Will FreeBSD ever use the Linux systemd management framework?

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The deep underlying problem is that the Linux community has a culture that is set by people like Linus, Andy Tridgell, Hans Reiser, Alan Cox, Miguel de Icaza and so on. And they live in an ecosystem with more sociopaths like Larry McVoy, Eric Raymond, RMS, and so on. Many of them are really fine software coders, and smart people who can keep enormous complexity in their head, and have an overview over huge systems. But the basic problem is that these people have little understanding of computer use in the real world, hugely inflated opinions of their own importance, and no system of checks and balances that can tell them "you're wrong". Two words: arrogant narcissists. That's one of the reasons why smallish disagreements (like the infamous source control battle between Linus/Andy/Larry over Bitkeeper versus git) can not be resolved sensibly, and turn into personal feuds of an intensity not seen since the middle ages.

There are some perfectly reasonable and nice people in leadership positions of the Gnu/Linux/OSS ecosystem too: Ted Ts'o and Stephen Tweedie come to mind, although I haven't seen Stephen in years; Guido van Rossum also has a reputation of being a good and sensible person (haven't met him though). Valerie Aurora (formerly Henson, of file system fame) has written some insightful pieces on the destructive culture of the Linux community, with particular emphasis of its rather shoddy treatment of women. This has led to her leaving the development of Linux.

Yet, this is the software we are stuck with. Just using systemd as an example: whether we like it or not, whether it has way too many bugs, and whether Lennart is an idiot with good typing skills, we'll use it, because the ecosystem has no other solution. Example: I have an RPi3 at home, and a few months ago I gave up on running FreeBSD on it, because too many things were too difficult, things that just run seamlessly under Raspbian. So now I'm stuck with Linux, and as of the week before Christmas my Pi is actually in "production" (installed in my pump shed, monitoring water tank level and pump pressure). But I got tired of having to restart the monitoring program after every power outage by hand, so I wrote a service description file for systemd. Took me over half an hour to get right, but fortunately the web is full of pages (mostly half true) that explain how to do it. Now it works. On FreeBSD it would have taken one minute, but that's only because there I have the daily experience of administering the system. The important part is: in many scenarios (like wanting to run on an RPi3 with wireless) there is no alternative to Linux, and we'll use systemd. And with a little effort and some gritting of teeth, systemd is usable.

Which has no bearing on whether FreeBSD should use systemd or not. My personal opinion is that it should not, because otherwise it will just become a Linux clone with a slightly different kernel implementation. Instead, FreeBSD could tune and improve the existing init system to match some of the benefits (like defaulting to parallel init for faster boot times). This may lead to incompatibilities with desktop environments and end-user tools that rely on systemd, but maybe people who need/want those things will be better off in the Linux ecosystem.
 
This is a characteristic expression of narcissistic denial.

And the paradox consequence of that is, instead of changing the destructive behavior, it is seen as "alternative-less".
And this leads to continuing this behavior against all resistance.
The final consequence of this is eventually collapse.
I agree with you there. Unfortunately, the problem is that if there are a number of heavyweights backing a project, collapse is unlikely.
Do you know of any analysis of the Linux development psychological dynamics, in special regards to what happened in the course of Poettering taking over more and more of Linux?
Never considered it before, but I have come across some "interesting" personalities in my time. I know very little about psychology, I haven't had any formal classes on the subject, and I am by no means an expert. Most of what I know is based on internet research and my interactions with people who have certain mental deficiencies (mental illnesses such as autism, dissociative identity disorder, paranoid schizophrenia, narcissism, psychopath, sociopath, depression, etc...). But the background that you mentioned is interesting.

Background of my question is that I am thinking much about how psychopaths manage to break rules and dominate, without suffering any real consequences.
There seem to be particular patterns that are always the same, allowing to identify toxic people.
I have always kinda wondered how toxic people do what they do and still manage to come out on top. Their thinking is weird and not normal. But then again, I am by no means an expert.

