What do you think about a "SteamBSD" machine ?

ZioMario said:
In my opinion, your criticisms are indiscriminate—they target AI and users alike. They ought to be directed specifically at those users who employ AI irresponsibly. How many actually act that way ? Do you have this information ? We cannot foster a constructive, socially useful dialogue by focusing mostly on what is wrong—or rather, on what you (or we) *think* is wrong—while launching indiscriminate judgments; that is not the way to make progress. Let’s set aside the actions of the irresponsible few and focus instead on what we, as responsible individuals, can do. What an AI does doesn't matter, because an AI is a passive tool. What matters is how we use it—what *we* do.
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Dude. You need to put your emotions aside and accept what everyone here is telling you. You are not developer. In fact, what you are doing and saying is insulting to real developers that write code, understand code, live the code. You are not about that life. Please stop.
 
MrBSD said:
What you are doing and saying is insulting to real developers that write code
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? Where have I insulted someone ? what have I written ? against who ?

It wouldn't hurt to be more precise when making claims like that. I have two suspicions:

1) You consider opinions to be insults if they don't align with your own.

2) You are referring to a statement I made to a developer that was *explicitly* ironic, and you mistook it for an insult—even though it couldn't possibly be one, given that I immediately clarified my communicative intent.

3) I don't know. You tell me.
 
ZioMario said:
? Where have I insulted someone ? what have I written ? against who ?
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You didnt insulted anyone directly. But, to have audacity to "start a project" and "develop" something extremly complex and to think you are somehow different than other "developers" that use AI just because you have some Unix/Linux knowledge, is insulting. You are not developer. You are AI enthusiast with paid subscription and nothing more. You cant vibe code the phone or steambsd machine. And even if you do, having absolutely no clue how everything works under the hood is both scary and insulting. To defend the "i dont have to know the code" type of mindset, is just silly.
 
ZioMario said:
Of course. But it's tough when you're faced with a wall of intense criticism that tests your will so intensely. And very few encouragements or positive criticism for the advantages obtained using AI.
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It is tough because AI interaction is low effort. You did not have to invest much in order to produce these plans for a hypothetical project.

In perspective, you prompt it, and it throws back wall of text. You can ponder on it a bit, and then you turn it to someone with actual programming and domain knowledge. They will take time, to understand what LLM outputed, and give you a comment or a piece of code. It may take an hour. Then you take that and just throw it back to LLM and in 5 seconds it spits out twice larger, 80% changed wall of text. Now you look that, understand even less than before, and transfer it to the 'developer' who will now take 3 hours to analyze and try to fix something per your requirement.

Do you see how this refuses to scale up?

Inside three or four cycles of back and forth the developer will simply stop to use his own brain to do work and just prompt his own AI.

If you are not following what is happening in the software engineering you didn't pick up this has been tried few years ago and fell on its ass. Non-programmers like product owners, project managers, CEOs, whatever, supposed they can prompt the LLM because they have "overall knowledge how project works" to achieve new features or bug fixes. They supposed, seniors would occasionally have to clean up after, just like if junior was grinding instead of LLM. Wrong, never worked, failed miserably.

There is no mixing of human brain and AI. It is brain or AI. A lot of development companies are now straight AI - their developers steer, don't program. You can't be them, because you lack the background knowledge and experience, and you really don't want to be them, because their programming brain is going to rot via that usage pattern.

Also, the definition of "ownership" in software engineering doesn't mean one that has licence over the code. When I say you don't own your AI code, I don't mean you don't legally own it, but mentally. It comes from English expression of "owning ones choices or decisions" eg having control of something. A non programmer simply cannot have control of the code project spitted out by spinning the LLM machine, it's an oxymoron. Even programmers refuse to own the LLM code because nobody wants to own Pandoras boxes
 
MrBSD said:
But, to have audacity to "start a project" and "develop" something extremly complex and to think you are somehow different than other "developers" that use AI just because you have some Unix/Linux knowledge, is insulting. You are not developer. You are AI enthusiast with paid subscription and nothing more.
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To be fair Zio is not just a vibe coder. He is someone that put a lot of effort in a lot of corners of FreeBSD in last few years. I've followed the work he started together with a kernel dev on VM/bhyve nvidia passthrough stuff.

I had tons of interactions in my life where a lay person would tell me they have great app or web idea "all they need is a programmer".

Believe me, the level of oblivity shown in those cases is astronomical.

If I put my armchair detective cape, I'd say Zio had some very successful works with FreeBSD devs testing their code, talking to them getting feedback, producing feedback etc. But LLM is not a replacement for this. LLM won't just tell you - "my man, this is not feasible".

Since we have 5 pages of meta-talk lets try to be constructive. IMO;

- enhancing linuxlator/LSU/graphics stack is not feasible by vibe code
- enhancing certain small parts, fixing bugs for games, perhaps is. However testing is complicated because there are no dedicated testers and auto testing games via LLM costs a ton of tokens
- the non Steam UI stuff of the project is completely doable - setup screens, desktop, config UIs
- branding, backgrounds, scripts - LLM can do.

