synth updated today unmantained?

marino

Daemon

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Messages: 1,091

the new system would compete with ports, pkgsrc, and every other s/w building system that already exists.
On that system, functionality similar to synth would be inbuilt.
It would not be make-based, so it would be impossible to build on a live system.

The interface would be like synth on steroids (search, info, options handling, etc), but there would not be any separate tools like portupgrade/portmaster/poudriere/synth/etc.

It's not just a dressed-up ports, it's something new.
More importantly, unlike all those other systems I mentioned, it's not tied to any single platform or operating system.
Submissions would be integration tested against all supported platforms. Sanity-and-validity checking are also inbuilt so it's basically impossible to commit a faulty port.

so no, it would not be appropriate to name the whole system after an interface it was roughly inspired by...
 

marino

Daemon

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Messages: 1,091

With incidents like this you'll always be hearing one sided stories, no matter who you ask. But to be honest I can't say that this comes as a surprise to me, solely based on what I read throughout when I briefly tested Synth for myself. Once you start announcing how you're superior to everything else no matter what then - in my opinion - something definitely isn't right.

Correction 1: it was said synth is superior, not me.
Observation 1: You're suggesting I was banished because I said my program was better than 2 specific pieces of software?

And of course we now hear that this decision is bad and that no one did anything wrong, etc, etc. Every time someone gets some kind of punishment then only a minority lives up to it and picks up the pieces. Most will deny it, followed by other outings and I dunno what's next because I usually stopped caring by then.

I've been forthcoming.
Feel free to discover or get somebody to say the "real" reason.
As of this moment, I don't what illustrated the "did not improve", when it happened, or how many times.
No evidence has been given to me or anyone else.

I'm a top 5 ports committer and have been for 3 straight years.
You are free to decide if FreeBSD is better off this week than last week without my contributions.

Note: I'm not judging here, I'm only commenting on things which I recognize because I've seen issues like these happen a lot (not necessarily within the FreeBSD community).

Have you ever heard of Matt Dillon?
 

chrbr

Aspiring Daemon

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Messages: 870

It's true that I was warned a few months ago, but it's not true that I continued the behavior.
Dear marino@,
at the when you started ports-mgmt/synth I think the tone with respect to ports-mgmt/portmaster has been a little bit offensive.

After some time it was the other way around. All claims as ports-mgmt/synth needs much resources, ports-mgmt/synth swaps, ports-mgmt/synth hangs on my small machine are in my opinion common restrictions which I also observe with ports-mgmt/poudriere if I want to get too much out of my box. But you and others have explained with patience the restrictions where ports-mgmt/synth could never be blamed for. To be honest I really wondered how you could be so patient because some claims have been quite offensive, at least from my point of view. I have learned from that discussions.

May be there has happened more behind the scene I have not been aware of as a small user. Thank you for maintaining all the other ports, too. I hope the time could be turned back a little bit. I am still happy with ports-mgmt/poudriere which I started to use a few weeks before ports-mgmt/synth has been introduced where many others are happy with. I think one can use ports-mgmt/portmaster with some care and be successful, too. It is good to have the choice and I hope this will not change.
 
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ASX

Guest


I am now the maintainer of the synth ports.
Thanks, with all due respect I would have preferred the proper solutions, restore the committer status of marino@ .

To be honest I really wondered how you could be so patient because some claims have been quite offensive
Yep, there has been times like that ... where I was expecting some rude reaction ... didn't happened.
 

abishai

Aspiring Daemon

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Messages: 767

I think one can use ports-mgmt/portmaster with some care and be successful, too. It is good to have the choice and I hope this will not change.
I use portmaster everywhere except my laptop, where I use synth and portmaster in conjuction (synth to compile, portmaster to set and maintain port options as synth can't do this). The idea behind synth is rather good to skip it entirely.
 
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ASX

Guest


I'm a top 5 ports committer and have been for 3 straight years.

