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Developer
fonz said:Yes they can, just add two or three months to the initial target date.
An IT truism is that a project will always take twice as long as estimated... even if you expect that and allow for it in the estimate.
fonz said:Yes they can, just add two or three months to the initial target date.
drhowarddrfine said:I'm face palming myself to any mention of missing release dates as this happens all the time in all industries and some, here, are acting like it's a FreeBSD only thing. What a childish and immature position to take. It sounds like little kids stomping their feet on the ground and yelling, "But you promised!!!".
Those with ANY experience in manufacturing, software, or...a job of any sort...realizes that such ESTIMATES are ESTIMATES!!! I told the story somewhere on this board of the time I was asked to give a date when I would finish a project and I said three months, my boss put down six months, and I finished in a six weeks. Was I being dishonest? Why did any of us bother to write down a schedule if we didn't plan to follow it?!
Jeez. Get a life. Learn how the world works. Get a real job.
The developers at FreeBSD work for free. Your not entitled to anything.Majorix said:OK no need to take an offensive position in this, as we are just discussing.
About estimates... I am a fresh software engineer myself, so I know some things about that. Usually, you will get a client with a request/project (you know they always do). And most of the time they are demanding a lot. They will say "I need this, this and this. AND I need it in 4 weeks time." They don't care about how hard the project might be, or about anything else. If they say 4 weeks, you know you will have to deliver before the time runs up. You can't say "yes, we were expecting a 4 week release, but we decided we would do some more testing, so come back in a fortnight. Sorry for delaying but we were just estimating".
Maybe this is not how it goes with a FreeBSD release, but if they promise the release is on 12th of November, then the release must be on that day. I might be thinking wrong, but just like I promise my clients about a delivery, if FreeBSD devs promise us something, then they should stick to it.
ten·ta·tive: unsure; uncertain; not definite or positive; hesitant: a tentative smile on his face.Majorix said:The simple way to go about this is to either not give any estimates, or say that it is tentative. Still not very professional, but whatever...
Just my thoughts...
Majorix said:OK no need to take an offensive position in this, as we are just discussing.
About estimates... I am a fresh software engineer myself, so I know some things about that. Usually, you will get a client with a request/project (you know they always do). And most of the time they are demanding a lot. They will say "I need this, this and this. AND I need it in 4 weeks time." They don't care about how hard the project might be, or about anything else. If they say 4 weeks, you know you will have to deliver before the time runs up. You can't say "yes, we were expecting a 4 week release, but we decided we would do some more testing, so come back in a fortnight. Sorry for delaying but we were just estimating".
Maybe this is not how it goes with a FreeBSD release, but if they promise the release is on 12th of November, then the release must be on that day. I might be thinking wrong, but just like I promise my clients about a delivery, if FreeBSD devs promise us something, then they should stick to it.
The simple way to go about this is to either not give any estimates, or say that it is tentative. Still not very professional, but whatever...
Just my thoughts...
You still don't seem to get it: there is no "promise" and FreeBSD "must" not anything.Majorix said:but if they [red]promise[/red] the release is on 12th of November, then the release [red]must[/red] be on that day.
fonz said:You still don't seem to get it: there is no "promise" and FreeBSD "must" not anything.
Fonz
Majorix said:Yes, maybe I don't get it. But this is how I feel.
Well, that's the thing. The developers never promised anything.Majorix said:Maybe this is not how it goes with a FreeBSD release, but if they promise the release is on 12th of November, then the release must be on that day.
The FreeBSD Project and Foundation are not our suppliers, and we're not their clients or shareholders.Majorix said:just like I promise my clients
And that IS my point. The date is for planning but the date is NOT the goal nor a requirement for success.gkontos said:Dates do count because they affect planning. Anybody who was ever involved in software development is aware of this.
drhowarddrfine said:And that IS my point. The date is for planning but the date is NOT the goal nor a requirement for success.
Majorix said:So the questions are:
1. Why formally declare release dates if you won't follow them?
2. Why need 6 months of testing to just release a minor version?
drhowarddrfine said:And that IS my point. The date is for planning but the date is NOT the goal nor a requirement for success.
Majorix said:Usually, you will get a client with a request/project (you know they always do). And most of the time they are demanding a lot. They will say "I need this, this and this. AND I need it in 4 weeks time." They don't care about how hard the project might be, or about anything else. If they say 4 weeks, you know you will have to deliver before the time runs up. You can't say "yes, we were expecting a 4 week release, but we decided we would do some more testing, so come back in a fortnight. Sorry for delaying but we were just estimating".
Maybe this is not how it goes with a FreeBSD release, but if they promise the release is on 12th of November, then the release must be on that day. I might be thinking wrong, but just like I promise my clients about a delivery, if FreeBSD devs promise us something, then they should stick to it.
drhowarddrfine said:Was it Windows 7 that was delayed over a year? Or was it Vista?
NewGuy said:I think the argument "they're volunteers" isn't at all relevant for two reasons
1. The Foundation collects money to assist in FreeBSD development. If they're accepting funds then they don't get to also claim to be doing this solely out of the goodness of their hearts.
2. Whether a person is a volunteer or not should not, in any way, affect the quality of their work. When the FreeBSD team puts up a schedule they should stick to it. To let a release slip so far past its target release date looks sloppy and unprofessional.
If FreeBSD wants to be taken serious as a platform for serious developers, admins and professionals then they should act in the same manner.
NewGuy said:1. The Foundation collects money to assist in FreeBSD development. If they're accepting funds then they don't get to also claim to be doing this solely out of the goodness of their hearts.
NewGuy said:2. Whether a person is a volunteer or not should not, in any way, affect the quality of their work. When the FreeBSD team puts up a schedule they should stick to it. To let a release slip so far past its target release date looks sloppy and unprofessional.
NewGuy said:If FreeBSD wants to be taken serious as a platform for serious developers, admins and professionals then they should act in the same manner.
graudeejs said:DutchDaemon, how about you close this thread for good.
Everything is said over and over and over already.