The deep underlying problem is that the Linux community has a culture that is set by people like Linus, Andy Tridgell, Hans Reiser, Alan Cox, Miguel de Icaza and so on. And they live in an ecosystem with more sociopaths like Larry McVoy, Eric Raymond, RMS, and so on. Many of them are really fine software coders, and smart people who can keep enormous complexity in their head, and have an overview over huge systems. But the basic problem is that these people have little understanding of computer use in the real world, hugely inflated opinions of their own importance, and no system of checks and balances that can tell them "you're wrong". Two words: arrogant narcissists. That's one of the reasons why smallish disagreements (like the infamous source control battle between Linus/Andy/Larry over Bitkeeper versus git) can not be resolved sensibly, and turn into personal feuds of an intensity not seen since the middle ages.
The only people that I know about are Linus and RMS. I have heard about Hans and Alan though. But from what I have seen of Linus's posts on mailing lists is that he does admit when he is wrong. I have also seen him ask for help, and I have seen him chew out people who needed it...such as one of the developers of systemd when he banned that person from suggesting changes for the Linux kernel. He had quite a bit to say about it too: https://lkml.org/lkml/2014/4/2/420 As for Richard Stallman, I do respect his work and his contributions to open source software in general. His contributions are significant. However, I do not entirely agree with his politics. Mainly his GPL, which is a political software license. Even saying that, it does have it's benefits when someone goes out of control, like Sony-BGM did a number of years ago with their rootkit on Windows systems. I don't really keep up on the infighting of the various projects, but I'm sure everyone has them. From my understanding, DragonflyBSD forked off from FreeBSD because of such a disagreement.
There are some perfectly reasonable and nice people in leadership positions of the Gnu/Linux/OSS ecosystem too: Ted Ts'o and Stephen Tweedie come to mind, although I haven't seen Stephen in years; Guido van Rossum also has a reputation of being a good and sensible person (haven't met him though). Valerie Aurora (formerly Henson, of file system fame) has written some insightful pieces on the destructive culture of the Linux community, with particular emphasis of its rather shoddy treatment of women. This has led to her leaving the development of Linux.
And that is too bad as I am a firm believer in having women in technology related fields. I have seen time and time again women being ostracized from tech by the constant bullying, doxxing, harassment, threats, etc... from chauvinistic pigs and it really pisses me off. You mainly see this on twitter, which is why I refuse to have a twitter account.
Yet, this is the software we are stuck with. Just using systemd as an example: whether we like it or not, whether it has way too many bugs, and whether Lennart is an idiot with good typing skills, we'll use it, because the ecosystem has no other solution. The important part is: in many scenarios (like wanting to run on an RPi3 with wireless) there is no alternative to Linux, and we'll use systemd. And with a little effort and some gritting of teeth, systemd is usable.
It's because of the Linux community that we have the tech environment that we do. Right tool for the job. Don't get me wrong, although *BSD has been around at least a decade longer than Linux, it was the publicity of Linux that made open source software almost a household term. Because of that popularity, you see these interesting personalities within the Linux community. It's the same reason we have the uptake of Windows and OSX, advertising. It's a double edged sword though, the more popular an operating system becomes, the larger the target on it's back is painted. That's why just about all the malware out there is Windows based. Besides, systemd is/was a solution looking for a problem. Necessity is the mother of invention. I envision someone getting fed up with systemd and writing an alternative solution which may be better or worse than systemd. Ecosystems are funny that way. I suspect (and others have said as much) the reason why systemd has been adopted is because of its' backing from Red Hat.
Which has no bearing on whether FreeBSD should use systemd or not. My personal opinion is that it should not, because otherwise it will just become a Linux clone with a slightly different kernel implementation. Instead, FreeBSD could tune and improve the existing init system to match some of the benefits (like defaulting to parallel init for faster boot times). This may lead to incompatibilities with desktop environments and end-user tools that rely on systemd, but maybe people who need/want those things will be better off in the Linux ecosystem.
Well, systemd is a Linux specific monster. Instead of making parallel bootup the default, make it an option instead. Based on what I have read about systemd, I think I can see how something like that would work within the current init framework. For example, just about everything depends on network and syslogd, so those start up in serial. But, things that are independent of each other (telnetd, ftpd, sshd, sendmail, whateverd... :p) can start up in parallel. So you would have a series of serial and parallel startups. It would be more reliable I think than systemd ever could be. As an added benefit, it wouldn't be hard to make the modifications to make it work that way either, and there is no inherent race condition, so the behavior is predictable.

The idea behind systemd *IS* a good idea, but the execution of that idea leaves much to be desired.
 