I would guess that by doing so you have been exposed to a lot of controversy about ports management, certainly much more than other ports committers.

Then it would be interesting to evaluate the weighted amount of "bad interactions" among the total commits:
read: the more you do, the more are the chance you interact badly ... and then you will be punished.

I'm still waiting for some documented facts.
 

marino

Daemon

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I would guess that by doing so you have been exposed to a lot of controversy about ports management, certainly much more than other ports committers.

Then it would be interesting to evaluate the weighted amount of "bad interactions" among the total commits:
read: the more you do, the more are the chance you interact badly ... and then you will be punished.

That's very astute of you.
It's easy to keep your nose clean when you make 20 commits a year.

I rebuild the entire tree about every 2 weeks.
I find global problems sometimes before the freebsd cluster machines do.
There are very few committers that have such a global view of the tree.
Since it's too time consuming to talk to every port maintainer to fix, I frequently fixed with "just-fix-it blanket".
That's against the old ways and caused friction with old soul committers, but it was within the new rules.

The real friction is that a non-insignificant percentage of commits were to fix DragonFly.
Some people are offended by this and think DF fixes have no place in FreeBSD tree. Most don't, but a few were really against this.
These people are happy to see me booted, I can tell you that.

So yes, the sheer number of commits (over 3500) plus the coverage is very much at the heart of all this. Because just about every aspect of the tree had a impact, I had my fingers in a lot, far more than the average committer.
 

xtaz

Well-Known Member

Reaction score: 142
Messages: 472

I can understand removing a commit bit but I don't get why they needed to remove the maintainer from the port. Being a maintainer on a port doesn't need any special privileges. Could have just continued to update the ports via submitting a PR.
 

Chris_H

Daemon

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Messages: 1,076

I appreciate the sentiment, but I wouldn't want anyone to do anything on my account.
...
Hello, John. I didn't catch this thread on the Forums until this AM.
But caught this one on the ML, and I had this to say. Hope you don't mind
Code:
> Occasionally we’re called to account for our decisions, reflect upon their
> correctness and at times reverse the decision.
>
>
>
> John Marino (John) has conducted himself with a passion for making
> decisions in the interests of ports' users over many years with great
> professionalism and enthusiasm.

I'm usually very much disinclined to get even remotely involved
in what may appear to be political / internal drama. But in this
instance, I feel strongly compelled to respond.

I met John through my initial interest in getting involved in
the ports system -- maintaining ports.
I immediately recognized that John was a man of strong convictions.
He was always outspoken -- he spoke "straight", and I greatly
appreciated it! We had many disagreements. I'm strong minded, and
as a result, resistant to change. But I must humbly admit that I
ultimately had to agree with John nearly every time.
As a result I have a tremendous amount of respect for John -- he
earned it! Some may find outspoken people abrasive, or undesirable,
and reject them. If that's the case here; I can easily say they're
missing the forest, for the trees. Sound reasonable advice, and
knowledge is good; no matter *what* tone it's spoken.
I can tell you this; John gave me a leg up, into becoming a ports
maintainer. He must have done a fair job, in my opinion. As I
currently maintain over 100 (one hundred) ports. I have but one
outstanding pr(1). Which I was working on, when I read this message.
I can also tell you; because of my strong mindedness, I was *not*
an ideal candidate for a mentor. I can assure you, I challenged
John's patience a number of times. But out of his guidance, and
insistence TDTRT. I've managed to maintain the number of ports I
do today.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is this;
John demands the best. Which produces high quality output from
those whom work with him. If John Marino has been excommunicated
from FreeBSD. The only looser will be FreeBSD itself.

My writeup on this is due to the OP alluding to the reason for
John's expulsion somehow being related to his "outspokenness".
Something *I* found to be a *great* *attribute*.

Thanks for all your time, and consideration.

