Pedantic discussion (split off from 'Questions about installing, removing packages')

Status
Not open for further replies.
drhowarddrfine said:
These are directories and not the graphical concept of folders which is not the same thing
Click to expand...
I'm talking about directories. Specifically, the /var/cache/pkg directory contains the packages that were installed on the FreeBSD system
Another point: Saying directory or folder is not wrong, as graphically the icons are designed like folders, to represent the directories!

I can see the contents of directories both through the terminal and using a File Manager that displays folder icons.

Therefore, it is completely irrelevant how the user is or is not viewing the contents of the directory. This in no way creates a problem for the pkg clean command, which can be run both in the shell and in a graphical environment using a terminal

I didn't understand what you meant! Can you explain better?
What do you mean about folder graphic concept?
 
apprentice said:
What do you mean about folder graphic concept?
Click to expand...
A directory contains the references to files and other directories, preferably with an index file. A folder comes from a Manila folder holding documents. You can't display a Manila folder in a console or non-graphical environment. And how do you mount a drive into a Manila folder?

There's more to it but I'm on vacation and sitting in an airport.
 
apprentice said:
… Saying directory or folder is not wrong, as graphically the icons are designed like folders, …
Click to expand...

That's a fair observation.

Most computer users who see the word folder will understand what's meant. Fewer users will understand the meaning of directory.

Using the word folder to describe a directory is rarely problematic.

A 2022 status report for containers and FreeBSD used the phrase "… mount-out to remove or unmount a previously mount-in folder or filesystem, …". The related bsdpot organisation, in GitHub, uses a mixture. And so on …
 

Attachments

  • 1715653652618.png
    1715653652618.png
    162.4 KB · Views: 25
This is the reasoning that gets people confused, stumbling and fumbling and why people today think hackers are the same as crackers.

Long term use of original, understood terms should always be the norm especially considering the source of any new terms by the general public, the dazed and confused.
 
drhowarddrfine said:
This is the reasoning that gets people confused, stumbling and fumbling and why people today think hackers are the same as crackers.

Long term use of original, understood terms should always be the norm especially considering the source of any new terms by the general public, the dazed and confused.
Click to expand...
I think you are confused!
The same people and companies that created this whole concept are the same ones that decided to call directories folders! Starting with Windows that showed folder icons!
And this was followed by all computing companies, and all operating systems do the same! Only you who thinks differently!

As I said, it's not the people who named the folders!
It was the Companies, the Programmers who created the operating systems, that is, the entire industry and technology companies responsible for this!

And in my opinion, as they are the creators, it is their right to define what they want to be right or wrong, to make sense or not, in what they created!And in my opinion, as they are the creators, it is their right to define what they want to be right or wrong, to make sense or not, in what they created!

FreeBSD Handbook: https://docs.freebsd.org/en/books/porters-handbook/testing/index.html
will scan the distfiles folder, DISTFILES_CACHE in poudriere.conf
Click to expand...

https://docs.freebsd.org/en/books/handbook/bsdinstall/index.html
Download it from win32diskimager home page and extract it into a folder.
Click to expand...
FreeBSD uses the term folder rather than directory throughout its Handbook.

And then? Are those who wrote the Handbook and those who authorized its publication wrong? Are you confused? I do not think so!

They use the term folder as a synonym for easy understanding, because it has been like this since the beginning of the computing era! Because folders and files existed long before the computer, and the way of archiving and storing information was copied to the computer. That's the story, not the other way around!
 
apprentice said:
The same people and companies that created this whole concept are the same ones that decided to call directories folders! Starting with Windows that showed folder icons!
Click to expand...
This acknowledges my point. They're directories first. Them someone created the graphical concept of a folder. All that I already stated.

And it wasn't Microsoft who came up with the original idea.
 
apprentice said:
… FreeBSD uses the term folder rather than directory throughout its Handbook. …
Click to expand...

Not entirely, there's a mixture.

FreeBSD Documentation Project (FDP) writing style guidelines cover things such as clarity and formality. Very few specifics (no mention of directory or folder).

The pictured use of directory is wrong, for the audience.
 