I have an RPi3 at home, and a few months ago I gave up on running FreeBSD on it, because too many things were too difficult, things that just run seamlessly under Raspbian. So now I'm stuck with Linux, and as of the week before Christmas my Pi is actually in "production" (installed in my pump shed, monitoring water tank level and pump pressure). But I got tired of having to restart the monitoring program after every power outage by hand, so I wrote a service description file for systemd.
Fortunately, it's still possible to do without systemd. I'm using BeagleBone Black in real production (as a part of a commercial device), and the first thing I did at the very beginning of that project was replacing systemd with OpenRC in Debian. We don't care about parallel boot, so never tried it. Everything perfectly works without systemd, the device performs tons of real world IO ops and runs a graphical application as well.
 
(Off-topic, but then on-topic again:)

Fortunately, it's still possible to do without systemd. ... was replacing systemd with OpenRC in Debian.
Well darn it, now you added another to-do item to my never-ending list: Modify Raspbian to run without systemd. Which is made even more difficult by the fact that I currently have only one RPi at home, which is now in "production" (measuring the water pressure every second), so I can't take it down to experiment with init systems. I guess I'll order myself a second one tonight, need a spare anyway. And then I'll spend long evenings messing with it, when I should be doing something more productive (like finish the remodeling of one bedroom at home, but you can only do drywall and flooring for so long before you get tired).

The part that's on-topic: Good to see that even in Debian (-> Raspbian) there are still options to run without systemd, if you are not interested in integration with gnome and friends. This is to some extent a bankruptcy declaration of the systemd project: it is broken enough that people insist on not using it.
 
Maelstorm just created a &@#!storm in here. vermaden just let it out. Anyone familiar with these forums would know the reaction to this topic.

Sort of. For customized configurations, there's also /etc/rc.conf.local or /usr/local/etc/rc.conf. There's also the defaults to be overridden at /etc/defaults/rc.conf. Still, this is very simple.

What about loader.conf, sysctl.conf, inetd.conf and everything in rc.conf.d? If you use jails then there is a per jail conf. Init is anything but simple IMHO. That is not a defense of any 1M+ monster of a second coming of the Linux kernel. BUT, I as someone who works on distributed systems can say with no humor: tighter integration of subsystems has many many benefits.
 
Lennart Poettering is responsible for writing this shit, same with Avahi and PulseAudio.


Do You really believe that systemd is engineered or is it just like that:
8d2.gif



Look at FreeBSD boot and check how much time is taken by LOADER, then by KERNEL and then by RC init. RC only takes about 1/4 of that time and I havent seen that it is aignifically faster then systemd on Centos 7.4 for example.


Yes, they run everything in parallel withtout chaecking ANY dependencies, fail most services, then restart them again at again at the boot process to eventually finally have everything started. This seem to be intelligent approach? not much. Also with RC, or OpenRC or RUNIT the boot process is DETERMINISTIC which is VERY important in operating systems. With systemd its random and You can not even reproduce its bugs sometimes because boot process is different every fscking time ...


This can be achieved with daemontools but I agree that having that in RC would be good.


FreeBSD RC also has one config file in one location - /etc/rc.conf


Excuse me? Are we talking about same piece of shit 'software' systemd here? RC init is rock stable while systemd breaks everything and itself ... it has been also nominated and rewarded (multiple times) as being worst piece of software and also with biggest and most dangerous security holes.



Systemd situation in the Linux ecosystem is quite like gang rape. Statistically most participants of a gang rape are happy :ASD



In what way?



RHEL CREATED systemd, so its 'ironic' saying that is *SWITCHED* to systemd ... same thing with Fedora which is also Red Hat 'playground'.
SUSE is just for the money, they do what Red Hat do and vice versa.

Gentoo has MANY init systems, systemd is just one of them and its NOT the default.

Ubuntu just goes with the upstream, its 'cheaper' for them to not maintain their own 'upstart'.

Arch is just bleeding edge, no matter the consequences ...

Look at Debian and Devuan (fork), the Debian community has been cut to two halves ...

There is little to none hope in Linux ecosystem because of systemd, but Alpine Linux and Gentoo/Devuan are the last ones that are SENSIBLE choices.



