering will never end, and eventually kill you.

The carrot-stick-trick is not an issue, as long as there are achivable tasks, the child reaches them, and then actually gets the carrot. Otherwise, if the carrot is never reached, especially if it's also being laughed at, it brings real harm to the child's psyche, that can never be healed again. The child will learn at least two things: Trust nobody, not even yourself. Trust is a weakness. And all effort is useless, because there are no achievable tasks.
This destroys humans.
 
Fair points:

I suppose the lesson I should learn is that no matter how much I like other aspects of the organization, that certain things such as toxicity should be a deal breaker, not something that is just considered as manageable. I suppose too then that I need to learn to navigate that better such that if I interview with the company and team, I can spot that earlier on to avoid that situation, then leave it, and ultimately handle the fallout (job loss and dealing with that) as well as addressing that during subsequent job interviews.
 
It's impossible to give you fully satisfying answers. Besides I'm no therapist myself, there are too many things unclear, unknown,... and this is simply no base to talk about such things.
First thing I tried to explain and you seem to understand is, you need to separate the work from the social relations coming with it. Not every job environment brings always professional relationships only. Sometimes, especially when the boss suffers of a kind of personal narcissistic disturbance, he/she misuses the dependencies and hierarchy of such an environment to satisfy his/her personal needs for abuse. And, yes, this will also cause the company to suffer economically. But again, this ain't not reasonable. A narcassist is heading to also destroy himself. All you can do is not being pulled into the black hole with him/her he/she is creating.
Trying to help him/her, as also "by principal the job is very interesting and promising, if not..." are the carrot again.
Let me put it in a simple picture:
What's the value of driving a luxury sports car in which it stinks so nasty you avoid to breath, cannot get your mind off that stench, and no matter how much you air, air fresheners you use, you cannot get rid of the stench?
You have to face it: The car sucks.

On how to do interviews, especially on how to figure out not to get into a similar trap again, I cannot help you.
Besides neither I nor this way of talk is usable for that, too much depends on you, your personality, your experience, yourself... especially the question about how deep you may be already in this rabbit hole.
You may start on some books, websites or YT videos on this topic, browse a bit until you find what comes closest to your situation. But after all you better talk to somebody in person, who is not in the toxic environment (keyword flying monkey) you can really trust. It does not have to be a therapist directly from the start, but somebody you may help on your quest, gives you some points of view from his/her angle, how he/she sees you, how you react on certain situations etc. Within a good partnership your partner should be good start. Best was, if this person also have some experience or knowledge with abuse or toxic environments.

But in the end it all comes down you need to get out of any toxic environment, at least until you can handle that.
As long as you stay in there it will become only worse.
There is an armament race you cannot win. The abusers are already and always at least one step ahead of you. For any progress you gain they will have countermeasures.

Edit:
I summarize by quoting myself from my very first post here:
If it doesn't feel right, it's probably not.
You seem to be in a dilemma.
Your body tries to warn you:"That's not good. Get out of here!"
While your mind explains:"But...."
If you learned a bit of abuse you will see such things may come from the manipulating parts, an inner voice implanted in your brains. So your mind revaluate automatically in the name of the abuser for his interests what is obvious to you.
 
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