Vincent Milum's (darkain) open letter to the FreeBSD community

[Cath O'Deray]

Thanks for reading TFA so I didn't have to, BTW.

https://www.allacronyms.com/TFA

So, now I know the meaning. Thanks

this is currently my favourite:

I have a revised favourite from Vince's letter:

🙶… why volunteer for something that ceases to be fun? …🙷​

A good question.

I chose to cease volunteering; I handed back my doc commit bit. From my email, at the time:

quickly, discreetly and without question

 

[Jose]

Probably didn't get the memo. That's a nice red Swingline Stapler you've got there, however. I've been looking for it all the time.

You'll have to pry it from my cold, dead fingers. Fun fact: Swingline didn't make a red stapler when the movie was made. They do now.

 

[sidetone]

The tone in which he describes things that aren't criticisms could be better, as there's a pessimism or negativity outside of the parts he criticized.

When he criticizes people's behavior, I seem to run over it, and have to look back, and realize there is some description lacking. There is some rudeness at times on FreeBSD to others who are new or to old users who try to contribute in new ways they are learning about. Bad arguments seem to be in a minority, as more often, there's friendliness and helpfulness. Discord has a reputation for being toxic, though he described a few instances outside of that venue.

He makes a good point about a setting for power management for Raspberry Pi's to be a default setting, when he points out that configurations for Raspberry install with configuration settings made for it, different than for other architectures. On any FreeBSD system, we need seed files and time to configure. If the setting he suggests is needed for most uses, it should be a default setting. I think it has to be weighed, if that setting is not beneficial in over half of cases. It seems to me, that that setting, would be beneficial in most installs, and be negligible for a few computers that don't need it.

He says, that the definitions of STABLE, RELEASE, CURRENT, RC and so on need to be defined at the top of the page. People who use FreeBSD already know that, It's been explained a billion times, so they need to figure it out. Whoever made an unnecessary additional thread on it in the forums, because they didn't want to read the thread that already existed, but wanted people to answer their redundant questions was being lazy. Besides, the main page says to use the production versions. Pointless argument there.

I didn't read all of it, but skipped around a bit. I think the mailing list would also suffice as an open letter.

There is a pipeline issue of contributors on FreeBSD, but I don't know if it's because of rudeness or because of differences in opinion of what should be a default setting so some people's opinions get ignored. The last I heard before stumbling on the contributor pipeline issue, was that there was trouble with updating ports due to breakages in trying to upgrade Python, which caused frustration and people to leave FreeBSD (but I don't know how true this is). A difficult case like that needs outsourcing by the FreeBSD Foundation, as once that's fixed, it won't need that much burden anymore. Before that, it was an issue of FreeBSD being slow to adopt common technologies, lack of being known about and lack of marketshare, but it's catching up.

One time on here, I mixed up two different users, because they used similar themed names or avatars, thinking one was a hypocrite, as one user was rude to newcomers, then I mistook it for another user who complained how people were rude to newcomers. I actually welcomed both of them, and thought one user who was rude to newcomers, was complaining about people being rude to them. It was later, I realized those weren't the same person. Hypocrisy irritates me for some reason, and it turned out to be two different people than that case, rather than hypocrisy.

 

[cmoerz]

You'll have to pry it from my cold, dead fingers.

The only answer to that is probably "I'll burn this place down."

 

[hansw]

I suppose every project has it's trolls. Do not feed them and move on

 

[thutuid]

He has some good suggestions in the second half of the document.

 

[jbo@]

I just read the letter.

Personally, I'd argue that this is another one of those instances where somebody thinks that FreeBSD has to be the way they want it. If it's not for you it's not for you - that's fine. Move on to something else you like.
I'd furthermore argue that bending a system like this to fit the needs of a particular individual, group or organization results in problems that are observable in the world of Linux.