Good, that systemd sh!t is definitely not needed, OpenBSD created 'dummy' systemd replacements which 'emulate' this sh!t behavior just to MEET thos sick dependencies, this is the best way as OpenBSD CONTROL this code.



Maybe, definitely not systemd. Rather not launchd from Darwin/MacOSX/macOS.

An incremental update with 'daemontools' monitoring would be useful.

Regards.

"Systemd situation in the Linux ecosystem is quite like" ... Quite inappropriate and exceptionally offensive.
 
"Systemd situation in the Linux ecosystem is quite like" ... Quite inappropriate and exceptionally offensive.
It's blunt and true.
Isn't it well-known that some particular kinds of people who cannot stand uncomfortable truth feel offended when somebody bluntly says the truth?
Isn't it a widespread psychological defense reaction when people use the accusation of being offensive as means to suppress critic discussions which endanger particular loved beliefs?

Did you read Valerie Aurora's articles about how physical the abuse in the linux community actually is?
 
What about loader.conf, sysctl.conf, inetd.conf and everything in rc.conf.d? If you use jails then there is a per jail conf. Init is anything but simple IMHO. That is not a defense of any 1M+ monster of a second coming of the Linux kernel. BUT, I as someone who works on distributed systems can say with no humor: tighter integration of subsystems has many many benefits.
All in etc/ or /boot/ directories.
rc.conf calls up rc.d/.
It's pretty simple.
 
Am I misunderstanding, or are we now judging Linux quality on the fact that a file system was developed by someone who later admitted to murder?
What about the people who make death threats to Mr. Poettering? Where do they fit in?
 
The biggest problem was wireless. The second-biggest one having to recompile (poudriere, crochet, ...) for 1-wire support. There was also on attempt using kivy on framebuffer on the official display, which didn't work quickly, and on Raspbian ended up trivial.

It's not that FreeBSD on the RPi is completely broken. But a few thing were just way more difficult than swallowing and using Linux. I don't use FreeBSD for religious reasons or as a calling, but to get stuff done, and if Linux gets me there more efficiently (in the long run), I'll use it.
 
The biggest problem was wireless. The second-biggest one having to recompile (poudriere, crochet, ...) for 1-wire support. There was also on attempt using kivy on framebuffer on the official display, which didn't work quickly, and on Raspbian ended up trivial.

It's not that FreeBSD on the RPi is completely broken. But a few thing were just way more difficult than swallowing and using Linux. I don't use FreeBSD for religious reasons or as a calling, but to get stuff done, and if Linux gets me there more efficiently (in the long run), I'll use it.
Thanks for sharing.

I got RPI2 instead of RPI3 because FreeBSD Wiki stated that everything is supported for RPI2, while RPI3 had a lot of '?' states.

FreeBSD, at least in headless mode, works like a charm on RPI2.
 
(semi-OT)
Sociopathy seems a big societal taboo for various reasons, one of them being the fact that many people would be seen less idealistic if knowledge about the subject would be more widespread.
A modest contribution to a better understanding and defense against it: see here.
 
Semi-OT

(semi-OT)

Maelstorm, I mean another kind of collapse: when the software becomes unusable, unpredictable. Race conditions piling up are an example. When the design flaws become so complexly tangled that even bugs cannot be fixed anymore because that would break workarounds for other bugs etc.
Usually, when software gets to that point, it's time for a complete rewrite.

Regarding sociopathy, I am no expert either. But I am strongly negatively affected from of sociopaths in my family and I am damaged by this also (wrong programming in a narcisstic-sociopathic manner). It find it so sad that there is often little information seeping to outsiders what happens in (semi-)closed circles, because this makes finding the common parallels more difficult.

For some reason, my brother likes these mentally deranged women. His current girlfriend suffers from paranoid schizophrenia. When she is off her meds, the conversations are *VERY* interesting. As for me, I generally get along well with others, work well in teams, and I am generally well liked. I do have my quirks, but so does everyone else.

Sociopathy seems a big societal taboo for various reasons, one of them being the fact that many people would be seen less idealistic if knowledge about the subject would be more widespread. Another reason is the complicity that people do not like to be aware of. The lack of humility and the unwillingness to put oneself (and the adored ones) into critical questioning is, in my impression like a vicious circle that destroys society and humanity. Because, when one deems him/herself "infallibly correct", without any humility, there is obviously no need to listen to others, or even start with working to change oneself. And this produces ethics like Skhreli, Poettering, Mengele etc.