What would actually be impressive is LLM creating a SteamBSD OS by implementing a CI/CD process using current FreeBSD tech, and local additions from points 3 and 4 above. I mean, if one wants to be aided in product development via LLM that sources from open source, then the first logical prototype is the actual integration without any modifications of the open source.
 
ZioMario said:
In my opinion, your criticisms are indiscriminate—they target AI and users alike. They ought to be directed specifically at those users who employ AI irresponsibly. How many actually act that way ? Do you have this information ? We cannot foster a constructive, socially useful dialogue by focusing mostly on what is wrong—or rather, on what you (or we) *think* is wrong—while launching indiscriminate judgments; that is not the way to make progress. Let’s set aside the actions of the irresponsible few and focus instead on what we, as responsible individuals, can do. What an AI does doesn't matter, because an AI is a passive tool. What matters is how we use it—what *we* do.
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I would argue that any usage of LLM is only encouraging companies to invest more and more in this technology without any regards on the ecological impact on the planet, the ethical aspect on how the data was sourced, the respect of copyright holders with respect to the licensing terms, and the cybersecurity impact like some supply chain attack on ghost dependencies.

Since you ask, given that you just spit out what the AI says without doing any fact checking, I can say that you employ AI irresponsibly.
 
MrBSD said:
To defend the "i dont have to know the code" type of mindset, is just silly.
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Yes. Passionate non-engineers should use LLM to learn how to program, and not avoid programming.

And it is completely braindead to claim LLM can replace devs or devs should not have problems working with 'mixed' code while not being one.

Perhaps I'm more tolerant to people showing this behaviour, where I'm from football is a religion, the city has 300k people with all the suburbia, the club has over 100k members, the stadium has 40k capacity, and everyone and their grandma is a football coach, a sports manager, a CEO and they even have tips for each of 11 positions of play they would, without hesitation, spit in a professionals face.
 
Zare said:
where I'm from football is a religion, the city has 300k people with all the suburbia,
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My guess:
acf.jpg


I also see no benefit neither way here at the moment.
Apart from it's off-topic for over 4 pages growing fast not coming back to topic at all, no matter of one likes the topic or not, I don't see this is of any constructive value at all here anymore.
 
Zare said:
To be fair Zio is not just a vibe coder. He is someone that put a lot of effort in a lot of corners of FreeBSD in last few years. I've followed the work he started together with a kernel dev on VM/bhyve nvidia passthrough stuff.
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That is awesome, and i applaud that. But he should continue to do similar things without employing AI so much and just blindly relying on it.
Zare said:
I had tons of interactions in my life where a lay person would tell me they have great app or web idea "all they need is a programmer".

Believe me, the level of oblivity shown in those cases is astronomical.
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Been there, done that. Being oblivious is the growing trend of 2026 and its going to be even worse in the future because of AI.
monwarez said:
I would argue that any usage of LLM is only encouraging companies to invest more and more in this technology without any regards on the ecological impact on the planet, the ethical aspect on how the data was sourced, the respect of copyright holders with respect to the licensing terms, and the cybersecurity impact like some supply chain attack on ghost dependencies.

Since you ask, given that you just spit out what the AI says without doing any fact checking, I can say that you employ AI irresponsibly.
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Well said. This is another very important point that many people using AI dont see, or simply chose to ignore because they are selfish.
Zare said:
Yes. Passionate non-engineers should use LLM to learn how to program, and not avoid programming.
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Exactly that. I have nothing against AI if used properly. Your example is perfect. If you are willing and dedicated to learn, with all these AI tools we have today, its never been easier time to learn programming.
Zare said:
And it is completely braindead to claim LLM can replace devs or devs should not have problems working with 'mixed' code while not being one.
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Amen.
 
Had AI not stepped in, I would have carried on as before,mostly—learning by doing—but sooner or later I would have hit a wall. I would have been unable to create anything truly useful or substantial, because, for me at least, the "learning by doing" approach wouldn't have been enough. Without AI, my productivity would be far lower. And by productivity, I mean actually completing the projects I want, not just finishing small fractions of them.
 
You wont be able to create anything useful either way. I dont want to use something that was "created" by someone that has absolutely no clue how "his creation" works under the hood. It doesnt matter if its good or not, i wont use it simply because it was "created by you".
 
If AI lets you get something done great

I cant afford to spend several grand on a GPU to run powerful models locally
or a couple of hundred pounds a year for subscriptions.

So i do it the old fashion way by reading all the man pages and documentation,
and sometimes weeks searching about the subject.

Then logically thinking things through and trying every different permutation and ruling them out,
until through a process of elimination as Sherlock Holmes said "What ever remains must be the truth".

The harder something is the greater the sense of accomplishment when you finally have that Eureka moment
and your logic and theory is correct and you get something working.

Experience only comes from doing something and accumulating knowledge
and using the little grey cells.

if somethings not working i read more documentation, take a step back and try a different approach,
i even dream about code because im that much of a nerd.