FreeBSD doesn't (and IMHO shouldn't) try to be for everybody. It provides an excellent works-out-of-the-box experience. But the scope of that is of course very subjective. If one expects a system that just runs on any hardware (like RaspberryPi) with power tuning or with a full desktop, automatic driver detection & download, tuned networking stack and what not then I'd argue FreeBSD is not for them. That FreeBSD doesn't do this is exactly a reason why many of us like & prefer FreeBSD where it fits our requirements.
If you can't figure out how to download & install FreeBSD then either you're motivated & interested enough to learn or it's simply not for you.

The more a system tries to accomplish automatically out-of-the-box the more things will get wrong, the more manpower is needed and the less versatile it becomes. At least for my personal taste FreeBSD strikes a perfect balance here.

As for the "you don't know X" portion of the letter. If that is truly the case then yes - that's not the type of behavior I'd support either. But expecting everybody of a community the size of FreeBSD's to behave 100% correct and nice all the time is probably not going to happen (as much as I'd like it).
Heck, I try to be a nice guy, but I too sometimes say stupid & offensive things. Humans be humans. We all suck one way or another. Sometimes it's even just having a bad day.
If this sort of behavior is systemic then it should be addressed tho.

I'm not even going to touch the "oh look at my skills" and "I don't wanna run a Discord server anymore" type of drama text. Just move on - Vince. We appreciate everything you've done for the project & the community but if it's not for you it's not for you. There's nothing wrong with that and nobody (sensible) will blame you for that.
After all, it's part of the beauty of working with a project like FreeBSD that neither you owe us anything nor do we owe you anything. I might drop all my ports tomorrow and nobody (sensible) will take any offense or engage in hostile actions.

Of course there is nothing wrong with writing and publication of this type of letter. I'd be more worried if it wouldn't happen

 

[Cath O'Deray]

… trolls …

Hey, that's unnecessarily harsh.

… Discord has a reputation for being toxic, …

Maybe elsewhere.

I'm not aware of Discord for FreeBSD having that reputation.

… rudeness …

That can certainly drive a person to resign.

 

[mer]

jbo@
Good stuff, not that I expected anything different
I like your fourth paragraph; optimizing a system is a nontrivial task, workload and resources make a wonderful "I'm juggling running chainsaws here" act.
FreeBSD (and others) has come a long way in the autotuning based on resources; network stack in particular.
Could default values be different based on the architecture being built? Sure, it probably touches a lot of files but in theory an architecture dependent config with defaults would work.
Problem becomes "all my systems are amd64, some are limited resource desktops, others are being used as routers for 10G networks" so what should the defaults be?
That's why the GENERIC kernel config: good enough on average for most things, if it's bad for you, well you probably already have a custom kernel config to rebuild with.

 

[hansw]

Hey, that's unnecessarily harsh.

You are probably right, sorry

 

[msplsh]

This guy isn't asking for much, but some of the things would require somebody who cared about them to maintain them (even if that's very easy to do). Sure, there are people who care, but are they trustworthy to the maintainers? That's where the first part of the letter kicks in. If you were to ask me, a way to explain the sentiment from maintainers that he's getting from his proposals is: If you don't bother to integrate into our culture, why should we trust you to extended it in a way that maintains our values?

 

[mikkol]

Fundamentally people who are using computers as a toy, not as a thing to get work done. I'm not sure I want FreeBSD to appeal to those people.

My commit-bit-less zero bits' worth: when you are not an engineer or a techno-Amish and need to get work done, you may need to use a non-FreeBSD distribution. It depends on the line of work. And you might still otherwise prefer FreebBSD. Your comment about "those people" does imply a certain degree of gate-keeping tendency and exactly the attitude that the original poster was expressing his frustration about.

I see computers in general, and FreeBSD in particular as something that enables performing tasks, solving problems, doing useful work. Not as a purpose of its own. Not something that needs to be played with, but something that needs to be learned, tuned and administered, and understood well.

My commit-bit-less zero bits' worth: I whole-heartedly agree with you that FreeBSD needs to be learned and tuned to be usable. At the same time, the attitude the original poster was expressing his frustration about is a powerful deterrent to anyone needing help learning FreeBSD.