Attachments

  • 1715892534849.png
    1715892534849.png
    65.3 KB · Views: 30
Cath O'Deray said:
Yep, often synonymous.
Click to expand...
Often used as a synonym but that doesn't make it so. And it's not.

Here's an example of the problems (sort of) where clarity can become an issue.
I often tell people that, "All crackers are hackers but not all hackers are crackers." That might blow a lot of people's minds who think they are one in the same. But that's a word that the general public used incorrectly. Then the so-called "news" bureaus picked up on it and now here we are (most) all using the terms incorrectly. It's often used as a synonym.

Clarity is the key. When one talks about "folders", I'd bet most of us get at least a tickle in the back of our mind making us wonder if we're talking about Windows or a Mac or some other desktop system. More than once I've had meetings or discussions where we got off on the wrong track due to this misinformation. Or at least we needed to stop and ask for guidance.

Be clear in your writing.

I often find that I can tell in a conversation the level of expertise of a person by the words they use in their talk. The conversations use different terms when talking to an amateur or a hobbyist versus a computer scientist, engineer, or one who is serious student of the industry. Similar to how you can pick up the level of education of someone by the words they choose and the structure of their sentences.

I once gave a talk in front of some doctors about a computer product I had designed. It was brief but descriptive about how it could help them in their work. I thought I came across as pretty knowledgeable about how they would use my machine.

After the talk, one of the doctors had a few questions for me. As I answered him, he corrected me on the pronunciation of a medical term I used throughout my talk. Embarrassment ensued.
 
drhowarddrfine said:
Often used as a synonym but that doesn't make it so. And it's not.

Here's an example of the problems (sort of) where clarity can become an issue.
I often tell people that, "All crackers are hackers but not all hackers are crackers." That might blow a lot of people's minds who think they are one in the same. But that's a word that the general public used incorrectly. Then the so-called "news" bureaus picked up on it and now here we are (most) all using the terms incorrectly. It's often used as a synonym.

Clarity is the key. When one talks about "folders", I'd bet most of us get at least a tickle in the back of our mind making us wonder if we're talking about Windows or a Mac or some other desktop system. More than once I've had meetings or discussions where we got off on the wrong track due to this misinformation. Or at least we needed to stop and ask for guidance.

Be clear in your writing.

I often find that I can tell in a conversation the level of expertise of a person by the words they use in their talk. The conversations use different terms when talking to an amateur or a hobbyist versus a computer scientist, engineer, or one who is serious student of the industry. Similar to how you can pick up the level of education of someone by the words they choose and the structure of their sentences.

I once gave a talk in front of some doctors about a computer product I had designed. It was brief but descriptive about how it could help them in their work. I thought I came across as pretty knowledgeable about how they would use my machine.

After the talk, one of the doctors had a few questions for me. As I answered him, he corrected me on the pronunciation of a medical term I used throughout my talk. Embarrassment ensued.
Click to expand...

Look, I understand your point of view! I'll explain why: I never liked synonyms! All over the world, there are a lot of things absurdly and chaotically wrong!

Starting with communication. Each country has its own language as a pure matter of egocentrism. All languages invent different ways of naming the same thing. Those who consider themselves intelligent and fluent in their languages and who write them are nothing more than egocentric.

Instead of facilitating communication, they create words and synonyms to make it even more difficult. Where is the intelligence in this?
If you are going to communicate, you need to make it easier, because when communication becomes difficult, you are going backwards.

Brief Summary, communication throughout our known universe is CHAOS because the ignorance of trying to prove that one is better than the other outweighs the work that is done to improve the World.
Imagine this in the area of medicine and science? It's the same chaos!

When in my country, I see an illiterate president (Lula Ladrão) who couldn't pass Kindergarten, didn't receive any votes, stole to be elected, and people who have higher education allow this...
I'm also outraged by all this chaos!

The Lesson I learn from rare people in the world is: Make a difference!
 
apprentice said:
Look, I understand your point of view! I'll explain why: I never liked synonyms! All over the world, there are a lot of things absurdly and chaotically wrong!

Starting with communication. Each country has its own language as a pure matter of egocentrism. All languages invent different ways of naming the same thing. Those who consider themselves intelligent and fluent in their languages and who write them are nothing more than egocentric.