Im stubborn like learning and the mental challenge ( which helps keep the black dog at bay )
and dont like admitting defeat until i have exhausted every possibility and have to try a different approach.

There are no bragging rights if you use AI
 
MrBSD said:
You wont be able to create anything useful either way. I dont want to use something that was "created" by someone that has absolutely no clue how "his creation" works under the hood. It doesnt matter if its good or not, i wont use it simply because it was "created by you".
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That's true only partially. As I have already said,I ask Claude a lot of questions to understand the meaning of the code that it writes. Even if I don't ask,Claude does that by default. So,it's true that I'm not able to code,but it's also true that I try to understand the meaning of that particular piece of code. In the end,it's partially true that what Claude and I created is not mine. It's mine because 1) Claude is a tool 2) I say what I want to do 3) I ask to explain to me the meaning of the code that it produces.

The bottom line is that you are too rigid with me; you fail to acknowledge the effort I put into designing and understanding the code, nor do you recognize that the final result is—at least in part—my own work. Your judgment is overly harsh and unbalanced, clouded by preconceptions about how AI works and focused on how—in your view—a user employs it (i.e., poorly) rather than how a responsible user actually uses it. That is where the bad faith comes in.
 
ZioMario said:
The bottom line is that you are too rigid with me; you fail to acknowledge the effort I put into designing and understanding the code, nor do you recognize that the final result is—at least in part—my own work. Your judgment is overly harsh and unbalanced, clouded by preconceptions about how AI works and focused on how—in your view—a user employs it (i.e., poorly) rather than how a responsible user actually uses it. That is where the bad faith comes in.
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Sorry, Mario, but the simple fact that you, by your own admission, don't bother to even get used to read manpages, let alone to learn how to code, tells by itself a lot more about your efforts than your (unbelievably arrogant!) statements.

And please stop saying everywhere that all the developers who tries their best to avoid dealing with current LLMs do that just because they're afraid of the future. Some of us truly are, that's for sure, but for reasons quite different from those you're implying and/or willing to understand.
 
Mario, even your responses here in the thread are generated by an LLM. I can tell that by the extensive use of '—' in your posts. It would be nice if you would say something about it instead of relying on AI even when posting.
 
sualbee said:
Sorry, Mario, but the simple fact that you, by your own admission, don't bother to even get used to read manpages, let alone to learn how to code, tells by itself a lot more about your efforts than your (unbelievably arrogant!) statements.

And please stop saying everywhere that all the developers who tries their best to avoid dealing with current LLMs do that just because they're afraid of the future. Some of us truly are, that's for sure, but for reasons quite different from those you're implying and/or willing to understand.
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I don't read manpages,but I said in different threads that the cause is that I don't understand the documentation that is overly cluttered with technical jargon. However, I do read articles where things are explained in simpler terms and accompanied by practical examples. This kind of pre-digested information finds its ideal application in how AI works, because there is no limit to the questions I can ask.
 
eternal_noob said:
Mario, even your responses here in the thread are generated by an LLM. I can tell that by the extensive use of '—' in your posts. It would be nice if you would say something about it instead of relying on AI even when posting.
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There is no need to use AI to express simple concepts. I would use it, however, when the subject matter is harder to grasp—not to have Claude do the thinking for me, but to help me summarize a discussion the way I want. Or I might use a translator; it depends. In any case, what you are reading are thoughts that originated from my head, not from Claude. Next, please.
 
MrBSD said:
Stubbornness, delusion, ignorance and arrogance. You have it all good sir. Amazing.
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We are not compatible. But you seem to be confused. My reaction is even polite against the deluge of criticism I receive. You don't realize this,at all. Sir,here there is a clear evidence of a different vision of the world and different sensibility and culture. What's amazing is all of this. I don’t know what / which ? kind of answer you’re looking for—or rather, what kind of answer wouldn’t trigger the irritation you feel when you read my words. Perhaps I should simply agree with you on everything ? Then, maybe, you’d use kinder words to describe me. But since we see things differently—and you dislike my point of view—you likely view those differing opinions in a skewed light, portraying me as far worse than I actually am.
 
NapoleonWils0n said:
As any user on the forum will tell you
asking questions without reading the man page is considered really bad form.
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There is something unhealthy about failing to realize that man pages aren't the only resources out there. The web offers plenty of useful documentation on how things work—material that processes and presents information in a different way. That ought to be enough to calm expectations down. But it isn't. It seems, then, that what matters isn't simply that I learn (in my way), but that I should learn in *your* way. That shifts the conversation onto a different track. A broken track.
 
man pages are created by the people who know best
the developer who wrote the software

you cant be sure that other resources are either up to date
or correct unless you compare them to the man page

its not my way it the unix way

if you want people to collaborate they are going to expect you to read man pages
and understand technical jargon

not reading the man pages before asking someone a question
can be seen as a sign of disrespect that you dont value their time
and expect to be spoon feed

thats how a lot of people will take it

saying you dont understand technical jargon
isnt going to fill people with much confidence on such a complex project if you want them to use it
 
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