I'd rather have 1 user who uses FreeBSD for 100 weeks (making it their main production platform), than 100 users who use it for a week, and then switch to some Linux distro or yet another OS. In particular, I'd rather have 1 user who learns the ins and outs of FreeBSD, and can meaningfully contribute (whether it with volunteer maintenance, packaging or development work, with money, or with giving good advice).

I'd rather see 1 place/party/company that will not treat newbies as undesirable low-lifes or that will even accept money for educating a person than a list of 100 parties that will not react to contacts in any way. Such a list is published on the FreeBSD website under the heading "Consulting Services" with false implications that it might be a source of help.

---------------------------------

I understand that when one is used to the way things are and one has gained high reputation within a certain group, one does not want things to change or allow for a possibility for things to change, and that one tends to treat lesser people with a certain amount of spite. This is not inherently evil. This is perfectly natural human behavior, manifested countless times in long-ruling dictators, for instance, and also in online communities.

I understand that when one spends more time interacting with computers than interacting with people, one is at risk of having sub-par social skills. A brilliant example of this is Linus Torvalds: a brilliant developer, the god almighty of Github and the Linux kernel, and, in his own words, "not a nice person."

The original poster chose to express his frustration in the way he did. The commentaries here are belittling him in a number of ways. Ralphbsz, for example, is building a false assumption that his C coding would have remained unchanged for 25 years. Another commentator is saying that the poster's text was not worthy of reading because he mentioned his YouTube channel, and therefore anything he writes is bound to be attention-prostitution and a means to getting visitors to his channel.

The attitude the poster is frustrated about is present. It's not as bad at all as what I have seen at Stack Exchange, but it's there. My solution to the attitude has been to stop expecting to get any help here, just use the system that I have and trust that it will do well. The operating system itself works beautifully. No hiccup, no crash—and not a lot of features that I would use because there is no user-friendly source of help. It's either "spend several weeks reading the entire documentation before even installing the base system, and then you will have a perfect system that does everything for you, including getting the Moon from the sky" or "use at your own risk with no help provided."

Because, contrary to what the prevailing attitude among the community might expect from my very few posts and from the line of work I do (if it was known), I am not a complete schmuck, I have a system that runs and it does so without help from the community. And I am that one user that uses FreeBSD for more than those 100 weeks, and yet the low-life that would not mind if help was actually available, in a non-hostile way.

But hey, this is still a much better place than Stack Exchange. Here I have had to ban only one person. Stack Exchange was too inbred to tolerate at all.

Finally, my apologies to all techno-Amishes with good social skills.

 

[PMc]

It's either "spend several weeks reading the entire documentation before even installing the base system, and then you will have a perfect system that does everything for you, including getting the Moon from the sky" or "use at your own risk with no help provided."

And what's the problem with that? When You buy some machine, say e.g. a modern printing-press, or a forest harvester, do you expect to operate that machine without spending a few weeks reading the docs and learning the skills of the craft?

Now, some people need a machine to do solid industry-grade work, and Berkeley/FreeBSD was always designed for that. Other people may just want to run a computer as their desktop, to do surfing, gaming, watching tv. Any machine will suit for that, but, if you decide to ride the timber harvester for the shopping tour, you certainly do that at your own risk.

 

[Jose]

Personally, I'd argue that this is another one of those instances where somebody thinks that FreeBSD has to be the way they want it. If it's not for you it's not for you - that's fine. Move on to something else you like.

Exactly. There are so many of these, I didn't feel the need to read it at all.

Freebsd doesn't do something you want or doesn't work in the way you think it should.

• Roll up your sleeves and create a brand new Linux subsystem from scratch (for example.)
• Write a whine-o-gram about how Freebsd would be so much better if it wasn't so full of toxic techno-Amish people.

The former is productive behavior. The latter just stokes drama and negative feelings. I have no patience left for that nonsense.

 

[mikkol]

And what's the problem with that? When You buy some machine, say e.g. a modern printing-press, or a forest harvester, do you expect to operate that machine without spending a few weeks reading the docs and learning the skills of the craft?

