On usability by neophytes

Exactly. And if we went on the Microsoft Windows forums and suggested that they strip the OS down to the core NT kernel and extra lean userland because we find it more user-friendly (and it would be!), they will tell us to bog off ;)
Oh man, I so wish I could buy Windows LTSC. It's ridiculously expensive, and requires jumping through all kinds of enterprise hoops, though. Think about that. They charge you more for less.
 
Oh man, I so wish I could buy Windows LTSC. It's ridiculously expensive, and requires jumping through all kinds of enterprise hoops, though. Think about that. They charge you more for less.
Yeah, the only way for people like us to get the "good stuff" is outside commercial channels. That said, it is all archived nicely on archive.org. If you want newer, the key task is finding the correct HASH for the version you want and then a quick google is enough to find many download opportunities. (The Windows DRM cracks are also pretty decent these days in their mechanism (+open source). They simply run a tiny local activation server emulator and the install activates against localhost).

That said, also check out Server Core. It ditches the UI and all the additional bloat that comes with Windows these days. For things like Cygwin/X11, it provides a decent host.
 
Whatever people, personally, think about the importance of being intentionally difficult, here's the 15.0 planning notes from the developer's summit. After reading these comments and then seeing the "graphical installer" and "mash enter until done" I get a good chuckle. I think maintainers don't agree with you. Which is fine. Nobody's taking your "complexity" away from you, just the gatekeeping.
Who said anything about FreeBSD being in any way intentionally difficult? The whole point of UNIX was to be simple. FreeBSD is just that and it's always improving. Sensible defaults are good. They're the basis for learning. Whether or not an installer being graphical adds anything to usability is up for some debate though. If someone wants to code it, knock yourself out. Prediction: the return on investment is going to be very disappointing.
 
Who said anything about FreeBSD being in any way intentionally difficult?
Even if the FreeBSD developers made an installer that could be controlled with people's nipples, these guys would still say its too difficult XD

Some people are going to end up disappointed regardless. macOS and Windows luckily "wash" the majority of these guys away from technical communities.

I feel, two companies surrounding FreeBSD are recently trying to accrue a potential market, so are appearing to be more inviting to these kinds of users. However when push comes to shove, there is not the development man power to support the masses. At least the OpenBSD/NetBSD community are realistic enough to tell them to shove off.

gatekeeping.
Is it really called gatekeeping if some people are simply refusing to work out how a gate functions no matter what color we paint it? Even if we dig the posts down really low into the ground, I am sure those same guys will still trip over the slight lip. Our gate is simply the wrong tool for their specific job. If this were a commercial project, due diligence would suggest we should kindly refuse service.

.oO(not Debian/kFreeBSD but Debian/NT... *Shudder*)
Heh. Cygwin is such a mess that even Debian/NT looks like a clean sanctuary ;)
 
Yeah, the only way for people like us to get the "good stuff" is outside commercial channels. That said, it is all archived nicely on archive.org. If you want newer, the key task is finding the correct HASH for the version you want and then a quick google is enough to find many download opportunities. (The Windows DRM cracks are also pretty decent these days in their mechanism (+open source). They simply run a tiny local activation server emulator and the install activates against localhost).
Yeah, and whenever I find myself going down one of those rabbit holes I wonder why I'm working so hard at using Windows. Maybe that energy would be better spent making free as in freedom operating systems work for me.
 
At this point, Steve Jobs (who I fortunately have never met) would say: You are fixing the symptom. But the symptom only exists because you are thinking about the problem wrong.

A system just isn't supposed to crash. Helping the user debug something like a stop code, an unsupported device, or a similar problem means you are not serving the user's needs and wants. What does the user need and want? A functioning computer. They are not a hacker who likes to build rube-goldberg machines, they want to edit documents, crunch numbers in a spreadsheet, browse the web, listen to music, watch pron, edit movies, or some similar task. So let's built a system for them that serves those things they care about. For example, there is no "install": When you pick up the computer at the store, it is ready to use, after minimal configuration (like entering your name and what login password you want). There is no details about "upgrade": A window comes up saying "your computer needs a 1/2 hour downtime for upgrades, do you want to do it now or wait until later". During the upgrade, all the information you need is a (pretty accurate!) bar that shows progress, and that is a little pessimistic: If it says upgrade will take 1/2 hour, it should finish in about 27 minutes. There are no log entries that users need to see. If the system really misbehaves, you take it back to the store, and if it is within the warranty period, someone will make it work again (after the 3-year warranty expires, you might have to pay for the service). Perhaps by giving you new hardware, and copying the most recent backup from the cloud, which is guaranteed to not lose more than 5 minutes worth of data. If the hardware happens to be unreliable (so the store has to replace too many computers), or the software has too many bugs (so the genius bar folks have to spend too much time reviewing internal logs and straightening things out), that is not an issue the user needs to be bothered with; instead the feedback from the customer support infrastructure has to be directing improvements in engineering and manufacturing.
This practically reverts the age of enlightenment.