Instead of facilitating communication, they create words and synonyms to make it even more difficult. Where is the intelligence in this?
If you are going to communicate, you need to make it easier, because when communication becomes difficult, you are going backwards.

Brief Summary, communication throughout our known universe is CHAOS because the ignorance of trying to prove that one is better than the other outweighs the work that is done to improve the World.
Imagine this in the area of medicine and science? It's the same chaos!

When in my country, I see an illiterate president (Lula Ladrão) who couldn't pass Kindergarten, didn't receive any votes, stole to be elected, and people who have higher education allow this...
I'm also outraged by all this chaos!

The Lesson I learn from rare people in the world is: Make a difference!
Click to expand...
I agree with everything you said and I'm only replying to say that I noticed the same thing.
Languages evolved gradually where words were created to describe an increasingly precise degree of discrete [distinct] nuances [differences] and set of circumstances. This is especially true during the 18th and 19th centuries. However, in modern times languages have evolved to create distinct words, especially in scientific fields, where a colloquial [common] preexisting synonym would work just as well with greater clarity.

The over-use of these scientific terms obfuscates [confuses] and convolutes [complicates] the message. :)

It can also be a faux pas [social blunder], in the English language, to reuse the same descriptive word multiple times in a sentence, which is where many synonyms come from, common and esoteric [not common].
 
SirDice said:
Split this mess off.
Click to expand...
I apologize if I intruded although I wasn't attempting any execrable [bad] offenses nor was it meant to be with temerity [recklessness] nor zeal [passion], but there does appear to be a miscommunication when individuals utilize linguistic terms which are unfamiliar with the audience. There is no need to animadvert [comment critically]. My sobriquet [nickname] gets the best of me at times.
 
drhowarddrfine said:
These are directories and not the graphical concept of folders which is not the same thing
Click to expand...
I first came across the use of folder as a synonym of directory in MH message handling system in 1982 (the implementors' use goes back to 1977 when Stockton Gaines and Norm Shapiro made the first proposal for it while at the Rand Corporation. They even use subfolder for subdirectory! The word "directory" probably came from the *implementation* (a list of name, inode-number), while "folder" indicates how it is used (analogous to how physical files can be put in folders). Not to mention it is shorter!
 
We also have correctness in Reddit. Two or three years ago, and so on, different people. I refrain from linking, because Reddit, also because I can't easily select text on the dull old CRT that I am.

Also, whilst Cath O'Deray (occupation: Tube) leans towards correct, traditional use of the cathode ray tube (pictured) as a TV screen, I refrain from sharing screenshots.
 
drhowarddrfine said:
… nothing pedantic …
Click to expand...

Synonyms lead to words such as precise – a good thing.

Context is everything – for some things, there's a time, and a place. A profile post might have been a good place to discuss, with apprentice, precise use of the word directory.

Re: the distinction, Aaron Toponce once used the word gatekeepers. He's suitably knowledgeable (screenshots attached).

We can be pedantic about words such as pedantic, once, everything, and gatekeeping, however IMHO this topic is not the place.

HTH
 

Attachments

  • 1716104725744.png
    1716104725744.png
    73.6 KB · Views: 27
  • 1716104803696.png
    1716104803696.png
    37.4 KB · Views: 28
Cath O'Deray Your opinion on my attempt to stop incorrect usage of a term is not needed. One should always point out incorrect terminology no matter the place. Otherwise, as I pointed out earlier, incorrect usage proliferates and turns into standard usage.

There is no point in your continuing this thread. My point is made and everyone else has moved on including me.
 
Well, my dear old dad used to refer to these entities as files, containing decks. He was used to punch cards. No matter how you call something, it will not change the thing. So this is a rather silly discussion. Anyway, I miss the drawer icon for this.
 
What goes around comes around.

The next generation will become frustrated that people no longer call them "Folders" but instead call them "TikTok Containers".
After all, they don't "Fold" anything do they? Their only purpose is to contain TikTok videos.

In general, I do agree with drhowarddrfine . Trying to use correct terminology (or learning as you go!) is what keeps the quality of discussion and separates us from the animals. ;)

(Obviously, the other animals on the ark are nowhere nearly as pedantic...)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top