Sociopathy and psychopathy are two sides of the same coin which is known as antisocial personality disorder. Apparently there is very little difference between the two, except how loud Jiminy Cricket is. A sociopath does have a Jiminy Cricket, but for whatever reason, his volume is turned down, and therefore usually ignored. In a psychopath, Jiminy Cricket has taken a permanent vacation. Aside, I understand that people from different cultures will not know who Jiminy Cricket is. He is a character from a Disney movie (Pinocchio, 1940) who represents the inner voice of a conscious, or the ability to discern right from wrong, a moral center, moral compass, etc....

Here's a link: https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/features/sociopath-psychopath-difference#1

I think the main reason that you see people with antisocial personality disorder more often in software development is due to the fact that they can keep their interaction with other people to a minimum. Software development (and technology in general) is one of the few professions (that I can think of) where having high marks in social skills is not a requirement. People do have to be employed so they can eat.

Hans Reiser is a really interesting example of a Linux guy. One could say, the murderer quote in the Linux kernel development team is probably highest of all OSes. What I find amazing is that he said as reason for strangling his woman, he did it to "protect" the children. Reiser, like Mrs. Knorr and other sociopaths seem to feel entitled to do the things they do. Marino seems to have felt entitled also to the things which led him to be kicked from the FreeBSD team.

The 'murder quote' caught my interest so I did a little bit of research. I don't keep up with the politics of different projects, so when I find out about something going on, I do a little bit of reading for the background (so I can have an intelligent conversation) and then post to get more info about the subject...like this thread. So, in following my pattern, I did a bit of digging and found this article about his trial on Wired:

https://www.wired.com/2008/04/reiser-guilty-o/

In my opinion, that guy has issues.

I think it's also about the culture, including the way people treat each other. Because, this also has influence how teams cooperate, collaborate and what the produce outcome is.
Agreed.

Culture has to do with tradition and values, too.
In this sense I just thought, maybe BSD culture has something like conservative tradition, learning from experience, respecting of the insights gained, which includes not to change things that work fine.
Linux culture in contrast looks like a fashion culture, new modic trends are constantly being followed, proven functional traditions are boring, constant change for the sake of change. Like throwing away your clothes from last year, not because they are worn, just because other things have become fad.
I guess the *BSD's are the right OS for me then, because I still have clothes that I wear from 5 years ago.

Searching for death threats against Poettering, I found only this at Bing. The article is quite interesting. It seems in line with Valerie Aurora's reports, whose descriptions remind me of the so widespread and massive sexual assaults committed by Arabic and African "refugees" in Europe. (The situation has grown so mad that in Berlin the police had to set up "safe zones", where women could celebrate New Years Eve without fear of being groped or even raped by packs of young "refugees".)

This behavior shows a "culture" without respect for the other, especially women, that these seem to have in common with Linux culture.
And I do not think such is good.

At 44, I'm an older college student. Because of my situation, I live on campus when school is in. My major is Computer Science. I've been writing software since I was a kid, but on deciding on a path for a career change, I decided to get a degree and do software development. I am going for certificates in Systems Software and Cyber Defense and Operations. My other favorite subject is electronics...so much so that I have an associates degree in it, emphasis on digital electronics.

Anyways, you bring up an interesting point. Although not mentioned in news all that much, there is a thing on campus known as rape culture. It *IS* a big problem on college campuses here in the US. So much so that all new university students are forced to take mandatory online classes for sexual harassment, substance abuse, etc.... Even at CSU Sacramento (http://www.csus.edu/) where I am currently attending, you hear all the time about reports to campus police about sexual harassment and assault. The assault is mostly groping. Cases of outright rape are, thankfully, few and far between. But yes, one rape is one too many, but this is getting way off-topic...related, but off-topic.
 
This is actually quite funny. I wouldn't be surprised if a massive systemd exploit surfaces and blows up the Linux ecosystem. Hell.. it's even bigger than ZFS itself!

Funny you should mention that. I just read a news article about Intel x86-64 chips manufactured over the past decade having a massive security flaw...in hardware.

https://gizmodo.com/report-all-intel-processors-made-in-the-last-decade-mi-1821728240

I'm going to make a separate thread about this.
 
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