In the very old times people did not understand their surroundings. So they started to believe in gods. Gods moving the sun around the earth, gods making the springs supply water and the grain grow. (It wasn't the worst idea, btw.)
Then, about with the greek philosophers, people started to understand their surroundings.
There followed, however, the dark ages medieval, where people did no longer understand these things and instead were expected to simply be obedient to their priests (which got rich and fat in the process).

Finally the age of enlightenment was supposed to put an end to such disempowerment, by giving people the tools and education to indeed understand their surroundings. And, btw, up to this point, all this did just concern the philosophical understanding, because the practical understanding was already given in any case: every village could produce (and, consequentially, understand) more than 99% of the things they needed for everyday life.

Today things have reverted: now we can produce nearly nothing of the things we need for everyday life. So instead of a philosophical inaptitude we now have practical inaptitude. And it doesn't get better from people like Steve Jobs saying this is a good thing. In part these people just aren't conscious themselves and don't really understand what they are doing, in part they get rich and fat as the new priests.

This is a completely different vision of computing, compared to what we typically discuss here on the FreeBSD forum. We are tinkerers, we enjoy playing with our computers and their hardware. We use FreeBSD because ...
It is a question of empowerment: do we understand the things that surround us?
Because if we do not, we are just unwitting targets for manipulation.

If you want things to "just work", you depend on somebody to make them work.
That's okay, but what is the deal? What do you intend to give in return?

Where somebody needs specialized equipment to do their work, basic maintenance of that equipment was always part of the job (with the exception of top-notch artists and sportsmen).

The issue here is rather a genuine mis-alignment: an extremely sophisticated equipment is used for mostly simple tasks (like writing a letter or showing photographs). But why does everybody nowadays need a computer? Given the stance people now have on smartphones, we should ask: how could we actually manage to survive a million years without them? Is this a necessity or rather an addiction?

Traditionally we depended on our clan to survive. Now we depend on a fragile worldscale infrastructure of skills and technologies, while at the same time we are less fraternal than ever. Does this make any sense or is it sheer madness?

Having some nifty new tool that can do things formerly impossible, that is one thing. Expecting the same as a constant commodity that happens all the time (and requires updates every few months), that is rather a runaway process swallowing itself - and then it is no surprise people no longer understand what they are dealing with.

The thing with the Berkeley Software Distribution is that it is one of the most stable and persistent pieces in the whole landscape: if you learned how to operate a unix fourty years ago, most of that knowledge is still useable today - which is not true for many of the other gadgets appearing in this ever-faster spinning circus. And chances are, such knowledge might still be useful another fourty years onwards.
 
If this were actually what was happening, why would maintainers be working on improving installers? 🤔🤪
There is a difference between "improving" something and "hammering down gate-posts".

An improvement could be adding a more powerful ZFS expert tool. Maybe more "complex" is the improvement?
Thats certainly more likely than them adding 3rd party Xorg or Wayland compositors to the installer image for a GUI.

Lets see what comes out shall we? :)
 
As the user you are expected to learn. You weren't born with the ability to use a Mac or Windows either.
Exactly.

With BSD - unixlike - you add knowledge.
But you don't have to relearn everything again when a new version appears.

With every new version of Windows the look and feel is different, such is the structure, the concept,
so is the non-standardized verbiage, several new tinker-toys are added, while some of the old ones are gone, or been remodeled.
It's not really that much, but with Windows you have to relearn its usage over and over again, every couple of years.

I don't want to, but I need to use an OS.
Computering is like a movie.
The OS is the producer.
Not the director. That's me.
Also not the plot, nor the main actor.
Those are the jobs I'm doing with the applications I installed.

For that I only want to learn of the OS what I need.
And that's why I'm so happy with FreeBSD.
FreeBSD (as it is) is actually fun.
'cause to me learning is fun.
With FreeBSD I only have to learn what I need,
because I don't (get) install(ed) junk I don't need/want.
With FreeBSD I have to learn things I need to know once.

With Windows it's no fun.
As I said: It's illogical, non intuitive,... a mess.
And I needed to start all over again every few years - and don't become even better on computers!
With Windows you're forced to spent learning effort without increasing your knowledge, just exchange Windows only related knowledge with another useless junk.
That's crap!
And it's worse since Windows also trys to become part of the plot, doing director's tasks, sticks it's oar into my job - that's not only annoying, that's incapacitation.

I am the master over my slave the machine.
If this is turned upside down, the whole point of machinery, including computers is missed.

Why is RTFM such a hurdle on an OS
Because people are convinced reading is boring, and weary,
while watching a videos is way more fun.

They simply don't get:
All you need is the text.
Doesn't matter if you read it yourself, or listen to somebody reading it for you.

Most simply lack the experience of reading is way faster than listen to a spoken word.
The confuse convinience, with efficieny.
Worse, they prefer convinience over effiency.
But at the same time arguing that was saving energy...:-/

Some actually read as slow as someone talks, or even slower (I'm not talking second grade elimentary.)
That's a serious concern, not to say a disability.

Natural languages are the programming languages of our brains.
Reading texts, expecially books are the single most efficient way of learning.
There is no faster, no more efficient way to gain more knowledge in less time than by reading.
That's a scientific proven fact.

But as I explained:
People don't recognize it.
They don't believe.
They cannot compare.
They will not compare.
They don't put it to a test.
They are too lazy for that.
They don't care.
Okay, but don't try make me believe this convinience bogus, too, 'cause I know better.

They believe Window's unspoken promise:
"You don't need no computer-knowledge at all. It's so easy to use. Look at the fancy colorful GUI with all those funny gadgets!"

Anybody did some computer help for friends, or family know how 'easy', and 'efficient' this usage without learning is.
Common Karen Everyone is completely overloaded with 'complicated' tasks such as 'make a copy of this file...'.
Common Karen Everyone does not know what a drive, or a storage is.
She doesn't have to.
There is a cloud.
You can and shall trust.
:-/
I read somebody once said something very true:
'If you're using a service not paying for you're not the customer but the ware.'
From an economic point of view Windows is ingenious:
Customers pay to be the ware.

Using a power tool like FreeBSD requires learning. Installing it requires learning. Learning is good for you. Deal with it. It's not like FreeBSD is being created purposefully to be difficult to understand. On the contrary, in fact.
100% agree.
Particulary I love 'power tool'. 😌

FreeBSD, BSD, unix(like) is designed to be comprehensive.
What seems to be difficult is simply the sheer amount of stuff modern computers come with, especially with networking/internet.

Windows makes it easy by simply wipe many things from the menu.
Less on board = less to learn = simplified
Therefor you get zillions of colours, and themes you can change the look, simulates the feeling of 'setting up your computer.'

It seems complicated and weary when you set up a FreeBSD machine to become quickly as Windows-like as possible. Because then you subconsciously realize three things:

1. How much junk a Windows machine has all already installed by default.
(First thing mostly it is to become as colorful, and overloaded as Windows.
Why?! What for? Ever asked yourself if you really need all this junk?)

2. So many choices you have on junk.
You never needed to bother, because Microsoft already did the decisions for you:
Eat what you're feeded, and you don't need to bother with a complex menu, containing such uncomprehensable things like starters - hot, and cold, soup, salad, not to mention first, second, ... - side dish?!... - dessert?! Drinks?! Will it ever stop!?! Just feed me!
Of course. Open your mouth! Here it comes: The lukewarm Windows mulligan stew!
By default applied with a funnel and a tube.
We even decide for you, when you're full.
Bitters come extra by Norton, Kaspersky, ...

3. You know shit.
You realize the game is way more than just moving between 'Go', 'Free Parking', 'Go to Jail', and 'Jail'
And you're almost at 'Go' anyway.

But then you're missing the point.
Don't set up a FreeBSD machine to become Windows-like.
Set up a FreeBSD machine!
Forget the crap!
Accept the fact it's crap, and welcome to the pleasure dome!

Just because you're started with and used to it doesn't make Windows the reference.
Windows is no reference.
Unix is.

People sacrifice everything for even the hunch of more comfort.

To me it's:
Let them have there way.

But please I don't need nobody telling me I need to be also that dumb.
I been in this Windows hell for almost twenty years, and happy I'm not only out of it, but now I am in heaven.
I have no problem with learning, reading texts.
Even books containing several hundreds of pages don't fear me.
In the contrary, I love books.

There are already way than enough turn-key more-or-less Windows-like Linux, or BSD-based system.
Chose one of those.
Or start your own one, another one based on FreeBSD.



If I didn't found yet the autoconfiguring turn-key OS suits my individual, personal needs perfectly,
within this large number of existing attempts to reach that goal,
to me it's not the question to keep on with my quest, and even try to turn an OS into such.

To me is to reconsider if my premises are right.
 
… FreeBSD takes the approach of showing you all the messages, whether you need them or not. … overwhelming to non-computer-savvy folks, …

It can be more or less verbose than what's seen by default.

loader.conf(5) can have this:

boot_mute="YES"

– although when I last checked, this mute was not effective for the init(8) stage of a normal boot process, i.e. multi-user mode.

I'd recommend it only where a system is already known good to reach a login prompt or display manager.

… Perhaps a STOP screen should display the last 20 console messages and say "When you report or look up this error, please include these messages" or something like that. …

Console messages may be misleading, a distraction from the true cause(s) of a kernel panic.

less /var/crash/info.last

That's not a substitute for a STOP screen, however it should (at least) include the panic string, which can be a useful starting point.
 
Thats revolutionary?

I see barely any of them out in the wild. Its not like Apple's iPod/iPhone that completely changed the way people thought about phones (IMO for the worse)
Apple became with it the biggest watch maker on the planet, so you must be definitely not paying enough attention.
 
Me I just use FreeBSD to show off, if we do go 30 years back I could not do it, but thanks to the devs now it's easy to install and have a shinny desktop environment, but I don't know how to use the system! :) so until everything breaks I'll be smiling and pretending I'm a black hat hacker. :)

Screenshot_20240823_163735.png


I'm kidding by the way...
 
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