Now, some people need a machine to do solid industry-grade work, and Berkeley/FreeBSD was always designed for that. Other people may just want to run a computer as their desktop, to do surfing, gaming, watching tv. Any machine will suit for that, but, if you decide to ride the timber harvester for the shopping tour, you certainly do that at your own risk.

When you get yourself a forest harvester, you don't need to read about the production process of all the bolts used in it, and you can get help using it from the manufacturer.

I don't know if you notice but you and the one I was quoting in the beginning both seem to assume that either one uses a computer as a toy or then one will read several years' worth of documentation just to get the operating system running, and that there is no room in between.

I'm a serious user in the sense that I have chosen FreeBSD because of its inherent support for ZFS, which gives me a lot of peace of mind when it comes to storing my data and my customers' data on my server. I fully understand that ZFS alone does not do it, but it's a very good starting point. And yet, because I do not get paid for using FreeBSD nor do I work as a nerd for hire but, instead, run FreeBSD in my residential house's basement on old Dell servers, I fall into the category of not serious user who uses the computer as a toy, if you are to believe. It's not a toy. It's a storage system that, when screwed up, will screw up my income, too. I'm dead serious about it.

Asserting that it's either (manufacturing) industry-grade work or surfing is exactly the kind of attitude that the original poster was frustrated about.

 

[kpedersen]

When you get yourself a forest harvester, you don't need to read about the production process of all the bolts used in it, and you can get help using it from the manufacturer.

But would you not find it odd that someone would specifically choose a brand of forest harvester where they did specifically need to read about the production process of all the bolts used in it rather than choose one of the many other brands (provided by Linux, Apple, Microsoft) where the manufacturer is more than happy to provide that service instead?

I personally don't see why some people feel that the "techno-Amish" aren't allowed to keep on using their nice things the way that they have been doing. Surely the fact that the other projects aren't desirable to such a person still demanding change suggests perhaps that the way the "masses" tends to gravitate towards aren't correct? Maybe they should learn and give the "techno-Amish" life a try.

 

[mikkol]

But would you not find it odd that someone would specifically choose a brand of forest harvester where they did specifically need to read about the production process of all the bolts used in it rather than choose one of the many other brands (provided by Linux, Apple, Microsoft) where the manufacturer is more than happy to provide that service instead?

I personally don't see why some people feel that the "techno-Amish" aren't allowed to keep on using their nice things the way that they have been doing. Surely the fact that the other projects aren't desirable suggests perhaps that the way the "masses" tends to gravitate towards aren't correct?

No, you misunderstand me. I like FreeBSD. I like it the way it is. I don't want to change it. I don't want to change even the people. I know I cannot change the people, so, for the most part, I'm simply ignoring their existence and avoiding them.

What I am doing is explaining my perception of the source of frustration of the original poster.

 

[PMc]

When you get yourself a forest harvester, you don't need to read about the production process of all the bolts used in it, and you can get help using it from the manufacturer.

Yeah, that is part of the deal.

I don't know if you notice but you and the one I was quoting in the beginning both seem to assume that either one uses a computer as a toy or then one will read several years' worth of documentation just to get the operating system running, and that there is no room in between.

I'm a serious user in the sense that I have chosen FreeBSD because of its inherent support for ZFS, which gives me a lot of peace of mind when it comes to storing my data and my customers' data on my server. I fully understand that ZFS alone does not do it, but it's a very good starting point. And yet, because I do not get paid for using FreeBSD nor do I work as a nerd for hire but, instead, run FreeBSD in my residential house's basement on old Dell servers, I fall into the category of not serious user who uses the computer as a toy, if you are to believe.

Well then, I do, too. Mine are not even Dell, they're mostly from the garbage heap.
Bottomline: it is entirely up to you what you consider yourself.

It's not a toy. It's a storage system that, when screwed up, will screw up my income, too. I'm dead serious about it.

That is not an uncommon situation. And the solution to it is business consultants.
This is a capitalist land, you cannot blame the Central Commitee for not providing the help that you consider needed for what you want to do. But you can buy it.

 

[jbo@]

When you get yourself a forest harvester, you don't need to read about the production process of all the bolts used in it, and you can get help using it from the manufacturer.