--Chris
The ML thread is titled:
Expulsion of John Marino - reasons and impact?
But maybe you already caught it.

I have very strong feelings about this situation. But have chosen to give myself a "cool off"
period, before acting upon them.

I wish you all the very best. Whatever, or where ever this ends. If you do get
excommunicated. It will be FreeBSD' loss -- nothing like cutting you're nose off, to spite
your face. :-/

--Chris
 

marino

Daemon

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Messages: 1,091

Thanks Chris. Yes, I did see that post and I greatly appreciate the sentiment you project. This thing is starting to take a life of it's own (I see the topic on BSD/Reddit now too).

I guess I just made too many omelets.
Life goes on. You could view this whole thing as favor, actually, because I'm recovering tons of free time. :)
 
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ASX

Guest


Life goes on. You could view this whole thing as favor, actually, because I'm recovering tons of free time. :)

I'm glad you take the positive side on this issue.

As for myself, I'm personally disgusted, particularly about the core team and specifically about the lack of proper action from the core team, enough for me to leave FreeBSD.

My personal thank you for all your work, I learned a lot from you!
 

tankist02

Well-Known Member

Reaction score: 47
Messages: 326

Can we start a petition "Reinstate John Marino" or something? I appreciated a lot his work on Synth, quick fixing of broken ports and detailed explanations how the ports system works. Compare this to 9 months it took to do a little fix for news/pan (PR 199303). I see complains that FreeBSD needs more developers - and then they fire a really good one. With a rather vague explanation. What's going on with the project leadership?
 

PacketMan

Aspiring Daemon

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Messages: 958

I know me and John rubbed our noses a few times, but in the big scheme of things, I think what he has done is sheer brilliance. Yeah his personality might be a bit strong, but so is mine, and (not bragging or comparing here) so was Winston Churchill, and a whole pile of other men and woman who have made humanity and life of earth a whole lot better. Frankly I appreciate his blunt no tippy toeing around cut to the chase explanations; even if I don't agree with all of them, and even if a couple of em were to me. To the leadership of FreeBSD - please reinstate John Marino.

Can we start a petition "Reinstate John Marino" or something? I

Get it going, and I'll put my name on it.
 

marino

Daemon

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Messages: 1,091

I wasn't asked if I wanted to continue as a regular maintainer though. They just gave me the ports back with the assumption I'm going to be happy opening PR after PR and waiting for former colleagues to commit them.

In other words, if they had asked me directly if I wanted them back, I would have said "no, leave them without a maintainer".
 
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ASX

Guest


Out of all this I asked to have my forum account removed. All the Best.

ASX
 

Nasrudin

Member

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Messages: 48

I've been forthcoming.
Feel free to discover or get somebody to say the "real" reason.
As of this moment, I don't what illustrated the "did not improve", when it happened, or how many times.
No evidence has been given to me or anyone else.

It is this assertion, coupled with the silence of those responsible, that invites the conclusion of impropriety from whomever is responsible for your loss of commit bit.

I believe open source should have open processes, and for the same reasons that source is open. It's too bad FreeBSD core will likely never consider this idea. Being parental can be addicting, and sadly this damages them more than anyone else.
 

marino

Daemon

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Messages: 1,091

Thanks eric,
why don't you keep it for now?
I haven't decided what to do about all these ports. As I mentioned earlier today, they didn't ask what I wanted to do; they were all just reassigned back to me (minus synth and zstd).
 

fernandel

Daemon

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Messages: 1,025

I wasn't asked if I wanted to continue as a regular maintainer though. They just gave me the ports back with the assumption I'm going to be happy opening PR after PR and waiting for former colleagues to commit them.

In other words, if they had asked me directly if I wanted them back, I would have said "no, leave them without a maintainer".
I will do the same...but:
From DOS, OS/2, Debian, Slackware, FreeBSD....and who knows I will ask you for help on DragonFly soon :)
Thank you for all help with your Synth.
 
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