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On the desktop: FreeBSD vs PC-BSD vs Debian

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hashime

Active Member

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It's funny because your suggested solutions aren't any more straight forward than setting up an account on Bugzilla or posting the issue on the mailing list; using a web browser. If you want involvement from the community for help, you have to do your part as well. You are only compounding the problem when you complain without perseverance.
I disagree. It's starts by finding out where to report it, searching the web for it, knowing what bugzilla even is, setting up an account, finding out where exactly to post it to, gathering the information needed with various commands most users need to google for.
Or typing one command/clicking one button which gathers all the information needed and submits it to launchpad.
Sure, not a problem for most people here on the forums, but for the *vast* majority of PC users it is.
Most people don't know what a bug report is, how to do it, hell most people don't even know the difference between MS Word and MS Windows. Those people can't use FreeBSD, they can use Ubuntu though (like my mum).

wblock@ I actually agree. But most people don't know this and expect a ready to use system, with working USB, Wifi, graphics etc. FreeBSD website even advertises it like that
"FreeBSD is an advanced computer operating system used to power modern servers, desktops and embedded platforms"
So iI partly understand the confusion/disappointment of some users here, but not the unnecessary rudeness.
What iI don't get is people pushing FreeBSD Desktop to clearly novice users not equipped to handle it, be it because of time constrains or knowledge.

Again, not hating on FreeBSD, iI am happily using it on most of my servers because of its simplicity but iI would never consider it on a Desktop, not even PC-BSD and that comes from a user whose last actively used Windows OS was Windows 95.
 
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Beastie7

Well-Known Member

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I disagree. It's starts by finding out where to report it, searching the web for it, knowing what bugzilla even is, setting up an account, finding out where exactly to post it to, gathering the information needed with various commands most users need to google for.
Or typing one command/clicking one button which gathers all the information needed and submits it to launchpad.
Sure, not a problem for most people here on the forums, but for the *vast* majority of PC users it is.
Most people don't know what a bug report is, how to do it, hell most people don't even know the difference between MS Word and MS Windows. Those people can't use FreeBSD, they can use Ubuntu though (like my mum).
I completely agree, that's why we have such amazing documentation! :) However, a lot of stuff in the handbook seems to be hidden from the main site, outdated, or hard to find. The website needs a severe overhaul because it's not navigable at all given the amount of info there is. The devs should pay more attention to stuff like this.
 

Patrick Bär

Member

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Messages: 52

I think you highly overestimate the level of involvement and knowledge of the average user.
Exactly! In my example story I thought I made clear, that the user, who is not a student, nor a geek, nor a hobby-programmer, doesn't have time or energy or whatever to wait for some bugreport to be read and/or a patch to be written. Imagine some car brand, which breaks down on some random streets. What would you do? Choose an alternative route to avoid the street? File a complaint to the manufacturer and wait at your broken car, until the mechanics have developed a new improved part? Or simply dump that lemon and buy one that can be driven down any street?

Oh I will get a lot of hate for the lemon, but maybe this time some people will understand, that an OS is a tool, not a hobby.
 

ANOKNUSA

Aspiring Daemon

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Sure, not a problem for most people here on the forums, but for the *vast* majority of PC users it is.
And so we've come back around to my original point: that a person does not know something only tells us that they do not know something. It says nothing about the thing of which they are ignorant. The work of the knowledgeable and competent is not invalidated by the ignorance and incompetence of others. There is nothing inherently wrong with being ignorant of or incompetent at something--all of us are ignorant of and incompetent at most things in this world. What's wrong is when people use their own lack of knowledge or skill as a basis to judge the work of others or the quality of a thing they know little or nothing about. The (unfair) assessment of a Unix-like operating system as "good for the desktop" is not and has never been merely a matter of whether it can function as a fully capable desktop--it's whether it can function as a fully capable desktop with as little learning or effort on the part of the user as possible. No *nix system will fully fit that mold. And so it will always be, because the world does not simply conform to any odd person's assumptions. Case in point:

But most people don't know this and expect a ready to use system, with working USB, Wifi, graphics etc. FreeBSD website even advertises it like that
"FreeBSD is an advanced computer operating system used to power modern servers, desktops and embedded platforms"
It is absolutely true that FreeBSD is used in those capacities. That does not mean it reads your mind and automatically works to fulfil whatever need you want it to. It does not try to do everything for everybody straight out of the box--that's by design, and one reason many people choose FreeBSD in the first place. If you read that sentence and assumed FreeBSD would automatically work exactly as you wanted, that's on you; it isn't stated that FreeBSD does everything out-of-the-box, and the fact that a FreeBSD install is very minimal isn't exactly hidden information.* It may indeed be true that FreeBSD in its present state cannot fulfil your needs, at it may be true that FreeBSD will never fulfil your needs, because it's simply not the sort of platform you want it to be. But again, that's not what I take issue with--it's the notion that an operating system cannot function in a particular capacity, simply because it does not do so from the moment one clicks "Install," or work as one might assume it "should just work."

*The website design really does need to be touched-up, though. Too much trivial information crammed on the main page, too much valuable information tucked away.
 

Oko

Daemon

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Exactly! In my example story I thought I made clear, that the user, who is not a student, nor a geek, nor a hobby-programmer, doesn't have time or energy or whatever to wait for some bugreport to be read and/or a patch to be written.
One issue that I have with FreeBSD community is that they have never had a guts to make clear that FreeBSD is not intended for those users. That should be the first sentence anybody who stumbles upon FreeBSD website can see. FreeBSD is first and foremost research playground and an excellent base for various specialized product. People who need help using Skype to call their grandmother should call Microsoft customer service support.

Oh I will get a lot of hate for the lemon, but maybe this time some people will understand, that an OS is a tool, not a hobby.
We perfectly understand that. So why don't you continue to surf the web for those new pair of sneakers from Windows 8 which came with your laptop and allow us who actually use FreeBSD to study, run business, or simply have fun with our brain cells to do our things.
 

Patrick Bär

Member

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Messages: 52

Really, I opened up this thread for the mere reason of making a decision. Seing the hate and overestimation you two show to those, who criticise FreeBSD is distressing. Look how offensive and insulting you breath fire and brimstone at me for saying, that something is not perfect.
 

scottro

Daemon

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I've kind of lost track of the argument here. :) I think that it's true--the average user who isn't into computers will want something to just work. FreeBSD really isn't aimed at that user. Some of the Linux systems are, but they've gotten something like 2 percent of the desktop if that, all divided among their different factions and I would be willing to wager that those who aren't students, geeks and everything else mentioned, have friends who are.

I would respectfully disagree with Oko for that reason. My wife, for example, wouldn't come across FreeBSD and say, Gee, I'll download that. She uses her Mac and her iPad and she's happy. I don't know of any laymen, so to speak, of my acquaintance, who says, Oh let me download FreeBSD. They're into whatever they're into, rather than operating systems.

One friend of hers uses Lubuntu, because I set it up for her, and she decided it was worth the fact that she can't easily sync it with her iTunes because she mostly uses her iPad for that. But again, though she's the so called average user, she had someone who isn't set it up. In my opinion, if someone wants to avoid Mac for the cost and Windows for any reason (or Mac for any reason, but they're expensive) but doesn't really want to stop their work to learn about the system, one of the Linux systems that is aimed at the desktop, like Mint, is probably the best choice.

So, anyway, most of the FreeBSD community is nice. The official position, if there is one, is probably what's in the myths section of the advocacy section.
*BSD is better than (insert other system)
This is user opinion only.

(insert some other system) is better than *BSD
This is user opinion only.
Hrrm, tried to copy and paste from the page, https://www.freebsd.org/advocacy/myths.html#beats I guess it got the fonts too.
 

wblock@

Administrator
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Administrator
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Developer

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This is not so much a search for something that "just works", it is that "just works" is very subjective. "That stupid Ferrari doesn't even have a trailer hitch! That stupid helicopter can't even fly faster than sound! That stupid goldfish can't even catch a ball!"

Things that are different are not necessarily broken. Sometimes it is the expectations that are broken.

This thread has probably already gone on too long. Let's go do something else.
 
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