It's difficult to discuss these analogies without running into the risk of nit-picking all over the place frustrating everybody in the process. However, in this case I would like to point out that when you purchase such a machine you're inherently paying for corresponding services. This does not apply to FreeBSD. You download it for free.

The potentially better suiting equivalent would be making a purchase of an appliance running FreeBSD under the hood from a commercial entity selling you a system (and support). Neither FreeBSD as a project nor the Foundation nor Community does this.
If you sign a contract with a commercial FreeBSD support/consulting entity you'd knock at their door - not a the door of FreeBSD. Similar to how you'd knock at the door of JohnDeer when a component of your harvester is not working rather than knocking at the door of the manufacturer of a hydraulic pump found in that machine.

 

[mikkol]

This is a capitalist land, you cannot blame the Central Commitee for not providing the help that you consider needed for what you want to do. But you can buy it.

I don't know what land you are referring to. Chances are that we are in different countries. And contrary to what you are claiming, no, I can't. If even one of the service providers listed under the heading bothered to react, I could. But given that they don't, I can't.

 

[mikkol]

It's difficult to discuss these analogies without running into the risk of nit-picking all over the place frustrating everybody in the process. However, in this case I would like to point out that when you purchase such a machine you're inherently paying for corresponding services. This does not apply to FreeBSD. You download it for free.

You are absolutely right. See my post from 30 seconds ago.

 

[PMc]

I don't know what land you are referring to. Chances are that we are in different countries.

You're apparently not from China, so basically what I said will hold.

And contrary to what you are claiming, no, I can't. If even one of the service providers listed under the heading bothered to react, I could. But given that they don't, I can't.

Sure you can. (Whether you can afford it, well, that's a different matter.) I myself happened to work as such business consultant for twenty years, helping people to properly run their IT and secure their income. Then the cloud appeared, and management considered that people do no longer need to rent skill, as now they can rent cloud. So if people are in lack of skill, they can simply rent more cloud. I am not sure how that would work out, anyway, bottomline was, I was fired.
So, maybe, if somebody would ask in a polite fashion (and bring along some beer), many things could be possible.

 

[mikkol]

You're apparently not from China, so basically what I said will hold.


Sure you can. (Whether you can afford it, well, that's a different matter.) I myself happened to work as such business consultant for twenty years, helping people to properly run their IT and secure their income. Then the cloud appeared, and management considered that people do no longer need to rent skill, as now they can rent cloud. So if people are in lack of skill, they can simply rent more cloud. I am not sure how that would work out, anyway, bottomline was, I was fired.
So, maybe, if somebody would ask in a polite fashion (and bring along some beer), many things could be possible.

I can post an ASCII art picture of a beer here. It will not help you get any in real life. When the sources of help are allegedly listed under the heading Help and those parties do not respond and when other requests for help are met with "read the fucking documentation," "don't use the system if you don't know all about it," "if you have to ask, it's not for you," "whine-o-gram," "go away," etc. or references to the list of non-sources of help, I'm out of options.

Yes. Today I'm less polite than normally because today I am reminded of the attitude here. No. Today I don't need the help. Another day I might, but I cannot provide beer online. I will likely not provide it in person, either, since I don't use any, and since I really rather would out-right pay for the service than start sending beer across the globe.

My initial long text was a countering of Ralphbsz's implied claim that there is no attitude problem and an explanation that it happens naturally. The rest of it is the frustrating nit-picking or frustration that another poster referred to.

 

[mer]

The potentially better suiting equivalent would be making a purchase of an appliance running FreeBSD under the hood from a commercial entity selling you a system (and support).

I give you Netgate and pfSense as a good example of this.
pfSense is the software bit, based on FreeBSD
Netgate sells hardware (firewalls) that come with the latest version of pfSense installed.
You get support from Netgate for issues found on their devices, they fix locally and push changes back upstream to the FreeBSD project.

 

[Cath O'Deray]

… the main page says to use the production versions. …

Do you mean the home page, or the main download page?

From the FreeBSD Project home page: